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Kolanaki, do games w Todd Howard says Starfield mod support is on the way next year
!deleted6508 avatar

Jesus. That pattern someone recognized with the releases of the toolset for each game might have been right on the money. The last game it took 6 months. The previous game was 3. Before that it was under 2. Starfield’s will come in a year 😩

Dr_Cog,
@Dr_Cog@mander.xyz avatar

Technically next year is in ~3.5 months. It could launch in January

circuitfarmer, do games w Todd Howard says Starfield mod support is on the way next year
@circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

The important shit is getting done already. The community isn’t going to wait for a toolkit.

And the things that toolkit likely allow aren’t really what modders want to change, anyway. I don’t think anyone wants to add quests, but fixing broken things seems to be the goal of the current mods.

thanevim,

What makes you think modders aren't interested in making quests? Have you seen Fusion City Rising for Fallout 4?

circuitfarmer,
@circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

I just meant that the game is really long as it is. I think QoL stuff is probably the focus before quests.

Chailles,
@Chailles@lemmy.world avatar

Modders aren’t single minded collectives. A modder who wants to make a quest mod will make a quest regardless of the inconveniences a QoL mod they could have made would have fixed.

Endorkend, do games w Todd Howard says Starfield mod support is on the way next year
@Endorkend@kbin.social avatar

He just wants to give modders more time to fix the mess of bugs Bethesda left unresolved, before giving them an easy method to create new content.

trash, do games w Todd Howard says Starfield mod support is on the way next year

Laughs is 24fps on PC

Potatos_are_not_friends, do games w Todd Howard says Starfield mod support is on the way next year

Ah, “official” mod support.

Because I’m running mods right now. PcMasterRace and all.

dudewitbow,

Its moreso creation kit. Without it, some mods are really hard to make.

AllonzeeLV,

We literally have Stormtroopers 9 days in, I’m not worried

dudewitbow,

Full model replacements are typically not hard, especially if theyre being used as a replacment for already existing assets vs creating a new asset and item id for.

Its like the modding scene for both brawl and umvc3.

It only starts off with replacing already exiting assets, but it wont explode till you figure out how to add custom assets. Brawls point was when project m devs found how to add character slots, umvc3 was when they figured out similar + making fully custom models/animations without having to borrow existing ones.

You need the tools to exist to get to the blowup point.

n3m37h,

Monetized mod support

kilodelta, do games w Starfield user score drops to "mostly positive" on steam

Is it just me, or do the planets look like they have no lighting at all? (Playing on Xbox Series X)

AllonzeeLV,

They look completely lit to me, there’s just very little shade in most cases. PC RTX 2070. Stuck in the 30fps club with you though.

Ranvier,

There seems to be a bug with the main star/sun not showing up in some amd cards. I don’t recall if Xbox has this glitch, but it does use an amd card as well so seems possible. Hopefully Bethesda or amd or whoever is responsible for the bug can fix it soon.

PM_ME_FEET_PICS,

That’s a bug.

AllonzeeLV, do games w Starfield user score drops to "mostly positive" on steam

Modern gamers are self-destructive. Nothing is good enough, and because every AAA release gets torn down and review bombed in one way or another, most and eventually all games from developers with the resources to make something of scale will become pay to win, microtransaction based garbage.

Because if they can’t please their audience and lose all passion for the craft because of it, they’ll just say fuck it go straight for the credit cards of those that do show up.

I’ve played about 70 hours so far. If you like the genre but starfield doesn’t wow you, I don’t think you’re able to be pleased. Is it perfect? No. Is it at absolute minimum an A grade? Absolutely.

GregorGizeh,

I agree that we should appreciate well made games. But those are already beloved all around and praised at every turn, I don’t know how the people could be more supportive.

Think BG3, think Elden Ring. Even CP77, after a very rough release, is in a pretty good state now and about to receive a dlc + update that delivers many things originally promised; allowing the developer to recuperate a lot of the lost good will with the customers.

The point is, people still love good games. Just that starfield is pretty mediocre. Not a bad game by any means, but it feels like a lot of compromises, loading screens and reused assets.

sugar_in_your_tea,

One of the major disappointments imo is that space isn’t interesting. You only really go there for the odd ship battle to progress the plot or whatever, but you can’t really fly between planets, so you miss out on the cool side stories you get with Elder Scrolls games by walking between cities. I was hoping for Firefly the Bethesda game, but it’s just Skyrim stretched across planets that you fast travel between.

I want to find ships in distress, pirate outposts among asteroid fields, scuttled ships I can scavenge, etc. In other words, space should be a mechanic, not just a setting.

I think the planets are fine, but I’d rather have fewer, more densely populated planets. I don’t think space-colonizing people would only make 3-4 settlements per planet, there would be dozens if not hundreds of settlements before moving to the next planet. I’d rather buy a DLC to get access to more systems then current setup where everything is spread out. In fact, just give me Sol with Earth, Mars, and maybe one of a Jupiter’s moons being inhabited with the rest working like the planets in Starfield.

