eurogamer.net

Gadg3tm, do games w Starfield install size revealed, available to preload now
@Gadg3tm@lemmy.world avatar

Time for another SSD

Appoxo,
@Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

We have gone from cartridges, to CDs, to kind-of cartridges.
We have kinda gone full circle! Now we need something lile a holocron or like a Cortana AI chip to store an even bigger amount.

theRealBassist,

I’m here for data holocrons.

Just like set into an interface built into your desk and boom, hard drive.

Make it open up like jedi holocrons and I’ll buy 10 just to play with them

AlexisFR,
@AlexisFR@jlai.lu avatar

Yeah, add to that MSFS with all extensions, and now my 1 TB 970 Pro isn’t enough : (

Crankpork, do gaming w Starfield install size revealed, available to preload now

I want to play it, but finding 120gb for Baldur’s Gate 3 was hard enough, so I’m going to have to pass until I can afford a bigger hard drive.

phuntis,
@phuntis@sopuli.xyz avatar

I’m pretty sure bethesda said playing starfield with a hard drive isn’t great 1tb SSDs aren’t too expensive anymore I’d really recommend moving away from a hard drive

Crankpork,

Ah, yeah, I was using hard drive as a catch-all term. My laptop only holds M.2 drives. I’m old, it’s all hard drives to me. =P

phuntis,
@phuntis@sopuli.xyz avatar

ah ok

MrZee, (edited )

Old curmudgeons unite! I totally knew what you meant.

Edit: that said, I would add NVMe SSD as the way to go… although I think that is pretty much all you find these days. Are non-nvme m.2 drives a thing?

conciselyverbose,

Yeah you can get SATA m.2 drives.

lloram239,

M.2 SATA drives are still a thing, same port, but different slower protocol as NVMe. They are less common, but still around and available in TB size. Don’t think there is any reason to get this outside of compatibility with old hardware.

There is also mSATA, which is a different port from M.2, but has a very similar look and size. Also slower than NVMe and no reason to get them unless you have hardware that uses them (e.g. some old Beelink miniPC have them).

hogart,
@hogart@feddit.nu avatar

A 1tb Steam Deck-sized NVMe drive is about 120 bucks right now. Not cheap. But not insanely prices either.

narc0tic_bird,

2280-sized SSDs are significantly cheaper than 2230-sized ones.

hogart,
@hogart@feddit.nu avatar

They are, by a large margain.

cambriakilgannon,
interolivary, (edited )
!deleted5791 avatar

I definitely support the hypothesis that calling all storage drives hard drives is an old curmudgeon thing 😅 I’ve been doing computer nerdery for way over 30 years, and a hard drive is a hard drive even if it doesn’t have spinny disks in it

Crankpork,

I don’t know when I became my mother. It happened so gradually I barely even noticed.

interolivary,
!deleted5791 avatar

I think we all swear to ourselves that we won’t grow up to be like those old people who seem to cling to the past.

Then one day you find yourself going “well it’s a hard drive to me, I don’t care what it should be called”

averyminya,

SSD’s are hard!

interolivary,
!deleted5791 avatar

Huh I always thought “hard drive” was the umbrella category, and SSDs and spinny disk drives are subcategories.

thanevim,

I've been seeing both recently. I've opted to err on the same side and just make it clear when I'm talking about spinning rust versus solid state.

Onihikage,
@Onihikage@beehaw.org avatar

I think storage or storage drive is the umbrella term these days. “Hard drive” was always short for “Hard Disk Drive” (which was named in comparison to Floppy Disk Drive) but since it was the only type of drive used for non-volatile internal storage for a good 20 years or so, it became a catch-all term. These days, many people understand there’s two different kinds and a lot of systems have both, so hard drive is becoming recognized to mean the spinning disks; as opposed to SSD, which is now an umbrella term incorporating 2.5" SATA, M.2 SATA, and M.2 NVMe, which are all Solid State Drives but different combinations of interfaces and form factors.

