bin.pol.social

boonhet, do games w Is it time to start a campaign against kernel-level anticheat?

It should be said that I’m not against games detecting cheaters and banning them from online play. It’s very specifically kernel-level anticheats that I can’t stand on principle.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

I’m against them being able to ban you from playing online in its entirety, which is something they can do because most online games don’t let you run the servers yourself anymore. Sure, if someone cheats on official servers, ban them from the official servers. They should still be able to play, cheating or not, on the server they run themselves, but that’s not an option we even have most of the time.

tiz,

This one is such an overlooked part of this whole dilemma. The problem is NOT THAT the official servers not allowing clients without kernel level anti cheat. It’s just we don’t have an option to host our own servers anymore and we’re confined to following the rules.

NuXCOM_90Percent,

It is “overlooked” because it is a non-answer.

Nobody wants to play with all the cheaters and the people who got banned because they couldn’t stop talking about how much they love CSAM in the lobbies.

I mean, look at twitter. After the recent mass exodus to bluesky there is anger because they are realizing their quarantine zone is REAL shitty.

I do wish more games would provide player run servers as an option. but I am under no illusion that that is going to be good for anything other than “Hey, remember when we all played Chivalry 2 for a few years? What say we play that on Friday night and then ignore it for another decade?”

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

That is a perfectly valid use case for a video game that I paid for though. I do exactly that with games like 007: Agent Under Fire (in split-screen), and I played games like Rainbow Six 3 long after the official servers weren’t there anymore. Agent Under Fire in particular is a lot of fun with all of the modifiers on, like moon gravity, and I wouldn’t mind playing some multiplayer games with friends with cheats like that one on; things that you wouldn’t want on in a ranked queue, but things that I should 100% be able to do with the product that I paid for.

grue,

That’s a strawman argument. First of all, plenty of people would be happy to self-host a game for their friends, if they were still allowed the option. Second, even people who want to run a public server would still be free to ban people (for whatever reason they wanted). We’re not talking about being forced to tolerate antisocial fuckwads.

NuXCOM_90Percent,

As something nice to have? I fully agree (and said as much)

As an alternative to anti-cheat solutions/“solutions” as was being presented?

No, it is not an answer. Because it would indeed be forcing people to tolerate “antisocial fuckwads” or forcing people ti find private servers to play with each other like in the good old days.

grue,

or forcing people ti find private servers to play with each other like in the good old days.

No shit, Sherlock. That’s exactly what I was advocating for.

I wouldn’t call it “forcing,” though – that’s another strawman. It’s “allowing” the option.

NuXCOM_90Percent,

Cool

Also, it isn’t a straw man if you are arguing a completely different topic than the one the thread is about. But cool. You learned a word.

BombOmOm,
@BombOmOm@lemmy.world avatar

First of all, plenty of people would be happy to self-host a game for their friends, if they were still allowed the option.

Exactly! Me and my friends often play on modded Factorio servers that one of us hosts. This is only possible because the developer doesn’t lock things down to only the first-party (official) servers.

We don’t play with cheaters either (you aren’t getting invited to our server if you are). We play with our friends because it is fun, in a way no official server could hope to work.

SteveNashFan,

In my experience with TF2, many popular community servers have common-sense rules like no slurs, cheats, etc. The great thing about a player-run server is that, if you want, it can be stricter than official guidelines, as Valve for example is pretty hands-off beyond the obvious in-game cheats. It allows pockets of the community to shape the experience they want to have more adeptly than official servers ever could.

NuXCOM_90Percent,

The problem is “pockets of the community”.

Back in the day, I LOVED Unreal Tournament (… I still do actually). And a lot of that is because I found servers with people who became friends I still chat with (hell, one of them is even in the same Warframe clan as I am).

But that is INCREDIBLY unapproachable and I know plenty of people who never “got int” UT or Quake or TF2 because they never found those communities and instead got stuck with random pubs full of assholes.

That said: That is not about anti-cheat. That is about matchmaking versus player run servers. Which is a very different discussion with nuances in all directions.

boonhet,

Yes, that’s part of the StopKillingGames agenda as well. Allow us to control our own servers! For fuck’s sake, it’s CHEAPER for them, because WE’RE paying for hosting. A dedicated server costs money! And it keeps people buying into the ecosystem after the initial sales high because you form communities and then tell people IRL how awesome the game is. Assuming you have time for real life friends of course.

I’m not against the existence of a matchmaking system, or even against it being the default. Just give us a tiny menu item “Dedicated Servers” somewhere and keep that one around forever, even when the publisher is long bankrupt because the CEO blew all their profit on sculptures of oddly shaped penises or something.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

They see it as a threat to their business model. Without any other option, you have to be on the latest version, seeing the latest skins, and you’re unable to bypass their store and mod them in yourself. If I can help it, not giving me the option to run the server myself will be a threat to their business model.

xavier666,

A dedicated server costs money!

Game company: “Why don’t you give that money to us and we will give you a server?”

vodka,

Make a cheater pool and put anyone you detect using cheats in a separate matchmaking system that only matches cheaters with cheaters.

And never ban anyone, ofc.

Passerby6497,

“Butbutbutbut server side anticheat is haaaaaaard and requires us to actually think about what values are actually valid and understand our own internal game states. Kernel level anticheat lets us be lazy costs us less and requires less development time!”

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

Unless they deviate substantially from how they build games in genres like shooters, server side anti-cheat isn’t going to catch everything that kernel level anti cheat does. However, kernel level anti cheat doesn’t catch hardware cheating anyway, so if cheating is always going to be imperfect, we ought to stop short of the kernel.

Passerby6497,

That’s the thing, you’re never going to catch everything. But anything important can be sanity checked by the server when the client checks in, all without opening a vulnerability in your customers’ systems.

So much kernel level anticheat is about offloading the processing power to the customer, and unreasonable desires for control over the systems involved and overall game environment (and probably a decent amount of data mining).