But no, it’s just Skyrim set it space, with fast travel between cities. That’s fine, just not particularly special. I may play it at some point, but it’s not what I’m looking for right now.

neokabuto, (edited )

The scale is definitely too big. I’m pretty sure most of the systems are pretty much there just to fill in the star map. I’d rather have a setting where maybe interstellar FTL requires a sublight trip first so only the nearest few stars to Sol are accessible. Really I just want Everspace 2 where I can hop out of my ship occasionally and deal with fewer annoying “puzzles”.

I want to find ships in distress, pirate outposts among asteroid fields, scuttled ships I can scavenge, etc. In other words, space should be a mechanic, not just a setting.

The problem is that they let people skip the space parts arbitrarily often (sometimes planets make me stop to get scanned, sometimes I can go from ground to ground). All of those are encounters that happen, but if you fast travel you won’t see them. I have warped in and seen each of those, with ships in distress even landing near me to ask for help when I’m on the ground. Although the only actual pirate outpost in space AFAIK is the Crimson Fleet base and Everspace 2 does everything in space way better.

sugar_in_your_tea, (edited )

The fact that you can’t space walk without cheats is what I’m getting at. I want to be able to leave the ship to go investigate some wreckage, get into someone’s airlock to bring some needed supplies to a stranded vessel, or set up a mining outpost on an asteroid. Basically, the same feel you get when walking between towns in Elder Scrolls games, but with the unique mechanics space allows.

Starfield does a lot of things pretty well, but doesn’t really stand out in any of them. There’s a lot of elements of a great game there, but it just ends up being pretty good instead. That’s still awesome and it’ll sell well, but I am looking for that special something, and I’m basically seeing Skyrim in space. Not a lot of innovation, just a mapping of that formula into a space setting.

Honytawk,

Try joining the FreeStar Collective, which is Wild West Scifi just like Firefly.

You’ll get the same types of stories and encounters. Including distressed ships, pirate outposts among asteroid field and scuttled ships you can scavenge.

TBH, I haven’t missed any of the other mechanics you mention. Yeah would be cool to do a space walk, but is it really necessary?

sugar_in_your_tea,

It would be more immersive, just like flying into and out of planets with no loading screen would. Their Elder Scrolls games nailed that immersion, yet Starfield went backward with a bunch of loading screens and limitations.

It’s still a pretty good game, like an 8/10 or so, but to really get that GOTY 10/10 rating, they need to excel at something. Either have better immersion, or limit the scope in some way to improve other aspects of the game.

MotoAsh,

A good artist doesn’t do their art to please everyone, and knows that is a fool’s errand.

Stop projecting the failures of management on to the creatives.

jjjalljs,

Ehh I don’t know. We recently had both bg3 and elden ring. Both had near universal praise and no pay to win or micro transaction nonsense.

Kaldo,
@Kaldo@kbin.social avatar

Hi-Fi Rush, Remnant 2 as well in the AA area. It's been a pretty good year tbh

Silverseren,

Well made games get praised for being well made games and get the accolades and attention they deserve, at least on the AAA level.

If a AAA game isn't receiving that, then it's probably not a well made game.

Shiggles,

C is a passing grade. B is pretty decent. A implies you excelled.

I would say B is more than fair. It’s surprisingly not garbage for a bethesda title. It’s not the second coming of christ.

dangblingus,

There’s a lot of gamers out there who believe they are Bethesda fans, and this is one of the first times they’ve actually had to reconcile the game’s quality vs the developer they think consistently puts out good games. The amount of comments displaying obvious buyers remorse masquerading as defense of the game is hilarious.

BananaTrifleViolin,

I dunno, I think it's a game somewhat damned by faint praise. I hear "It's good, not great" a lot and I get it. If you like Skyrim you will like Starfield. But I'd say the big achievement is to scale up a game like Skyrim into such a big playspace.

It's certainly good quality in terms of the look and what they've technically achieved. But the actual gameplay isn't that far away from what they did in Skyrim and Fallout. I get it - if it ain't broke, don't fix it - but to be honest it feels a little dated. And No Man's Sky does alot of the non-RPG elements better.

It's been a strong year for games; and look at Baldur's Gate 3 - that game actually pushed forward narrative game play.

Starfield is huge and interesting, but ultimately a bit samey. I think the "ocean wide, inch deep" is too far and unfair but the basic concept kinda applies in a crude way. Baldur's Gate 3 is smaller in scope but so much richer and varied. Time was Bethesda was the undisputed king of RPGs, but I think CDProject Red supassed them with the story telling in Witcher 3 (and then fell back with Cyberpunk 2077) and now Larian have supassed both with Baldur's Gate 3.

It's a good game, but it's impact is dimmed a bit by what else has come. It'll make a ton of money and probably be around for years, but it doesn't feel the same huge leap forward as when Skyrim came out. But hey, hard act to follow to be fair.

PM_ME_FEET_PICS,

BG3 has very weak rpg and story telling elements.

Honytawk, (edited )

You have not played BG3 I see.