Poggervania,
@Poggervania@kbin.social avatar

Nah, the "SS" and "HD" bits refers to how each storage disk reads data. HDDs use hard metal disks to read & write data, hence it got the misnomer hard disk drive. SSDs use solid state flash memory to read & write data, hence it being called a solid state drive.

If you want the general category, you'd want to say "storage drive" specifically since if you say "drive", that can also refer to an optical drive (AKA the CD slot) or a USB drive (AKA flash/thumb drives).

Blake,

The classic, computer science term for all of these devices is “secondary storage”, if anyone’s looking for a way to confuse people briefly before explaining that you mean “hard drives, SSDs, etc.”

Luvon,

M2 pcie 4 drives are getting pretty cheap recently. I got a 2tb one for 100 with a heat sink on sale. My main from Kingston was 70 with 1tb

Naatan,

You do realize storage drives aren’t exactly expensive?

ag_roberston_author,
!deleted4201 avatar

Not expensive, but it’s another expense that not everyone can drop immediately.

For most it would be a choice of upgrading to a new drive or getting two games.

Naatan, (edited )

Sure. And of course it remains to be seen whether Starfield is worth it, but it’s undeniable that a game of this magnitude isn’t a common occurrence. If they realize the game’s potential, then missing out on it because of a relatively inexpensive hardware upgrade seems like a shame.

ram, (edited )
@ram@lemmy.ca avatar

a game of this magnitude isn’t a common occurrence.

It kind of is though. We’ve already had at least 3 games of this magnitude drop this year alone.

Naatan,

I’m guessing one of those is Baldurs Gate, but I’m struggling to think of two more. There’s been some decent games for sure but none other that I’d put on the same scale. Diablo 4 had the potential but squandered it imo.

ram,
@ram@lemmy.ca avatar

None are baldur’s gate. While I’m loving baldur’s gate, it’s far from a market disruptor. The three games I was thinking of were TOTK, Diablo 4, and FFXVI.

Naatan,

To each their own of course, but out of the 4 games you named in your comment I would definitely rank BG3 on top on a scale of “market disruption”.

sportskeeda.com/…/baldur-s-gate-3-s-ambition-deem…

That said this is all highly subjective of course. One person’s game of the year is another person’s biggest disappointment.

ram,
@ram@lemmy.ca avatar

To be clear, of the ones listed I only care about TOTK and BG3. I’m looking at “megaton games” by a general ascertainment of how relevant they are to the enthusiast gamers, and how much they sell. FFXVI came out and kinda did not great for an FF game so I’ll concede there. No idea about Diablo 4, I assume it was middling or “as expected”, while TOTK sold 18 million in its first 6 weeks; though I may largely be familiar with that due to being in proximity of Nintendo-related circles.

It really is subjective what measure we’re using though. BG3’s been amazing in relative terms to what would typically be expected of “DnD RPG” (maybe there’s a better term), and developers have been reacting to it far more than they would most other megaton games. TOTK’s no slouch on its own, impressing developers over its extremely impressive yet performent physics engine.

polygon.com/…/tears-of-the-kingdom-bridge-physics…

Anyways, not really interested in arguing my perspective though, since like you said this is extremely subjective, and honestly quite arbitrary.

Naatan,

All fair points. I wasn’t trying to argue, just to have a friendly discourse :) My calling it a “game of magnitude” is obviously very open to interpretation.

For what it’s worth what I was trying to say was that this game has the potential to be unlike any game before it, so it’d be a shame to miss out on it just to avoid a minor hardware upgrade. But that in itself is of course also subjective. Suffice to say I myself won’t be missing out… :p

ram,
@ram@lemmy.ca avatar

Fair say! I’m personally not someone who particularly vibes with the aesthetic of bethesda games so I’ll be missing out, but I hope it’s as good as fans expect ❤️

sim_,

Is a game like Starfield “missable” though? Games like this’ll realistically be accessible for years (decades?) to come (not even counting Bethesda’s love of rereleasing their latest hit a la Skyrim lol). They might miss out on the cultural discussion if the game’s a hit though, that’s definitely a trade-off of late adoption, like what I’m experiencing with BG3 lol.