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

A lot of cheats send completely legitimate information back to the server, and that’s what they’re seeking to stop with the client side implementation; I don’t think it has anything to do with costs. I haven’t heard of any data mining happening, and surely someone would have caught it with wire shark by now, but there are enough things that we know for sure about kernel level anti cheats to make it offensive.

nekusoul,
@nekusoul@lemmy.nekusoul.de avatar

I think the way to go about detecting cheats server-side would be primarily driven by statistics. For example, to counter wallhacks one might track how often a player is already targeting an enemy before they become visible. Or to counter aimbots one could check for humanly impossible amounts of changes in the direction of mouse movement, somewhat similar to how the community found out a bunch of cheaters using slowmo in Trackmania.

Add in a reputation system that actually requires a good amount of playtime to be put into the highest tier of trust for matchmaking and I think one could have a pretty solid system that wouldn’t have to rely on client-side anticheat at all.

NuXCOM_90Percent,

That’s the thing, you’re never going to catch everything

The problem is that the things that aren’t caught? People don’t say “Ugh. Easy Anti-Cheat suck”. they say “Ugh, fucking Battlefield is un fucking playable. BOYCOTT IT!!!”

There are alternative methods that may be even more effective (I personally think this is a genuinely great use case for “AI” to detect things like tracking players through walls and head snapping). They also have drawbacks (training and inference would get real expensive real fast since it needs to be fairly game specific).

Whereas kernel level bullshit? It clearly works well enough that the people who have the data (devs and publishers) are willing to pay for it.

And if it reduces the risk of a particularly bad exploit hurting the reputation of the game and tanking it harder than Concord?

Which is why “fighting back” is so difficult. We, as players, are asking for the devs/publishers to trust us. But we have also demonstrated, at every fucking step, that we won’t extend even an iota of trust back and will instead watch thousands of hours of video essays on why this game sucks because of a bad beta.

NuXCOM_90Percent,

Was it Delta Force that made everyone lose their shit because it “accidentally” warned people would be banned for usb thumb drives?

Because… that is coming. No, not the thumbdrive. But scanning your various devices to detect hardware based cheats. Which… is likely also going to be pushed by logitech and razer to get ahead of the crowd that are sick and tired of needing their bullshit software to properly use mice and are looking toward alternatives.

LaLuzDelSol,

Look if companies could implement successful anticheat without kernel access they sure as hell would, regardless of cost or effort. There is a TON of money to be made in competitive fps games alone, and they’re pretty much all overrun by hackers

rumba,

requires less development time

Here, step into this 200GB repo with about 50 third party plugins and someone else’s game engine and find all the states that aren’t exactly like they are on the design docs, and do it at scale, across a cluster of servers that all have to interact.

20 years ago, i’d be right there with you.

It’s actually hard for a big game to do those things. The people making the cheats are as good as the developers and only need to find one nick it the armor every time.

FWIW, I’m against kernel-level anticheat, and I didn’t downvote you :)

wreckedcarzz,
@wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world avatar

The one downvote from a cheater 👌

derpgon, do games w PEGI gives Balatro an 18+ rating for gambling imagery

Fuck PEGI, their ratings always sucked and weren’t useful at all. Full blown swearing? 13+. One cigar through 500 hours of gameplay? Adults only. Never cared, never will.

rimjob_rainer,

Violence and gore? 13+. Some boobs? Adults only.

Killing good, love bad.

wizardbeard,

And people pretend that only American ratings systems pull this kind of bullshit.

SaharaMaleikuhm,

If anybody knows about love it’s rimjob_rainer.

ms_lane, do games w How to decide what kind of controller one should purchase?
  • Microsoft has their own controller protocol, xinput, it only works with xbox and PC
  • Sony and Nintendo both use BT HID, but add their own non-standard extras to deal with trackpads and gyros, on PC there are drivers to deal with this (inc. w/Linux kernel, extra on Windows)
  • For Wireless, Sony and Nintendo both use standard Bluetooth, you can pair a Switch or PS4/5 controller straight to a PC (though you will need extra software on Windows)
  • Microsoft uses either their somewhat proprietary 802.11AC implementation (only works with their dongles - you will need extra software on Linux, fully supported in Windows ootb) or standard Bluetooth, their BT has the highest latency of any of the 3 major controllers, but their 5ghz 802.11AC has the lowest. BT mode requires no extra drivers and will work fine ootb on Linux or Windows. You can’t use a headset plugged into the controller or connected by BT (to the controller) if you’re connecting the controller via BT.
  • MS has additional trigger rumbling/tension on the Xbox One/Series controllers, in Windows it will only work with MS Store apps - it won’t work on any Steam game :( on Linux it will work, but nothing really supports it either.
  • Sony has a much better implementation in the PS5 controller, nothing outside Sony published games use it though - but it’s compatible on Windows with additional drivers (DS4Win) (not sure about Linux here)
  • For Nintendo Switch on Windows you will need BetterJoy (previously, BetterJoyForCEMU) to support switch controllers properly, this also makes a DS4Win style gyro server, so anything that support ds4win will support Switch gyro too.
Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah this is a solved problem with a lot of third-party systems though like 8bitdo has, since they just allow you to swap modes. Granted, sometimes it’s a bit wonky since for example the Switch won’t support analogue triggers but eh, it works for everything and everywhere, so I’m happy to have a single pad that has everything anybody can utilize.

xavier666,

If I could award this comment, I would have. Thank you, you answered a lot of my questions!

1Fuji2Taka3Nasubi,

Also, the button layout on switch controllers is different (A & B is swapped compared to XBox). This mostly matters on emulators, although you can remap the buttons, it can get confusing that they don’t match the games’ instructions on screen.

SatyrSack,

X/Y are also swapped.

Doodleschmit,
@Doodleschmit@lemmy.world avatar

This comment is how I always hope my info dumps go when someone asks me a technical question about something I have good experience in using. 10/10 comment, love it.

SatyrSack, (edited )

Sony has a much better [trigger rumbling/tension] implementation in the PS5 controller, nothing outside Sony published games use it though - but it’s compatible on Windows with additional drivers (DS4Win) (not sure about Linux here)

It also does not work wirelessly. The controller itself and its basic rumble obviously do, but you will not experience the fancy haptic features unless the controller is connected via USB.

garretble,
@garretble@lemmy.world avatar

How it’s been four years and Sony hasn’t released a dongle to solve this problem is beyond me. Especially now that they are releasing more and more games on pc.