It is actually a Role Playing Game as in you get to decide what role (aka character) you want to play, unlike some of the other “RPGs” out there (looking at you Witcher).

PM_ME_FEET_PICS,

Played and 100% completed the game.

The Witcher series is a role-playing game. You are playing the role of the Witcher.

Your concept of what a role-playing game is very weak. From your idea of what a role playing game is I can call Battlefield 2042 a role-playing game.

hyperhopper,

There are so many actually good games out there, you need to branch out more if your bar for an A is that low

dangblingus,

You sound like you need to play more games. Gamers generally have every right to hate AAA games these days, as they are, categorically, not A grade games.

sugar_in_your_tea,

I guess that depends on how narrowly you define “genre.” It’s a pretty good sandbox RPG, and it’ll get even better with community mods. If that’s what you’re looking for, it’s great and way better than pretty much anything else.

But if you broaden it a bit, it has a mediocre story, mediocre combat, and mediocre exploration. So compared to other RPGs, it’s really not special.

So I’d give it a B grade. It gets Cs in many areas, but the sandbox is good enough to pull it up to a B. To get to A, it needs to excel at something, like exploration (e.g. do more with the ship in space) or economy (e.g. invest in trade routes and impact the cost of goods by flooding the market). But it doesn’t really excel at anything, it’s basically the same formula they’ve had in the past with a different setting.

It’s still a good game, it just doesn’t stand out in any particular way. For everything it does, another game does it better, and it really needs to be the best at something to get an A from me.

CarlsIII, do gaming w Meet Diablo 4 and Path of Exile's biggest rival, an ARPG designed and built by Redditors

“Built by redditors” is a pretty huge knock against it

Gordon_Freeman,
@Gordon_Freeman@kbin.social avatar

idk, at this point even "built by an amoeba" sounds better than "built by an AAA studio that cares about nothing but microtransactions"

Leshoyadut,
@Leshoyadut@kbin.social avatar

They truly did pick the worst description for it possible. I’ve had a lot of fun with it, though. Pretty solid game for being in beta, and the devs seem decently in-tune with the community.

loobkoob,

It was somewhat less of a knock when they first started making the game; it was a successful Kickstarter project ~5 years ago so it's been in development for a while. For what it's worth, I've got ~250 hours in the game and think it's shaping up really well (you can find my not-so-mini-review elsewhere in this thread).

Art3sian, do games w Starfield user score drops to "mostly positive" on steam
@Art3sian@lemmy.world avatar

I love Starfield. My mates love Starfield. It’s Fallout meets No Man’s Sky meets Mass Effect.

It’s just another kick ass Bethesda game in a long list of kick ass Bethesda games IMO.

ShadowRam,

its a solid B

75/100

It's good.

It's not earth shattering, its not game of the year.

It scratches that Skyrim RPG itch but in space.

It's less buggy and less crashy than people were expecting.

It's not without its flaws.

It's a solid B

CaptPretentious,

This might be the most concise and accurate review I’ve seen. Nothing long winded, no excuses, no fanboyism, being fair and holding it up as it is.

lemmyvore,

That wasn’t a review, it was a bunch of statements stringed together. At most it could be the conclusion of a review.

A review needs to offer some explanations about what’s good (or bad) and why.

Rai,

You didn’t comment. You just said a bunch of words stringed together.

Cethin,

Personally I’d give it like a C or maybe B- at the top. It’s fine, but there are so many missing basic quality of life features that should be there.

My biggest gripes are all focused on outposts though. Outposts seemed to be one of the focuses from the marketing material, but they’re a pain in the ass to actually use. There’s somehow no list of the outposts you have, let alone a way to view what they’re producing. Outposts need to be linked together, but there’s no way to sort or auto-delete items, so it all eventually will get clogged up with lead, or whatever other resource doesn’t get used often. You’ll have to manually go through your containers to remove the clog and just dump it on the ground, where it’ll remain for the rest of your playthrough. There’s no snapping for anything except storage containers and the habitation modules. Everything else has to be placed by hand with manual rotations, so nothing is ever lined up. The alignment will also change after you place an object, so literally nothing will ever be aligned.

I have issues with many other parts of the game too, but outposts seem so incomplete, and somehow generally worse than what we had in FO4. Yet, outposts were prominent in their marketing. How?

timespace, (edited )

I’m not sure where you’re from, but in the US a 75/100 is a C. B would be 80-89.

fritata_fritato,

In nz or Australia a C was 50%.

ShadowRam,

50 > D
60 > C
70 > B
80 > A
90 > A+

wccrawford,

Where I’m from, 94-100 was an A, so 74-83 was still a C, but it would just squeak by.

Silverseren,

So Fallout 4 and Fallout 76 were kickass Bethesda games?

thanevim,

They were certainly Bethesda games. I'm not even remotely fond of multiplayer fallout. But for 4, it's a marvelous modding world that I've sunk over a thousand hours into.

Norgur,

And thanks to their cultish adherence to their engine, I could copy paste some mods between Skyrim and Fallout.