Naatan,

Yeah that’s fair. It might even be worth waiting a year so the community can fix all the bugs :p I know I’m too impulsive to wait that long though. Played through Cyberpunk at launch and loved it!

pixelscience,

I’m pretty conscious of other people financial situations, but a 512GB SSD is 19.99 on amazon. That’s 1/3 the price of the game.

ag_roberston_author,
!deleted4201 avatar

If you have a 512gb SSD and want more space than you need an 1tb or 2tb, and NVME m2s cost more than regular ssds

averyminya,

Not really honestly. 1TB Sabrent rocket is $40. 1TB SATA SSD is $34.

realChem, do gaming w Starfield install size revealed, available to preload now
@realChem@beehaw.org avatar

Exciting stuff. I’ve long since vowed never to pre-order anything from Bethesda ever again though, so I’ll be waiting to hear what the vibe is once other folks start playing it. Right now it very much seems like it could either be great or disappointing. We’ll see in a couple weeks’ time I s’pose

orca,

I’ll be playing it via GamePass and can try to report back once I have some hours under my belt in it.

CMLVI,
@CMLVI@kbin.social avatar

it is on gamepass

I'll just delete the large anti-preorder manifesto I was typing lol. Not that it doesn't remain, just not for this game for me in particular.

ludwig,

I’ve vowed never to pre-order, period.

Or at least until there are solid reviews, which was what I did with ToTK.

Gaming companies have to earn their money from me every single time.

BruceTwarzen,

It's the best selling game on steam facepalm

ludwig,

What is?

monad,

Starfield and it’s not even out yet

ludwig,
ludwig,
ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

Steam muddies this a bit though, since you have two weeks or two hours of playtime to try it out and get your full money back, so it removes a lot of the risk in the first place; in some cases, it removes all of it.

DarkThoughts,

I've spent like 5 hours tweaking & compiling shaders in TLoU. lol
And it took 1-2 months for it to be in a playable state.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

No other game takes that long to compile shaders, so that could have been a red flag for a refund on its own. And you can pay attention to forums and games press in the meantime to find out when it's in a playable state before you repurchase it. But on launch day, you could have it preloaded and smoke test it with no risk.

DarkThoughts,

The shader compilation time varied greatly between users. Mine were 40 minutes tops and later I think around 20 minutes. But you'd have to redo them on every update, just to try and see whether the latest patch fixed any of the issues you had. For me it basically became worse before it got better. It's particularly sad because the game itself is great. I watched countless of let's plays of both Part 1 and 2. So it's a real shame that their entry onto the PC market started with such a terrible port. It left such a sour taste that I still haven't played through it.

It's certainly not the only one though. Horizon Zero Dawn had similar long shader compilation times for me. Social media is unfortunately useless, because there's just too many fanboys that will tell you everything is great, burying any sort of valid criticism (Cyberpunk 1.5 for example).

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

There are also Steam reviews, reddit forums, etc. One person saying it's still a problem is more valuable than two saying it isn't. I've got Mortal Kombat 1 pre-ordered, and that series has a history of shaky PC ports, with enough cause for me to believe it could happen again. If all's well, I'll know before I finish work for the day from reviews, forums, etc., and I'll get Shang Tsung for no additional cost. If not, I get my money back, and they can earn my money from me some other time.

DarkThoughts,

What do you think I was referencing there in my previous comment? /r/Diablo for example literally permabanned me for speaking out against the predatory FOMO tactics in D4, after I was attacked & insulted for it by several users that also downvoted me into oblivion. And now they can eat their own sock, now that post release the hivemind opinion swapped. Everyone on Reddit and the reviews also said how great of a game CP2077 now was after those updates. Well shit, it isn't, it just got rid of a whole bunch of launch issues, while the core issues were still the same and the game still had a massive performance bug until the next major patch. You simply cannot trust those communities anymore because everyone identifies so much with their product that they see any sort of critique as a personal insult.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

But that's why I said one person saying it's still a problem is more valuable than two saying that it isn't. There are more resources beyond those. Quick looks, Digital Foundry, SkillUp, Let's Plays...and as you said, games can still have these issues beyond day 1, so at that point not pre-ordering wouldn't have saved you from it either. But two hours is certainly usually enough to find the obvious deal-breakers if the other resources fail you. Cyberpunk 2077 worked pretty damn well for me even right at launch; I didn't pre-order it, but even if I did, I probably would have been able to tell in two hours if it was horrifically broken like all of the video evidence from other players showed it was, in general. I also really enjoyed it, so that's just a difference in taste between you and I.