I have my pc in my living room, and while I’d like to just go wireless, I’ve currently decided to compromise with a super long cable just so I can get all the dualsense features.

Hylactor,

I use a ps5 controller on pc and get rumble? Even the weirdo trackpad in the middle works like a cursor.

coriza,

I also have a PS5 controller, as far as I understand, haptic feedback is not humble, it is a resistance in the triggers (L2 and R2) só a game can make pull the trigger be harder of softer depending on the situation.

I don’t know how many or which games uses it seem how many games still does not correctly display PS controller icons and etc and fallback to the MS iconography.

As far as I know haptic and maybe the mic/phone are the only things that does not work over BT. But I also think I read that some things that does work with BT does not work over USB

Hylactor,

Ah, interesting. That sounds pretty negligible, feature wise. Might be fun on a racing game or something I suppose.

Rai,

It’s fucking AMAZING.

I got a Dualsense controller because it looked comfortable. Then Returnal came out and I experienced the haptics and triggers… Absolutely insane. Even the lil controller speaker makes satisfying sounds on a perfect reload, or when you pick up certain things.

You’re right about driving games, though—playing Pacific Drive with it is completely awesome. The triggers vibrate on rough terrain along with the haptics, and the brake trigger feels like you’re actually pressing a car brake down.

I wouldn’t recommend either of those games WITHOUT a PS5 controller after trying it. They would feel so… flat. I’m looking forward to playing more games that support the triggers and haptics.

Rai,

Haptic is different than the adaptive triggers, it’s like a way more 3D rumble. If you have a Dualsense controller, I HEAVILY recommend Returnal if you’d like to really feel the haptics and triggers. It’s AWESOME.

Pacific Drive is another game that takes full advantage of the haptics and triggers. They really being the game to life.

It does need to be plugged in, though.

coriza,

Wow I didn’t know. Do you know if it work Linux the way you described? Even if using USB

ViatorOmnium, do games w The signatures are still coming and it's already making an impact

So does not allowing food companies to sprinkle lead and uranium in food. What's the point?

A_Union_of_Kobolds,

Yeah sometimes their choices are bad, that is like 1/3 of the whole point of government. To stop businesses from just doing whatever nonsense they want.

Lv_InSaNe_vL,

Imo, that should be the primary role of the government

Ziglin,

I think providing human rights to it’s citizens is definitely more important, not sure if it is necessarily the primary one though.

reksas, do games w I'm a console gamer so, Why the hate on the Epic Games Store?

Here are some reasons:

  • exclusivity deals, forcing them to drop from steam even after they first announced release on there. They also target crowdfunded games like phoenixpoint.
  • The launcher is spyware

resetera.com/…/developing-epic-games-launcher-app…

forums.unrealengine.com/t/…/123592

  • and epic is owned by tencent 40%
  • They not really trying to improve their launcher but instead focus on hurting steam and by extension the users.

Its like some shady guy trying to lure kids to a van by offering free candy.

The launcher is security risk for your systemreddit.com/…/epic_games_launcher_had_a_serious_se…

Even if they have fixed that specific issue, why would you believe they have fixed anything else?

first comment on the reddit thread>thlm 5mo ago Epic Games Launcher Incorrect Default Permissions Local Privilege Escalation Vulnerability CVSS SCORE 7.8 This vulnerability allows local attackers to escalate privileges on affected installations of Epic Games Launcher. An attacker must first obtain the ability to execute low-privileged code on the target system in order to exploit this vulnerability. The specific flaw exists within the product installer. The product applies incorrect default permissions to a sensitive folder. An attacker can leverage this vulnerability to escalate privileges and execute arbitrary code in the context of SYSTEM. DISCLOSURE TIMELINE 2024-07-16 - Vulnerability reported to vendor 2024-12-04 - Coordinated public release of advisory 2024-12-06 - Advisory Updated That timeline is disgusting

So in essence, its not bad because it trys to compete with steam. Its bad because they really dont try to compete and just do anti-user things. And people dont care because “yay free games I’m never going to look at again”.

If you want to see what actual competition looks like at the moment, take a look at GOG.

MrScottyTay,

I don’t hate times exclusives that much because that’s done extra cashflow for the dev to be able to either finish their game or polish it further. I still don’t think we’d have gotten Alan Wake 2 at least the version we got without that epic deal. I also don’t know if square would’ve bothered even entertaining the idea of porting all of the kingdoms hearts games either.

towelie, (edited ) do games w 6* months away now. If you're on 10, do you plan to upgrade? Make the jump to Linux?

Already did and it’s glorious! Steam works beautifully and the only final thing that I’m missing is Adobe products.

I recommend, if you want to try Linux, that you try out the ‘Debian’ distribution, and use the ‘KDE Plasma’ desktop environment. It makes for a very Windows-like experience and really assisted me with the transition between OSs.

kuneho,
@kuneho@lemmy.world avatar

for newcomers, maybe this is the best combo. Debian stable with KDE Plasma.

jimerson,
@jimerson@lemmy.world avatar

Unless you’re using NVIDIA. Didn’t work out of the box for me and required a couple hours of fiddling. Mint worked seamlessly.

Monstrosity, (edited )
@Monstrosity@lemm.ee avatar

PopOS (scroll down to the “Pop_OS with Nvidia” link).

It is tailored for Nvidia cards, is Debian(Ubuntu) based, & super friendly for new users.

EDIT: Here’s a link to the 24.04 release that provides only the Cosmic desktop environment (no X11, no gnome or kde). This is what I use, but it’s in alpha so user beware.

DogWater,

Saving this.

skulblaka,
@skulblaka@sh.itjust.works avatar

Wrangling my Nvidia drivers into Mint also took a couple hours for me but I haven’t had problems afterward

Matriks404,

That’s weird. It worked for me just fine. I have GTX 1060 3GB.

metaldream,

Debian is not a good choice for beginners. It’s extremely bare bones compared to Ubuntu or Mint.