Art3sian,
@Art3sian@lemmy.world avatar

Bethesda made way more games than that. Are you new to gaming? You should check out their website.

Silverseren,

But those are their most recent offerings. I care more about the quality of what they produce now and not their glory days decades ago.

Art3sian,
@Art3sian@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, so you ARE aware of their other games and you were just cherry picking the ones that weren’t as popular? Now with that brought to light, you’re changing the date parameters to suit your narrative?

You’re very good at this.

Silverseren,

All I "cherry picked" was their two most recent games that have actually been published in the past decade.

hypelightfly,

Technically Skyrim has also been published in the past decade, and even more recently than Fallout 4. In fact it's been released 5 times since Fallout 4.

BruceTwarzen,

This is the moat insane thing i have ever heard. Or it's some sort of burn because how shit they are.

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

I've never played 76, but 4 is one of my favorite games of all time. I think most people who didn't like it were going into it desiring for it to be something it wasn't. What it was impeccably good at was being a scavenging looter shooter with addicting weapon and armor modification and a fun outpost building system that wasn't for me, but did let me make my own little home.

CaptainEffort,

I just wanted a well written rpg. Guess that’s on me.

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

Definitely not Bethesda's strong suit and not what I go to their games for. Their NPC interaction is made up of tons of awkward TMI introductions and dialogue too quirky to take seriously most of the time. That's a valid criticism, I would not say Fallout 4 is well written. I think it has some interesting premises like the whole synth idea, but not a well executed story.

The only overall story I really thought was good in that game was Paladin Danse's quest chain.

PM_ME_FEET_PICS,

Fallout 4 was a great game, but like Fallout 3, was a terrible Fallout game. Fallout 4 is what Fallout 3 should have been.

Poggervania,
@Poggervania@kbin.social avatar

Bruh, Bethesda arguably peaked like 20 years ago with Morrowind. Everything else since has been more or less downhill lol.

Dee,
@Dee@lemmings.world avatar

Ah, a fellow N’wah.

Instigate,

What the fuck did you call me you S’wit?! I ain’t no fetcher!

Dee, (edited )
@Dee@lemmings.world avatar

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you filthy Imperial? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in House Telvanni, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Black Marsh, and I have over 300 confirmed farm equipment kills. I am trained in Dunmer warfare and I’m the top battlemage in the entire Vvardenfell armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision spells the likes of which has never been seen before in this realm, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across Cyrodiil and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the ash storm, scrib. The ash storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with conjuration. Not only am I extensively trained in alchemical combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Sixth House and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn N’wah. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

Brought to you by the Great House Telvanni.

CaptainEffort,

Their only great game since Morrowind wasn’t even made by them.

Art3sian,
@Art3sian@lemmy.world avatar

I will agree, Morrowind was an amazing game.

abraxas, (edited )

My guilty pleasure is to install Morrowind again and commit to replaying it, but to instead do another Skyrim playthrough because I just have more fun for some reason.

There’s something about the newer Bethesda games. I’ll go and install legacy games from other companies all the time for the sense of nostalgia, but despite having beaten almost all of them going back to Arena, if I want a Bethesda game I always end up playing Skyrim or FO4. And now (I presume) Starfield

hyperhopper,

It’s another subpar Bethesda game in a long line of subpar Bethesda games. Lifeless bland NPCs, tons of glitches, bad gameplay issues, and the same “shallow ocean” criticisms we’ve been going over since Skyrim.

sugar_in_your_tea,

It’s clear to me that Bethesda thinks Skyrim was peak Elder Scrolls, when I think Morrowind was peak Elder Scrolls. Unfortunately, it seems too much to ask for a decent story and interesting side content.

So I just don’t buy Bethesda games anymore. I was disappointed in Skyrim, and Fallout 4 wasn’t really my thing. It also doesn’t help that I don’t like the leveling mechanics of RPGs either and tend to prefer ARPGs like Ys and Zelda where leveling isn’t a major part of the game loop. I know what Bethesda offers, and it’s just not what I’m looking for these days. I play RPGs for story and immersion, not for graphics, character builds, and mods, and Bethesda seems to be more interested in the latter than the former.

But that’s what I appreciate from Bethesda. They’re pretty consistent at delivering a certain experience, it just so happens that it’s not for me.

PM_ME_FEET_PICS,

You want bland NPCs then you should play BG3.

sturmblast,

this is how I feel about it

KidsTryThisAtHome,

I wish it was as good as No Man’s Sky

hubobes,

Anything is better than No Man Sky, after a trillion updates they still haven’t fixed the one issue the game has. There is only a single planet but a million copies of it with different colors.

Ataraxia,

And de-synch issues and lack of flight stick support (regardless of steam, who cares about that). Also repetitive missions.

KidsTryThisAtHome,

From what I’ve seen that’s also starfield lol, the same desert planets copy/pasted with different colored smoke/sand

hubobes, (edited )

Yes but planets like that are realistically quite common. The ones with special features and biomes however are few but quite well done. Really not comparable.