DarkThoughts,

You seem to ignore what I am saying / the point I'm trying to make. People who say it is still a problem aren't getting heard by those who should read it, because the people who say the opposite will do everything they can to bury them. This results in you looking for opinions and just getting positive ones / yay sayers. Content creators suffer from similar issues. For starters, most of them are just clickbait bullshit deliverers and blocked immediately anyway. A lot of them tend to also fall in line with the devs though, because they often are in some sort of sponsored partner program or don't want to risk losing benefits from those game companies by being "too critical". And with how YT algorithms work, most smaller channels don't even have a chance to appear on your search.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

So if those people aren't seeing the information they need, they should not pre-order. I'm confident that if you know these other avenues to find out this information, it's easy to avoid getting burned.

moody,

The only “pre-order” I’ve ever done was Elden Ring, and that was only the day before release because there was a small discount on it. I was definitely going to play it anyway, so I would have been spending the money regrardless. I’m usually pretty patient in terms of gaming.

conciselyverbose,

I might if I didn't just get BG3. I'll still get it pretty close to launch barring serious issues, though. Everything I've seen about the scale and what the game is is what I've been waiting for for a while.

I know Bethesda isn't perfect and I didn't love FO4, but it's in large part because of the reliance on VATS for combat instead of making guns feel OK. Gunplay looks a lot better and more dynamic and just that combined with Bethesda's world building/sense of exploration (which exists in Fallout, too; it's just overshadowed to me by the mechanics) are super promising. There are always bugs with anything as ambitious as Bethesda makes, because it takes dozens of hours of testing per 10 minute encounter to comprehensively test one, and you can't exactly unit test video games (though we might not be super far off from training AI to supplement human testing), but I rarely experience anything near as annoying as the vitriol implies and I just don't care.

I get the don't preorder principle, but it's on steam. I get to have it downloaded ahead of time and ready for launch, and if there actually are issues it's extremely simple to get my cash back. Refunds make as much (or more) impact as waiting to buy it, so if a game is actually broken my voice is theoretically louder anyways.

realChem,
@realChem@beehaw.org avatar

I’m personally not so much worried about it being buggy or broken, that stuff gets patched. I’m more worried that it’ll be fundamentally disappointing in some way, which is something that I probably wouldn’t discover until long past the refund window. To be clear, I’m cautiously optimistic, but that caution leads me to wait until a week or so after release to hear what folks are saying about it.

Bluefold, do games w Baldur's Gate 3 review - a critical success, with critical failures

One QoL improvement I’ve not seen here is a better journal system. When I can’t further a quest line even something vague like ‘Continue your journey so learn more’ would be great. I have spent time on some quests hunting down a person to discover the quest can only be completed in the next act multiple times now.

BaskinRobbins,

This was an issue I had with DOS2 as well. It was at the point I literally wrote stuff down in a notebook so that I could keep track of the side quests and what the last step was. Eventually they did overhaul the journal in that game to be a lot more useful though.

NightOwl, do gaming w Red Dead Redemption on PlayStation has one impressive upgrade

Only 30 fps.

Meowoem, do games w Baldur's Gate 3 review - a critical success, with critical failures

Loving the game, do agree though that it starts to get a bit muddled and confusing - at times it feels like I’m not really sure which quests I’m doing, why I’m doing it or what I’m trying to achieve – very realistic to real life in that regard but it can feel a bit of a chore

tburkhol,

I kind of stopped paying attention to side quests. In a lot of RPGs, I feel like they’re discrete, separate errands, and usually contained within the area where they’re given. BG3 side quests seem a lot more integrated, in the sense that I’ll often just happen along the next step in one as I pursue main quest. If not, then it may be because the next step is in the next Act. And some of them seem to be mutually exclusive.