Drivers on Debian stable are also heavily outdated

Matriks404,

Drivers being outdated is not a big deal, unless you use recent hardware, then it might make sense to make a jump to current testing release (trixie), or just stay on testing indefinitely.

Also it being “barebones” is a good thing in my eyes, since I can configure it how I want.

metaldream,

It’s definitely a good thing if you’re interested and knowledgeable enough to build what you want. I was just arguing it’s not the best choice for a casual user because a lot things they’ll want won’t work out of the box.

Even updating to the next stable Debian version requires editing system files and running the command line.

Drivers can matter quite a bit if for example you’re on an Nvidia card and the Debian drivers are 2 years old. It happened to me and caused dlss to not work in some games. And with Nvidia you can’t just move to testing, you need to backport the driversc and that’s quite involved.

I run a Debian server and it’s amazing for that.

Matriks404,

I definitely agree with most of the points but I don’t get what do you mean that you can’t move to testing, because that’s what I literally did recently by upgrading from bookworm to trixie with no issues whatsoever and I have Nvidia card, although older one (GTX 1060 3GB).

metaldream,

When I tried it, testing was on the same version of Nvidia drivers as stable so it didn’t solve my problem. It was possible to manually backport them, but it wasn’t straightforward to do.

Cris16228,

and the only final thing that I’m missing is Adobe products.

I miss Affinity Designer! Bought a license and I like it but no linux port 🙄

I can’t get used Inkscape, it’s so different and confusing for me

towelie,

Have you ever seen how to draw a circle in GIMP?

Monstrosity,
@Monstrosity@lemm.ee avatar

Krita > Gimp

tauren,

Krita and GIMP are tools for different use cases.

Monstrosity,
@Monstrosity@lemm.ee avatar

On a more professional/advanced level I agree.

But for average users, they accomplish 90% identical tasks, but Krita, while less mature, is more intuitively designed (superiorly designed I would argue), and uses better algorithms for things like select & fill.

Also Krita is less ugly. Sorry, I’m notoriously shallow.

Cris16228,

I hate you :c that was… Disturbing

Yoga,

I think torrenting a copy of Photoshop would be faster than drawing a circle in GIMP

A_Union_of_Kobolds,

I went with Mint but I’m thinking about KDE (or maybe KDE flavored Arch? Idk I’m new) on my second computer. Pretty painless?

towelie,

So Mint is the ‘distro’, which is actually based on Ubuntu, which is based on Debian. In simple terms, a distro is a bundle of programs and configurations assembled for you. Basically, Debian is a stripped down version of Mint.

A ‘desktop environment’ is a separate program(?) that changes what your desktop looks like, and they can be downloaded on any distro. So you can try out KDE Plasma on your Mint installation! The one that you’re likely using right now is called ‘Cinnamon’, which I personally didn’t like and turned me off of Linux my first time trying to switch over years ago.

Something cool about KDE Plasma is that you can download themes and make your desktop environments look really cool. For instance, sometimes I like to rock this Windows 7 theme: www.pling.com/p/2142957/

Damage,

Eh Arch can be quite stable if you’re careful, but it could also be a frustrating experience, there’s lots of manual configuration

Aphelion, (edited )

deleted_by_author

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  • A_Union_of_Kobolds,

    Yeah Manjaro + KDE is kinda what I was thinking, thanks!

    Nednarb44,

    I would recommend endeavor os with plasma instead honestly. Its a similar setup, but you won’t have to deal with manjaro holding back updates.

    A_Union_of_Kobolds,

    Oh okay! Thanks, that’s helpful. So EndeavorOS has pretty frequent updates then? I’m ngl since switching I look forward to them, which is funny! It’s like “oh cool my computer got better and also new toys instead of worse and more bloated!”

    Ahh I should’ve done this years ago but better late than never

    Nednarb44,

    Yeah, it should get updates exactly the same as arch. And I’m the same way, I check for update every time I log in lol. It does feel nice that you’re always up to date

    communist,
    @communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz avatar

    Manjaro is legitimately a terrible choice, github.com/arindas/manjarno

    I used to give manjaro to a lot of people because i was an arch user and supported a bunch of linux users, it was a massive mistake, arch is just a strictly better version of manjaro, the things manjaro claims to do it doesn’t do well because it’s just kind of hacked onto arch. Let me give you an example of something stupid that manjaro does:

    normally, in linux, all packages are upgraded centrally, however, manjaro has decided to make an exception for the kernel, and now the kernel is versioned, and each version upgrades separately… this can result in you being stuck with an ancient kernel. I had to go into peoples computers, boot into a console, manually swap out the kernel, and put on the latest one, because the updater wouldn’t update due to the newest drivers being incompatible with the old kernel.

    This happened enough times, that and the concerns raised in manjarno make me think it really isn’t for anyone. The team is laughably incompetent (they can’t even get their certs sorted out? really?) and you don’t want an incompetent team running your desktop.

    If you’re enough of an expert to fix these things… just use arch, it’s strictly better. If you don’t know what you’re doing, an arch based distro is a terrible choice and you should go with bazzite.

    I’m willing to troubleshoot infinitely over matrix for free and have 15 years of experience, feel free to message me!

    A_Union_of_Kobolds,

    Very helpful, thank you!

    communist,
    @communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz avatar

    Manjaro is legitimately a terrible choice and should not be recommended, github.com/arindas/manjarno

    If it works for you, that’s great, but you’re lucky so far and it’s a ticking timebomb.

    I used to give manjaro to a lot of people because i was an arch user and supported a bunch of linux users, it was a massive mistake, arch is just a strictly better version of manjaro, the things manjaro claims to do it doesn’t do well because it’s just kind of hacked onto arch. Let me give you an example of something stupid that manjaro does:

    normally, in linux, all packages are upgraded centrally, however, manjaro has decided to make an exception for the kernel, and now the kernel is versioned, and each version upgrades separately… this can result in you being stuck with an ancient kernel. I had to go into peoples computers, boot into a console, manually swap out the kernel, and put on the latest one, because the updater wouldn’t update due to the newest drivers being incompatible with the old kernel.