PM_ME_FEET_PICS,

Really has a Freelancer vipe to it as well.

ampersandrew, do gaming w Meet Diablo 4 and Path of Exile's biggest rival, an ARPG designed and built by Redditors
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

In-app purchases, requires 3rd party account, and no LAN. I think their biggest rivals are Grim Dawn still getting expansions and that new Titan Quest.

yukichigai,
@yukichigai@kbin.social avatar

In-app purchases, requires 3rd party account, and no LAN.

Wow. I'm barely willing to put up with that for a free game. Not a chance I'm gonna deal with that for a thrice-delayed game by a rookie studio.

woelkchen, do games w Starfield user score drops to "mostly positive" on steam
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t understand the people who spend a hundred hours on a game to then give it a bad rating, calling it boring. Why don’t they just quit much earlier and play Chrono Trigger or something?

9point6,

The world would be a better place if more people just played Chrono Trigger when they got upset at a game.

Honestly moba fans alone would make it the best selling game of all time

CaptPretentious,

Well they kept getting told this game is a slow burn, so they kept at it, waiting for the fun.

(Just cracking a joke here folks, based off the reports it takes a dozen hours for it to get good)

hypelightfly,

I have about 30 hours in it now. I wouldn't say it gets any better over that time, if you didn't like it at the beginning you won't like it after 30 hours.

rubicon88,

With some games after 20+ hours the honeymoon phase is over. But I want to finish it so that all this time doesn’t feel wasted. And there’s hope that the game will get better. I mean everybody else loves it so it must be a great game right?

However, often it just feels like work and it makes the flaws of the game even more obvious. And I just end up despising it.

burgundymyr,

This is the best answer, players are invested after a certain point, but the realization that they don’t like the game comes later in the process. The more you play the game you don’t like the more you’re frustrated with it and the more likely you are to give it a poor rating, especially when the things that are your biggest complaints feel like obvious bug fixes that should have already happened, but continue to exist.

DScratch,

Hello, I have 80 hours on Skyrim recorded in Steam.

I do not like Skyrim.

donslaught,

80 hours? Have you even made it to Whiterun?

sugar_in_your_tea,

Why did you spend so much time with it then? Surely you would’ve stopped after a few hours of not enjoying yourself, no?

DScratch,

That is a great question! I’ve certainly asked myself the same thing and the only answer I can come up with in 2 parts.

1: The game is compulsive. While you are playing you want to keep playing. And while the moment to moment interactions are dull (imo) but not so dull as to drive me away. There may be plenty of Oblivion nostalgia keeping me playing.

2: Many of the games problems appear in retrospect. The dumbing down of the subsystems, for example. Much like Outer Worlds; it feels fine while you’re in there but once you stop and step back you realise how crappy they are.

That’s all I got for now.

CaptainEffort, (edited )

You can put a ton of hours into a game and not like it. This isn’t a new concept.

Ask any LoL or Destiny 2 player.

But in all seriousness, sometimes a game is just too massive to form an opinion on in any reasonable amount of time.

ManjuuLemmy,

Yes, this was exactly how I felt when playing Fire Emblem Engage. God. I hated how the hub world basically sucked an equal amount of time for each map I cleared. Sure, the mini-games are optional,But so is brushing your teeth.

I may be getting older but it feels like a lot of games are just padding their runtime with gameplay that doesn’t mesh well at all.

SkyNTP,

To be fair, the game is so massive, any review (positive or negative) done on less than 60 hours probably won’t do the game justice. It’s entirely possible to hold hope for redeeming qualities only to be a bit disappointed in the end.

woelkchen,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Customers aren’t professional reviewers. Paying customers are entitled to have their opinion at any time. Tiny Tina’s Wonderland immediately put me off with that lame overworld. I think I clocked around 3 hours and then uninstalled it. Never ever would I spend dozens of hours in a game where a significant portion massively annoys me.

sugar_in_your_tea,

IDK, I think 10 hours is plenty for any game, and 2 hours is enough for most. By two hours, you’ve likely discovered the core gameplay loop and seen how it handles progression, and by 10 hours you’ve seen whether that core gameplay loop changes throughout the game.

I don’t like negative reviews for games when they’ve spent double the time HLTB gives for a playthrough. I don’t expect to play much more than “main + extras” on any game, so any review that’s expecting content beyond that just isn’t useful for me.

Honytawk, (edited )

The thing is, with big RPGs like Starfield, you decide what your core gameplay loop is. It has multiple.

So if you find out the core gameplay loop is not for you after 2 hours, you can just try an other one.

sugar_in_your_tea,

But it doesn’t excel at any of those play styles. It’s the classic case of “Jack of all trades, master of none.”

I guess it’s fine if it’s the only game you play, but if you have choice, I don’t see why you’d pick Starfield over other games you could get. It’s kind of like the cult around Minecraft, you can play pretty much any style you want with mods (e.g. soccer, Pokemon, roller coaster, etc), but every style is done much better in a standalone game.