Maybe because it’s my first play through, but I’m now in ‘if it happens, it happens’ mode, and I’m confident that there are enough opportunities for me to make different choices to have a substantially different experience next time.

Naz,

*I don’t know who I am

I don’t know where I am

All I know

Is I must kill*

You have tested: The Dark Urge. Congratulations!

Scooter411, do gaming w Red Dead Redemption on PlayStation has one impressive upgrade
@Scooter411@lemmy.ml avatar

Saved you a click

I initially suspected we were just looking at simple TAA on PS5, but the options menu indicates that FSR2 is actually in use here - AMD’s popular temporal upsampling and anti-aliasing solution. The weird thing is that every shot on both PS4 Pro and PS5 seems to resolve to a full 4K resolution, meaning the FSR2 is providing anti-aliasing coverage without a performance benefit, as the game is already running at native resolution. There’s a possibility dynamic res is in place, but I didn’t spot any evidence of it in my testing. It’s unusual for sure, but that seems to be the situation. So, in effect, developer Double Eleven is using FSR2 as a temporal super-sampler - and the benefits are obvious. Xbox consoles retain the 2x MSAA of Xbox 360 and while it’s still impressive on One X and Series X in particular, PlayStation just looks smoother and cleaner.

SatouKazuma,
@SatouKazuma@lemmy.world avatar

Careful, everyone. This user’s a hero.

dudewitbow,

Its unusual for FSR. But the upscaling tech roots in anti aliasing. DLSS was originally designed to be an anti aliasing tech, quite litterally in the name (Deep Learning Super Sampling), so it isnt out of the picture that FSR could be used for the same. It was only later marketed to get more performance at lower resolutions afterword. (Im aware the post is not your thoughts, just more of a response to the specific segment you pointed out)

charles, do gaming w Red Dead Redemption on PlayStation has one impressive upgrade

In case anyone didn’t want to open the article, the feature is improved image quality due to AMD’s FSR2 on PlayStation being used over 2x MSAA on Xbox.

There’s also a slightly different gamma on PlayStation, combined with the different anti-alliasing it results in cleaner looking frames. The article has side by side comparisons as well.

TheOakTree,

I don’t really understand the purpose of showing FSR2 vs FXAA/MSAA with still frames… FSR2 struggles most with motion and thin/dense high-contrast areas, none of which are showcased in the screenshots, so of course FSR2 is going to look better.

bionicjoey, do games w Baldur's Gate 3 review - a critical success, with critical failures

One qol improvement I’d like to see is faster team roster selection. Like every time you leave camp, you should get to select which companions will go with you (similar to many other CRPGs). Right now I find myself not using certain companions as often, mostly because I don’t want to go run around my camp for a minute rearranging my squad. It should be a simple drag and drop interface.

FarceMultiplier,
@FarceMultiplier@lemmy.ca avatar

I never change my group because Gale and Laz’ael are annoying as hell.

bionicjoey,

How dare you badmouth Laezel you Tskva!

Fafner, do gaming w Starfield has housing system, player jail, and more reveals Bethesda in new Q&A
@Fafner@yiffit.net avatar

Remember: “It just works.”

Never pre-order, never have hope.

shiveyarbles,

Hope is the mind killer

Acedelgado,

Luckily it's on Gamepass that I subscribe to anyways. So no regrets of it's bad other than the wasted bandwidth to download.

Namstel,

Never give up, never surrender.

Mandy, do gaming w Starfield has housing system, player jail, and more reveals Bethesda in new Q&A

Not only hyping a features they had for several games now, but I bet my left ovarie thats they all gonna be as broken as their earliest iteration

OctopusKurwa,

I want it to be good for all my friends who have an Xbox but a darker side of me is also relishing the YouTube content should it be a broken mess.

Mandy,

cant wait for the backwards flying dragon, i mean the backwards flying spaceships

RileyIsBad,
@RileyIsBad@beehaw.org avatar

Yup, that.