    This happened enough times, that and the concerns raised in manjarno make me think it really isn’t for anyone. The team is laughably incompetent (they can’t even get their certs sorted out? really?) and you don’t want an incompetent team running your desktop.

    If you’re enough of an expert to fix these things… just use arch, it’s strictly better. If you don’t know what you’re doing, an arch based distro is a terrible choice and you should go with bazzite.

    communist,
    @communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz avatar

    I honestly think mint is an outdated suggestion for beginners, I think immutability is extremely important for someone who is just starting out, as well as starting on KDE since it’s by far the most developed DE that isn’t gnome and their… design decisions are unfortunate for people coming from windows.

    I don’t think we should be recommending mint to beginners anymore, if mint makes an immutable, up to date KDE distro, that’ll change, but until then, I think bazzite is objectively a better starting place for beginners.

    The mere fact that it generates a new system for you on update and lets you switch between and rollback automatically is enough for me to say it’s better, but it also has more up to date software, and tons of guides (fedora is one of the most popular distros, and bazzite is essentially identical except with some QoL upgrades).

    How common is the story of “I was new to linux and completely broke it”? that’s not a good user experience for someone who’s just starting, it’s intimidating, scary, and I just don’t think it’s the best in the modern era. There’s something to be said about learning from these mistakes, but bazzite essentially makes these mistakes impossible.

    Furthermore because of the way bazzite works, package management is completely graphical and requires essentially no intervention on the users part, flathub and immutability pair excellently for this reason.

    Cinnamon (the default mint environment) doesn’t and won’t support HDR, the security/performance improvements from wayland, mixed refresh rate displays, mixed DPI displays, fractional scaling, and many other things for a very very long time if at all. I don’t understand the usecase for cinnamon tbh, xfce is great if you need performance but don’t want to make major sacrifices, lmde is great if you need A LOT of performance, cinnamon isn’t particularly performant and just a strictly worse version of kde in my eyes from the perspective of a beginner, anyway.

    I have 15 years of linux experience and am willing to infinitely troubleshoot if you add me on matrix.

    merc,
    @merc@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I completely disagree. Debian is not beginner-friendly. Go with Bazzite if your focus is gaming.

    It is a gaming-focused distribution. It’s also an “atomic” distribution, which basically means it’s really hard to break it. It’s more like Android or IOS where the OS and base system are managed by someone else. They’re read-only so you can’t accidentally break them.

    For example, instead of trying to manage your own video card drivers, they come packaged with the base system image, and they’re tested to make sure they work with all the other base components.

    I’ve been using Linux since the 1990s, so I’ve run my share of distributions: Slackware, RedHat, Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu, etc. Even for someone experienced, atomic distributions are great. But, for a newcomer they’re so much better.

    towelie, (edited )

    I find this interesting as I’m a beginner with only about 3 months of Linux use under my belt, whereas Ive used Windows since I was like 5 years old, and I found Debian to be a really good introduction to Linux. I was originally recommended Mint, like many are, and I found the experience to be a negative one as opposed to my later experience with Debian. (Note I have no experience with Bazzite or any other distros).

    The additional ‘bloat’ in Mint obfuscated from me various aspects of Linux. It insulated me from learning how Linux is different from Windows, and that actually hindered me from understanding the OS. By starting with Debian I got a feel for using the CLI, setting up my drivers, package installer, and desktop environment. And, while those aspects can be complicated for new users, i think its somewhat necessary that they get a feel for them if Linux is going to be recommended as their OS.

    merc,
    @merc@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Debian is fine as an introduction to Linux, if that’s what you want. But, as a beginner, you’re going to screw up, and Debian doesn’t do anything to protect you from that.

    Atomic distributions let you use Linux but make it harder to shoot yourself in the foot. It’s much harder to break the system in a way you can’t just reboot to fix it.

    It all depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to learn Linux by using it, then by all means, go for a traditional distribution. Debian is nice, but I’d go for Ubuntu. But, if your goal is to have a stable system that you can’t screw up as a beginner I’d go with an atomic distribution. If your goal is to play games, Bazzite is hard to beat.

    You can still learn Linux if you use an atomic distribution. Configuring and using the desktop environment is basically the same. But, you don’t need to worry about your drivers, and you don’t install packages the traditional way. If you want to learn those things, you can run a VM or a distrobox.

    histic,

    In what world is a Debian base not beginner friendly my fiancé that could barely use windows is using it just fine

    merc,
    @merc@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Has your fiancé had to update drivers? Has he had to upgrade to a new release? Has he had to figure out how to install a version of something that isn’t in the Debian stable repositories?

    If the only application your fiancé uses is Firefox, then he might go a long time before having any kind of problem. It all depends on how he uses it.

    histic,

    It’s basically a Chromebook for her

    merc,
    @merc@sh.itjust.works avatar

    If it’s a her, you mean fiancée, fiancé is used only for men. And, it’s basically a chromebook in how she uses it. But, chromebooks are designed so that you never have to do any system administration. You never have to upgrade drivers or figure out how to get to the next release.

    She probably hasn’t had to deal with that yet, but eventually the system will have to be updated. Over time, cruft piles up and makes it harder and harder to upgrade and manage. Atomic distributions are designed to be much more like chromebooks. Someone else manages the upgrades and the tricky choices, and then you just install their base image.

    histic,

    Autocorrect on my phone always chooses fiancé for some damn reason but I showed her how to update when I set it up for her and she’s been keeping up with it checking once a week and she’s had a couple questions I’ve had to answer but less then when she was just trying to do basic things on windows so it’s been great for me

    merc,
    @merc@sh.itjust.works avatar

    The thing with autocorrect is that you don’t have to accept the correction.

    histic,

    Yea iOS does it automatically unless you select it I’m just lazy

    metaldream,

    Did she set it up herself?

    histic,

    For the most part

    Dave,
    @Dave@lemmy.nz avatar

    How does Bazzite fare when I want to do something a bit different. Install docker, Python, PHP, sqlite, etc. I’d normally just install them, but does this work for Bazzite and other atomic/immutable distros?

    merc,
    @merc@sh.itjust.works avatar

    So, there are multiple ways of installing things. For GUI apps the standard way is flatpaks. Some non-GUI things are installed that way, but it’s less common.