So I give Starfield an 8/10 or a B, it’s pretty good, but it doesn’t really stand out in any particular way.

Cethin,

Honestly, the games that take the most time I often have more negative opinions about. The Assassin’s Creed games, for example, purposefully waste your time. They shove a bunch of junk in and try to make you interact with it when I could be doing something enjoying with my time. Enjoyment per hour should be the measure of a good game, not hours alone. If the game takes me 300h to complete and I only enjoyed 10h of that, it’s a bad game.

Honytawk,

Yes exactly!

Games are meant to entertain. If they aren’t fun or force you to do unfun things, then why waste your time on them?

I got the same with collectibles in games. Chasing collectibles is boring to me, and you will never see me going for one that isn’t directly on my path. It is meaningless fluff.

Astroturfed,

I’m sorry, are you mocking me for replaying Chrono trigger? That shit is a masterpiece.

woelkchen,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Chrono Trigger was the first example of a game that came to my head that’s just great. I replayed it a few weeks ago as well. It’s time better spent than playing a shitty game for 100 hours.

sugar_in_your_tea,

IDK, I bailed around halfway through. I got to the Magus fight, and it felt really RNG dependent. If he attacked in a certain order, I would lose a team member and eventually lose because I couldn’t keep up with healing.

Maybe I was too low level, or maybe I didn’t have the right items equipped, IDK, but I completely lost interest when I failed several times without knowing what to do differently except hope that he attacked in a different order. So I bailed.

Maybe I’ll try it again sometime. I originally played on my phone, but maybe I’ll have more patience on my Steam Deck. I really enjoyed the game up to that point, but I just couldn’t bear the RNG. I have no problem failing over and over (I love the early Ys games and some bosses took a dozen tries), but I need to see some sort of progress.

DrQuint,

If a narrative-heavy game takes 60 hours and then fucks it up on the third act, it deserves the hate. Games having a bad payoff 200% warrants bad reviews.

Oh sorry, this isn’t a Danganronpa thread.

MrScottyTay,

Wait you think danganronpa fucks up it’s third act? I was absolutely hooked from start to finish for danganronpa 1 and 2. Not yet had the time to play 3 properly yet though but I’ve looked what I’ve played so far.

DrQuint,

Nobody tell him.

MrScottyTay,

I’m still confused, do you genuinely think the first game has a shitty third act?

DrQuint,

It’s the third game that has… issues.

But you gotta see it to believe it.

DrQuint,

If a narrative-heavy game takes 60 hours and then fucks it up on the third act, it deserves the hate. Games having a bad payoff 200% warrants bad reviews.

Oh sorry, this isn’t a Danganronpa thread.

lustyargonian,

Plays game for 2 hours, rates poorly

“How can they review it without completing it”

Plays game for 60 hours, rates poorly

“Why are they rating it poorly if they spent so many hours on it?”

grill,

2 hours is more than enough for general impression IMO. Just imagine watching a 2 hour movie that is boring AF. I can’t judge them for quiting.

Kaldo,
@Kaldo@kbin.social avatar

2 hours doesn't let you experience even 10% of what a game like this usually offer, less alone giving you time to tinker with the systems and see if they actually work, and furthermore if they are actually fun once you're good at them.

grill,

Of course I agree. But it’s still not that great game design, if you are bored for hours. It’s like people telling me about tv show that gets good after first season. What should I do until then… :)

Kaldo,
@Kaldo@kbin.social avatar

How else do you explain to someone what dwarf fortress is, for example? You need dozens of hours just to get the grasp of mechanics and UI, less alone to figure out whether you even like the game. Same goes for many bigger games, for example mount and blade (bannerlord) starts off strong with a promise of you establishing and leading a kingdom but once you actually reach that part through tedious grind, you realize it was all for nothing and the game's a badly designed, shallow, unfinished sandbox with absolutely no vision or execution in that regard. Good luck getting to that conclusion without already investing at least 50 mediocre hours in it though.

0xc0ba17,

You need dozens of hours just to get the grasp of mechanics and UI, less alone to figure out whether you even like the game

The problem with this thinking is that you split the game in 2 parts: first a tedious learning process of dozens of hours, and then an enjoyable experience once you know how to play, and imply that you need to get over the first part before being able (or allowed) to rate the game. But the learning part is the game, even more so if you need to invest dozens of hours.

Many players will simply enjoy the grind of Mount and Blade, because they don’t care about the endgame. Many players (maybe the same) will uninstall Dwarf Fortress after half an hour, because they will estimate that the learning curve isn’t worth their time, even if it was the greatest game ever.

grill,

I understand your point. But, if I take your example of mount and blade. If it’s starts off strong with 50 hours of fun, that’s a win in my book. But yes, in this regard steam ratings fail, because of binary recommend or not recommend voting. On the other hand, you can see how many hours did the user that posted a review played, so you can kinda make your own decision.