Don’t get me wrong, I love me some Bethesda games, but only 5 years after they’ve come out and with a 200 plugin modlist.

Mandy,

i like modding as much as the next gal but this type of relationship bethesda has with their fans is not good, at all, and i never see anyone ever mention it

ursakhiin,

It’s not good that the games are broken and they are relying on modders to fix them. It would be totally fine if they released a fully functioning thematic sandbox for modders to play in though.

The thing about Bethesda games is that their modding tools are far and away from any other game, making serious improvements much more accessible. That’s one of the major draws of them.

I just wish every game didn’t have an unofficial patch requirement to keep it from crashing too often.

Mandy,

exactly, i would have no problem in that case

DaSaw, (edited )

People talk about it all the time. Longtime fans just don’t care. I’ve been playing these since Daggerfall. Bethesda Softworks makes a very particular kind of game this is very appealing to some of us, and nobody else makes them like that, not that I’m aware of. You think Skyrim was buggy on release? It’s got nothing on Daggerfall, but I loved it anyway.

Mods make the game better, give them a longevity they wouldn’t otherwise have. Skyrim with Frostfall and a needs mod is almost my dream game. But I was perfectly satisfied with the game on Day 1.

Mandy,

Im no stranger to daggerfall either but that just highlights the problem with the company but some fanatics who blindly follow then

Their games don’t have to be buggy messes till modders do bestesdas job for them, mods should primarily enhance, not fix.

And these people who don’t care (as you that is) are one key problem why bethesdas and other companys launch their games like an alpha they’ll never fix (hows their ducttape held severly outdated engine gonna cripple this title I wonder)

DaSaw,

We have multiple generations of developers releasing like this. With a few rare exceptions (which are the only games from 15+ years ago most people remember), all games release buggy. Even on console, for every Super Mario Bros. that played the way it was supposed to, there were ten unplayably buggy examples of licensed shovelware. And half of “Nintendo Hard” was just that these games were janky as fuck.

Games are hard to make. Ridiculously huge and complex games are even harder to make. If you think you can do better, please do so.

Mandy,

dont you see the inherit problem that these devs all themselves created with the increasing cost, increasing scope, increasingly forcing bigger retention spans? these games dont need to be this needlessly huge and even than there is no need to have them almost broken (have you SEEN how cd project red always releases their games?)

i never said it was that much better back than, its just much easier to have all of this garbage available than it was back than cause now its flooding the online stores

and of course “do it better yourself than”, i dont have to be a mastercoder to recognise subpar quality, i dont need to be a masterchef to know when something tastes bad

kureta,

I’ll be busy playing Baldur’s Gate 3 anyway. Will look back when they finish fixing it after release.

cambriakilgannon,

We’ll go play it once the community finishes it with mods :')

storksforlegs, (edited ) do gaming w Starfield has housing system, player jail, and more reveals Bethesda in new Q&A
@storksforlegs@beehaw.org avatar

I guess the only thing is to wait and see what its like.

But the fact that its single player and seems to be geared toward customization/unique backstories (actual rpg stuff) sounds very promising.

Napain, do gaming w Starfield has housing system, player jail, and more reveals Bethesda in new Q&A

it just works

JuniperusVox, do gaming w Starfield has housing system, player jail, and more reveals Bethesda in new Q&A
@JuniperusVox@beehaw.org avatar

Why are y’all so damn negative? Every thread I’ve seen on here about Starfield has been like this. It’s not even out yet, god damn

CIWS-30,

Given how modern AAA games are and Bethesda's recent track history, it's not negative to be skeptical, it's smart.

Especially since despite Microsoft watching over them and helping them to have the most "bug free launch in history" it's still probably going to be a hot mess for weeks to a month after launch. I want to be pleasantly surprised, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Plus, the recent release of Baldur's Gate 3 with no microtransactions or season passes, etc. has gotten peoples' standards up, and given that Microsoft paid a lot of money to buy Bethesda, we're aware that they're going to have to make that money back somehow, and will probably give into the temptation to do some really player unfriendly things to do it.