    For CLI apps, homebrew is installed by default and it’s recommended as a way to install CLI things.

    The method I like for apps that have a lot of interdependencies is to use a distrobox. If you want a development environment where multiple apps all talk to each-other, you can isolate them on their own distrobox and install them however you like there.

    I currently have a distrobox running ubuntu that I use for a kubernetes project. In that distrobox I install anything I need with apt, or sometimes from source. Within that kubernetes project I use mise-en-place to manage tools just for that particular sub-project. What I like about doing things this way is that when I’m working on that project I have all the tools I need, and don’t have to worry about the tools for other projects. My base bazzite image is basically unchanged, but my k8s project is highly customized.

    If you really want to, you can still install RPMs as overlays to the base system, it’s just not recommended because that slows down upgrades.

    More details here:

    docs.bazzite.gg/Installing_and_Managing_Software/

    Dave,
    @Dave@lemmy.nz avatar

    Awesome, thanks for the explanation! I’d been put off Bazzite and other immutable distros because I had seen threads saying you basically needed flatpak for everything, but it sounds like that’s not true.

    I don’t need a project at the moment but I will give this a go once I am ready for one!

    merc,
    @merc@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Yeah, I only use flatpak for GUI apps that don’t need any special handling. To be fair, that’s a decent number of the things I use most often: Firefox, Thunderbird, Signal, Kodi, Discord, Gimp, VLC. I think it’s also how I installed some themes for KDE / Plasma.

    Console stuff I’ve either done in a distrobox using the conventions of that OS (apt for the Ubuntu one, DNF for the Fedora one), or I’ve used homebrew. But, I haven’t used too much homebrew because I want my “normal” console to be as unchanged as possible.

    There are a few things I’ve used distrobox-export to make available outside the distrobox.

    It took me a little while to understand how you’re supposed to think about the system, but now that I think I get it, I really like it. My one frustration is that there’s an nVidia driver bug that’s affecting me, and nVidia has been unable to fix it for a few months. I think I’d be in exactly the same situation with a traditional distro. The difference is that if they ever fix it, I’ll have to wait a couple of weeks until the fix makes it to the Bazzite stable build. I suppose I could switch to Bazzite testing and get it within days of it being fixed instead of weeks. Apparently just use a “rebase” command and reboot. But, I’m hesitant to do that because other than the nVidia driver, everything’s so stable.

    Dave,
    @Dave@lemmy.nz avatar

    Lucky for me I don’t have any Nvidia so things sail a bit smoother.

    Thanks for all the advice 🙂

    towerful,

    I moved to endeavouros. First time using a rolling release, and I was struggling with some webdev stuff cause node was on a recent non-lts build and a few other things.
    Not a problem for building, cause I already have that containerised. But things like installing packages was refusing, and obviously couldn’t run dev workflows.

    Until I realised I should just work inside a container.

    I know vscode is still Microsoft (and I’m sure I could get it to work with vscodium), but the dev container workflow is fantastic.
    Absolute game changer.
    And I know I can easily work on a different platform, os whatever. And still have the same dev environment.

    merc,
    @merc@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Until I realised I should just work inside a container.

    Yeah, it’s a game changer. Especially if you have different projects on the go. I’m used to having to deal with an ugly path with all kind of random things in it because I need them for one project. But, with containers / distroboxes / toolbx you can keep those changes isolated.

    bread,
    @bread@feddit.nl avatar

    As long as you’re running KDE, it will feel familiar to a Windows user. I started with Kubuntu which was great until I had a system update, and it completely shat itself. Wanted to try Bazzite next, but the installer wouldn’t work properly, so I installed OpenSUSE Tumbleweed, and I’ve seen no reason to switch since.

    Creat,

    If you’re into primarily gaming, try PikaOS. It’s Debian based and uses the same tooling, but it’s on an optimized kernel. Is generally geared toward gaming.

    There are other gaming specific distros of course, this is just the “Debian”-related one. I would not recommend the real debian if you’re mainly into gaming. It’ll need manual intervention and/or optimization to get games running, or at least get them running well. It’s not impossible (it even hard if you’ve got but is Linux experience), but just harder than necessary.

    axh,

    Not having access to Adobe products is a feature not a bug.

    swag_money,

    maybe give debian testing a go for a little more up to date software :)

    Saucepain,

    Outside of Steam, how have you found gaming compatibility? I know Xbox Gamepass doesn’t work as that’s very specifically a Windows app, but how about other standalone games/platforms?

    towelie,

    Outside of steam will be a case by case basis. I wouldn’t expect a lot of luck, and it may require that you use a compatibility layer like Wine.

    ThrowawayPermanente, do gaming w What the fuck do I do now

    I expect you to die, Mr Bond

    Stamets,
    @Stamets@lemmy.world avatar

    As with most people online, a funny comment will usually get a quick exhale of breath.

    Your comment had me on a 8 second laughing spree, thank you for that

    BagOfHeavyStones,

    Their reply didn't give me any respiratory variation, but yours gave me a brief snort :)

    TurnOnTheSunflower,

    I smiled at yours

    Coldcell,

    18 hours later, someone somewhere is pooping while reading yours.

    victorz,

    I exhaled at the Bond comment, but this made me giggle and smile from ear to ear. 😂

    sundray,

    Minefinger.

    milicent_bystandr,

    He’s the man. The man with the mine-das touch.

    Minefinger!

    Pretty girl, beware of his numbered tiles: they all are mined!

    The truth you won’t find!

    Look behind

    This square, it’s fine!

    Never mind…

    sundray,

    Bravo!

    slazer2au, do games w Does AAAA just mean awful triple A games now?

    It’s just a marketing term. Just like AAA is a marketing term meaning we spent more money advertising this product than we spent on development.

    PlantJam,

    Have any companies besides ubisoft used the term yet?