Also, I would like to add that games like dwarf fortress, rimworld, factorio and similar, all start of fun, if you’re into this genre….at least for me, they did. Thinking back, I think I never experienced playing a game for X hours having a horrible time, and somewhere in the middle changing my mind. At least from the gameplay standpoint. Maybe sometimes story had some unexpected bump in quality (thank god), but not really core gameplay.

Overall, I agree with you, 2 hours is too little for a complete review of a video game. But these are user reviews that can be helpful as well. For an example, for someone who hasn’t that much time to invest in a game to get to the good part. Professional reviewers (or people who have themselves as professional) should play the game for a suitable amount of time, before making an informed review.

hypelightfly,

You can and should enjoy those dozens of hours of learning. If you don't you aren't going to enjoy DF.

hypelightfly,

If I game can't keep you engaged while doing that for the first 2 hours it's not a good game, at least for that person. You don't need to know everything the game has to offer if it's bored you for 2 hours.

lustyargonian, (edited )

I think there are too many exceptions to this that the best way to truly know is to play it for yourself. I hated Death Stranding, Control, Days Gone, Final Fantasy 7 Remake, Fallout 3 and many other games in their initial few hours, but as they opened up they quickly became my one of my favourites. I’ve started my first playthrough of Witcher 3 and in the first 3 hours I’m not yet impressed, but I’ll give it a good chance before dropping it. Not sure if Starfield is any good but given its systems, it’ll probably need some buildup time I guess.

cdipierr,

It’s such a bizarre, but real issue. I’ve always been boggled by the idea that you can’t offer your opinion on some games without first giving them a full work week. “I know you just sat there for the length of 5 movies and didn’t like it, but it doesn’t really get good until you sit through another 10.”

If you give it 2 hours, a game should have made it worth your time.

YuzuDrink, do gaming w Meet Diablo 4 and Path of Exile's biggest rival, an ARPG designed and built by Redditors

Wasn’t PoE exactly this, but for Diablo 3? Apparently the Diablo series just spawns community-built competitors each generation now?

chaogomu,

Ever hear of a game called Torchlight? It's damn good.

And yes, it too was inspired directly by Diablo (and its sequels).

Anon819450514,

Grim dawn, anyone? Now grim Dawn 2!

Gordon_Freeman, (edited )
@Gordon_Freeman@kbin.social avatar

And yes, it too was inspired directly by Diablo (and its sequels).

It would not say it was "inspired" by Diablo it was more than that. I mean, Torchlight was made by the same team that made Diablo I and II after all.

mihnt,
@mihnt@kbin.social avatar

RIP Runic Games.

Chozo, do gaming w Meet Diablo 4 and Path of Exile's biggest rival, an ARPG designed and built by Redditors

As much as I want to be critical of it based on the cringelord description, the actual gameplay footage doesn't look awful at all. Of course, it's impossible to really judge an ARPG without seeing how the loot system feels as you play it. But at least visually, it looks pretty well fleshed out. Honestly, I hope they find success with this project.

loobkoob,

I've played Last Epoch for ~250 hours (and counting) over the last year since I bought it, so I'll give a mini-review here. The TL;DR is that it feels like a brilliant middle ground between Path Of Exile and Diablo - it has depth and complexity but doesn't have the brutal learning curve that Path Of Exile does. It doesn't have the content variety that Path Of Exile has, but it's also an early access game right now so that's expected. It's a great foundation, their patches have been substantial, their communications tend to feel good, and I feel like they're a good development studio. A lot of the developer insights make it feel like they take very good approaches to problem-solving, too.


The combat feels absolutely fantastic. The animations are smooth and feel modern. It can feel a little "floaty" for some people, but personally I have no issues with the way it feels. It's paced in such a way that fighting regular enemies still feels engaging (unlike Path Of Exile's zoom- and dopamine-fest) but isn't a slog, and more powerful enemies can put up really good satisfying fights. There's a good variety of skills and the way you modify them with the skill tree system can change them significantly. The build depth isn't quite as crazy as Path Of Exile's, but considering most POE players just follow build guides rather than taking their own builds, I'd say that won't matter for most people. And for people who do like creating their own builds from scratch - which I do - there's still plenty of depth to Last Epoch's system.

It's very realistic (and encouraged) for new players to experiment and create their own builds. Respeccing is pretty simple, and the skill systems are simple enough that new players can work it out for themselves, but there are also some interesting combinations and min-maxy things for more advanced players can figure out and build around. Each skill has its own skill tree, and while the trees aren't super complex, there's a good variety of ways to modify each skill. Some of the skills also have interactions with other skills - for instance, Teleport has a modifier that means your next skill has no mana cost; Meteor has one where your Fireball has reduced mana cost for a few seconds after casting it. You can chain that into a skill rotation: Teleport > Meteor (which normally has a high mana cost) > Fireball spam and suddenly you're going to have a much better time with mana sustain, but perhaps need to work out a way to deal with the fact that your movement skill is being used offensively and won't be available for dodging. So the game sort of gently hints at some skill combos like that, but they never feel forced and you still feel smart when you put it all together yourself.


The loot system is good. It has the single best crafting system I've seen in any ARPG, and crafting is absolutely worth your time and a necessity if you're pushing your build as far as it goes. But you need good starting items to work with - you can't just take a terrible item and craft it into something amazing. Crafting lets you upgrade the tiers of modifiers, add new mods if there's space, and sometimes modify items in slightly more spicy ways if you're feeling brave. But items have a "crafting potential" which depletes as you craft on them, so looting items is important.

The legendary item system is also very good. Unique items have their usual fixed stats, but they can have something called "legendary potential", which rolls between 0 and 4. Legendary potential does nothing by itself, but it allows you to combine a purple-tier item with your unique item; the amount of legendary potential you have dictates the number of mods from your purple item that will be randomly added to your unique item. Non-unique items can have 4 modifiers, so being able to create legendary items with the unique stats and powerful regular item stats is a really good end-game chase.

Most unique items are target farmable in the end-game. That's not to say you can get them immediately, but you can target "unique rings" as a reward, for instance, or target a specific boss that can have a chance to drop the item you're looking for. So overall, I think it's a good item system!


I think they've taken a very good approach to problem-solving - their upcoming trade system, for instance, looks (on paper) like it'll fix the biggest issues with Path Of Exile's trade system and Diablo 3's auction house, while also having the benefits of both and while giving players an avenue to progress without engaging with trade at all. (Basically, players join either the trading guild or the "solo" guild. Traders can trade, solo players get a boost to their loot and can target farm things more easily. People can trade with their party/friends separately from this trading system so the whole guild system doesn't matter for co-op play.) It's smart, and that kind of thinking can be seen across multiple systems in the game.

Chozo,

Well damn, that all sounds very promising! I'm gonna have to look into this game a bit further, as this sounds like it has a lot of my favorite elements of the ARPGs from AAA studios that I love, but without the problems I often have with those games. Thanks for sharing this!

If you haven't already, I'd definitely recommend putting this up as a proper review somewhere, too. That's way too in-depth to just get lost in a random Lemmy thread over time!

loobkoob,

You're welcome, of course! I'll definitely see about refining it and finding somewhere to post it, that's a good suggestion! It's given me some ideas to discuss in a more broad essay about complexity, depth and accessibility, too.

One criticism I'll add that I didn't mention in my above comment (because I ran out of characters and had to trim some stuff!) is the atmosphere of the game. It's not bad, and some of the level design is really nice, but the game doesn't have a strong tone, aesthetic or level of writing in the way Grim Dawn does, for example (although Grim Dawn is probably the peak as far as atmosphere and world-building in ARPGs goes, I think, so maybe that's not a fair comparison). Last Epoch has some interesting ideas relating to time travel, and it's pretty cool seeing some of the same areas in different eras (plus it's a clever way for them to reuse assets, I imagine), but I'd say it's weaker than other major ARPGs in the story/world-building/atmosphere department. Of course, most people tend to play ARPGs for the gameplay first and foremost, and LE does a great job with that, so it's a more minor criticism from me than it would be in other genres of game.

But yes, definitely look into it!

Kaldo,
@Kaldo@kbin.social avatar

I am always tempted to try new ARPGs because games like D1, D2, Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege, Sacred etc. were my childhood but honestly I can't stand the grind and repetition anymore - I kinda want a good challenging combat system that makes me feel good, play the game through once or twice and be done with it, with as little pointless filler as possible.

Would you say Last Epoch can be played like this or is it more like PoE and D3/4 in the way that it's mostly about item grind and stat crunching? I do not expect it to be a game for me at all, and that's very okay, but with all the praise about combat and build variety I can't help but hope a little bit.

cacheson, do gaming w Meet Diablo 4 and Path of Exile's biggest rival, an ARPG designed and built by Redditors
@cacheson@kbin.social avatar

Alright lemmings and kbinotaurs, you know what we need to do.

WHYAREWEALLCAPS,

I think so, but burlap chafes me so.

Ketram, do gaming w Meet Diablo 4 and Path of Exile's biggest rival, an ARPG designed and built by Redditors

I have played last epoch for hundreds of hours as well, and I will say I really enjoy it. It’s my go-to ARPG because the skill system feels so damn good. It isn’t the mess of nodes that PoE is, and it isn’t the very braindead level of skills that Diablo 3 had (haven’t played 4 because blizzard). Pretty much every skill has its own skill tree, and you can often make skills cast other skills or find awesome synergies and the game excels at giving you the power to make your own build and have it actually work.

Other notes, the crafting system is absolutely fantastic. You will end up crafting all the time, not just at endgame and it feels so good, and is very easy to understand without being braindead.

Most of the endgame content is great, but it just needs more and extra of it. They have a few dungeons that do different specific things, so you don’t necessarily go there to farm, you go there because you want some feature or thing that place has. It’s a really fun system.

I will say at 0.9.2 there are still some issues with multiplayer sync, so if you want to wait til 1.0 to play it with bros then understandable. What a fun game IMO though.

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