    Aielman15,
    @Aielman15@lemmy.world avatar

    I seem to remember MS claiming they were opening the “first AAAA dev studio” (The Initiative). Since then, the studio has been radio silent, lost a bunch of talent, and needed help from Crystal Dynamics to work on their first game (Perfect Dark reboot).

    ms_lane,

    iirc Square Enix called Forspoken ‘AAAA’

    aciDC14,

    Ah, i guess the “A” in “AAA” stands for Advertisement.

    quafeinum,
    @quafeinum@lemmy.world avatar

    Except that there was no advertising for concord lol.

    aciDC14,

    True dat.

    ms_lane,

    Monopoly Go is the only real AAAA

    CrabAndBroom,

    The A is for “Actually this game is $90 now instead of $60.”

    sp3tr4l, (edited )

    It originated as a marketing term for Skull and Bones, right?

    Realistically, its a corporate buzzword that is supposed to mean that the game delivers an exceptionally high quality experience, graphically, narratively, gameplay wise…

    …but what it seems to actually mean is that the budget and manhour count and development calendar time ballooned to far greater than the original plan/estimates due to incompetent management.

    At this point, I propose that ‘AAAA’ applies to basically any extremely costly game backed by a huge publisher that owns many development studios, that has been in development for over 4 years before any kind of release, ie, stuck in development hell, execs convinced its going to be a massive hit such that they sunken cost fallacy other games or even other studios out of existence so they can keep funding their uber project.

    With a definition like this, Skull and Bones qualifies, so does Concord and Suicide Squad.

    Basically… it doesn’t have to be from a grandiose marketing campaign attached to a AAA game, its more about being stuck in development hell and continuously funded to the point of destroying other parts of the business making it, like a financial cancer.

    clif, do games w PSA: If you still have a Mojang account for Minecraft: Java Edition, you have less than a week left to migrate to a Microsoft account to avoid profile deletion

    I tried to recover my Mojang account and migrate it three times. Each attempt gets a stock response asking for certain info (receipt, email, username). When I provide this, I get a response from a different support user asking for the same thing I just provided. After three to five back and forths (with the same questions and the same answers) I get busy, frustrated, and leave it for a few weeks.

    Once I have time, I start over and the exact same thing repeats again.

    I wrote it off as a loss last year with an asterisk of “another reason to fucking hate Microsoft”

    themeatbridge,

    Yeah, I bought it during beta testing and my account was attached to an old email. Gave up trying to migrate years ago. I’m actually surprised they still haven’t deleted it already.

    andrew,
    @andrew@lemmy.stuart.fun avatar

    Class action time?

    CaptainBasculin, do games w Steam is cracking down on porn games, to keep Payment Processors happy.

    Steam: I consent

    Adult eroge players: I consent

    Payment companies: I don’t

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    I mean, that’s exactly how third party payment systems have always worked. 🙄

    I guess you can always try buying your porn game with Bitcoin or something.

    Eheran,

    “we have always done it like that” is not an argument for of against anything. It is a mere observation.

    Whitebrow,

    At the workplace if anybody says “we’ve always done it this way” during a meeting where we tackle a problem, that means it’s time to change the hubris because it clearly doesn’t work for us anymore.

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    not an argument for of against anything

    Right. It’s a system of economic exchange, not a moral position. There are ways around this system, but they’re time consuming and annoying to accomplish. So the vendors tend to take the path of least resistance when setting their internal policies. You were taught about Free Markets as this perfect, frictionless vacuum of interactions between buyers and sellers, but it doesn’t work that way and never did.

    For some reason, people seem to confuse being naive and gullible with being moral and upstanding.

    SpaceNoodle,

    Then why are they enforcing moral standards?

    Nikls94,

    Here I am, reading it as

    why are they enforcing moral standards

    73QjabParc34Vebq,

    I guess you can always try buying your porn game with Bitcoin or something.

    No you can't, PayPal made Valve remove them. Not remove the PayPal option for those specific titles.

    echodot,

    Did PayPal actually make valve remove them or did PayPal just say they didn’t want to provide payment processors for them and valve couldn’t be bothered to come up with a solution?

    I can’t see why Paypal would care one way or the other if the games were available on the platform as long as PayPal don’t have to process the payment.

    UnderpantsWeevil,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    PayPal made Valve remove them

    You can buy games outside of the Steam store.

    HeyThisIsntTheYMCA,
    @HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world avatar

    “what’re you doing son”

    “mining for porn”

    ivanafterall,
    @ivanafterall@lemmy.world avatar

    Daylight or dark,

    In rain or shine,

    It don’t much matter

    Down in the mine.

    Where the tunnel’s deep,

    Lord the air gets thin,

    That’s the way of life

    For the minin’ man.

    Fredselfish,
    @Fredselfish@lemmy.world avatar

    Luckly I. can buy anime porn games straight from source dev. Just checked and my Treasure Hunter Claire is still in my library, so guess this affects only unbought games? But I also bought the game direct too.

    rottenmummy, do games w We did it! 🥳

    Everyone please don’t stop signing to cancel out the fake signatures

    EU: eci.ec.europa.eu/045/public/#/screen/home

    UK: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/702074/

    ampersandrew, do games w I finally decided to go full piracy against big companies
    @ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

    If something isn’t respecting your values, I’m of the opinion that you make a stronger statement by not even pirating those games. If you’re spending time playing them, you’re also not spending time and money playing some game that was meticulously made to respect your values. You’re fine playing indie games, but you’d play more of them if you gave up playing these AAA games that you decided to pirate. You talk to your friends and on forums about the games you play, which will at some point convince someone else to buy and play them, too. If you want them to hurt, so that they change, don’t even give them the time of day.

    B0NK3RS,
    @B0NK3RS@lemmy.world avatar

    This is the best way. Give your time and money to something you believe in instead of wasting a moment on something you don’t.

    CodenameDarlen,

    That’s right, it’s exactly what I think, you are one way or another helping a game to be known. The same strategy people talked about why Microsoft don’t shut every Office cracker, they want normal people to use it and get used to it, so companies will use it too, eventually, and they can audit some IT companies, charge a hell amount of money if they use pirated software.

    I agree with everything, but I’ll still pirate AAA games, just for the experience. I classify publishers/developers companies like this:

    • Companies it doesn’t even worth playing to avoid indirect marketing: Ubisoft, EA
    • Companies that at least it worth pirating: Activistion, Rockstar, etc…

    Let’s be honest, the games are good, probably made by some people who love what they were doing, but then it was put behind a shitty business model, because developers are just trying to make a living while executives trying to harvest all the money.

    I think as the time goes, developers will start making their choices better, leave predatory companies, start or join indie companies, and I, at the same time, will migrate to a more indie focused gaming.

    ampersandrew,
    @ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

    You follow your own moral compass. My feelings are, if I was short on money, I’ve got a backlog and a stream of games being thrown at me for free (legally) such that I’d never have to pirate and never be bored. I’m willing to pay more for a good product, and I so thoroughly enjoyed Borderlands 1-3 that I bought the deluxe edition of 4 that was a no-go for you; they’re one of the few AAA devs keeping LAN alive, and that is worth me throwing me money at them to tell them they’re doing it right, on top of just making a very fun game. The companies whose games you’re pirating are the ones that need the attention the least, but every game you could be instead funneling time and money into benefits so much more from each individual sale. Plus, the reason we’ve got so much anti-consumer bullshit in games now is because piracy was a boogeyman for the industry for a long time, so I’d rather not give them any additional data points to make things even worse when we’ve already got an entire era of video game history that disappears when their servers go offline. That’s how I see it anyway.

    The times I don’t feel gross about pirating, personally, are when the pirated version is supposedly the better version of the game (like emulating an old console game instead of playing a compromised PC port) or when the game is delisted and no longer available through ordinary channels, like Battlefield 2. You do what feels right to you. Pirating Nintendo games is an option to me, but they bother me as a consumer in all sorts of ways, and I instead spend that time and money on games like The Thaumaturge rather than playing through Tears of the Kingdom. Nintendo will be just fine without my sale. The team behind The Thaumaturge may or may not have made enough money to make a second game. If Nintendo was a less shitty company, I’d be buying and playing Metroid Prime 4. Maybe I’ll end up discovering and enjoying something else during that time that needs my dollar more instead.

    felbane, do games w So are GOG going to relist Devotion? Seeing how they're about freedom to buy games.

    This entire controversy is from 2020. Spoiler: GOG did not relist the game. Red Candle sold it on their own storefront, and both Steam and GOG retained a tally in the “bends over for CCP” column.

    Ulrich,
    @Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

    Steam didn’t take it down from Steam. The devs did.

    bjoern_tantau, do gaming w What are signs that the game devs aren't gamers themselves?
    @bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de avatar

    When there are several waterfalls in the game and not one has a secret behind it.

    PrivateNoob, do games w The UK Stop Killing Games petition has reached 100.000 signatures

    WHAAAT LETSGOOOOO DABABY. Thank you PirateSoftware for the publicity :3

    atro_city,

    And fuck you too btw PirateSoftware :)

    rustyfish,
    @rustyfish@lemmy.world avatar
    atro_city,

    Oh that's good. I like that.

    sp3ctr4l,

    Wait untill people realize that Ross Scott has had a running show, ‘Freeman’s Mind’, going back to basically the fucking machinima days, where he just does a playthrough of all of Half Life and voices Gordon’s inner thoughts.

    Its still on his youtube channel!

    youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6PNZBb6b9LvDWpI-5CPYU…

    We are going to need another petition to get Ross an honorary title, a goddamned bust of an upraised fist in an HEV suit, clenching a crowbar, with ‘For Exceptional Valor and Dutiful Service in the Defense of Video Gaming’ emblazoned on its base.

    Let the memes flow!

    TheTetrapod,

    I remember Freeman’s Mind, but I have no idea who any of the people in those pictures are.

    sp3ctr4l,

    Ross is the dude with long hair and laser eyes.

    On the right in the second pic.

    Orygin,

    Holy shit that’s him ?
    He my hero now

    Klear,

    I came for Freeman’s Mind, stayed for the Game Dungeon, got deadgamepilled in the process.

    I highly recommend checking all of his stuff out.

    Killer_Tree,

    Same! The next step is watching his monthly proof-of-life video chats while working on other stuff 😅

    Klear,

    I kinda wish his next videochat is just him opening up a bottle of champagne, drinking it all without saying a word and that’s it =D

    finitebanjo,

    Whats wrong with PirateSoftware? He runs a ferret rescue which doesn’t claim any tax incentives and he teaches people about security and ethics, I’ve never heard of him having beef with anyone.

    parody,

    Yeah he seems pretty positive and helpful, so did his bias mislead him on this one?

    Also I wasn’t even sure he was still a huge fan of his former employer—but now that I think of it I guess he was really pleased with his time there, cuz he’s proud of his ban wave strategies and stuff

    Bongles, (edited )

    He tends to be condescending, toxic, and dishonest. I happened to watch this video the other day that covers a fair bit of stuff including the stop killing games petitions, if you’ve got 20 minutes.

    youtube.com/watch?v=R-RaQZPzhqU

    Things like

    • completely misrepresenting the stop killing games initiative.
    • bitching for quite a while that “someone” pulled a mob during a world of warcraft raid causing a wipe, going back to see who it was to remove them, seeing it was himself and then justifying why it was now the right call.
    • running away from his group in world of warcraft in a fight claiming he has no mana, while he’s wasting moves to drain the last of his mana and he has ways of getting around half of it back. This was during some kind of creater guild thing where if you die you lose your character. So abandoning his team to save himself and lying about it.
    • banning/blocking everyone who criticizes or corrects him on these things
    • DMCA’d and threatened legal action on an indie dev for a parody game that included him as a cockroach.
    chrislowles,

    That video was really good, felt kinda Drew Gooden-esque in parts.

    parody,

    OOF

    finitebanjo,

    Never meet your heroes ig

    Luccajan,

    Is this about the WoW incident? Or dit something else happen?

    PumaStoleMyBluff,

    He has made videos and numerous comments directing his audience not to sign, claiming it will kill games.

    Luccajan,

    Than he has really lost it. Leaving a game that people paid for in a playable state is the least a developer/publisher can do.

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