Bethesda's been going all in on surprisingly expensive microtransactions for really tiny amounts of content, like in Fallout 4 and 76, and it wouldn't be shocking for them to continue in that direction. People aren't being mindlessly negative, they're looking at current and past trends and making an educated guess about the future.

Kolanaki,
!deleted6508 avatar

Bethesda’s been going all in on surprisingly expensive microtransactions for really tiny amounts of content, like in Fallout 4 and 76, and it wouldn’t be shocking for them to continue in that direction.

This isn’t even new. Bethesda literally set the standard for overpriced MTX with the god damn horse armor in Oblivion for $7.50. That was the first time in history the microtransaction was used and it garnered much the same response as they do now.

SuperSpecialNickname,

Have you seen the state of AAA gaming right now? And Bethesda’s past record? I would be surprised if it didn’t turn out to be shit.

Zalack,
@Zalack@startrek.website avatar

Am I taking crazy pills? Except for 76, an MMO, Bethesdas record has been pretty good for single-player games, no?

I’ve played all of their games since Morrowind on Launch and always had a blast.

Faydaikin,
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

Then you should know the content quality of their games have gone steadily down since Morrowind, as they have prioritized trend-chasing over, pretty much, everything else.

It culminated in 76’s concept and I highly doubt they are done with it.

Mothra,
@Mothra@mander.xyz avatar

We’re on the same pills, haters gonna hate

SuperSpecialNickname,

Their games have gotten wide as the ocean and shallow as a puddle. The mechanics and quest design are so simplified and shallow. Skyrim and Fallout 4 are more like action games with some light RPG elements. As noted by the comment below, they’re chasing trends. Newer games can’t compare to options you have in New Vegas or even Morrowind.

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

The studio has changed. Just because Fallout 4 wasn't a "true RPG" doesn't mean I didn't have nigh on 400 hours of novel joy with it, maybe even because it wasn't just another core Bethesda RPG but because it was something new, a new kind of looting and crafting experience in that same large, dynamic open world that Bethesda could bring through. Morrowind was over 20 years ago. Bethesda isn't the one making those kinds of games anymore.

Have the games gotten shallower as RPGs? Sure. Fucking pac man is shallow at this point, does that mean everyone should hate on it en masse? If you don't like the direction Bethesda is going that's completely understandable, but it just seems absurd that people come out of the woodwork in these threads to just poop on a game that isn't even out yet. Save that for when it releases and it does or doesn't meet your expectations, as of now it just sounds like everybody is trying to get as entrenched as possible in their prejudice.

Bethesda games are buggy, what an old meme. It's more of a meme than a true criticism now because most games have bugs, especially ones as large as Bethesda games, and even on launch I've played other Bethesda games and enjoyed myself just fine. It's good to be cautiously skeptical and not pre order, you should be skeptical, but swinging all the way past that to being hard-line negative is not the right answer either.

And I know you personally are not reflecting all of these views, your comment just comes off as supportive of both genuine and over the top memetic criticisms due to replying in a seemingly justifying manner to someone confused about the buggy game comments. When it comes to those sorts of comments I'm talking generally about what I've seen from people on this platform.

I'm not saying Starfield will be an old Bethesda return to form or bug free on release, I'm just saying be cautious, not completely pedal to the metal negative, and accept that Bethesda as it was is dead.

Faydaikin, (edited )
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

At the risk of sounding like a cynical bastard, I’m gonna address some of your points.

Just let me start off with: If you enjoy the games, great. More power to you.

The lack of depth isn’t just reserved to the RPG mechanics. The story, the dialog, the characters… everything is lacking in depth. All the “Environmental Story Telling” in the world can’t make up for the neglected writing.

And everything that has been added isn’t new by any stretch of the imagination. It’s all borrowed from other current franchises, then half-assed and shoveled in by Bethesda. The loot system being one of the few things that actually works as intended.

Pac-Man is old as balls and I haven’t seen anyone trying to pass it off as something new. Hell, even The Legend of Zelda series still follow the exact same premise of the very first game on the NES. The sequels get bigger, smoother and more beautiful. But it’s still the same game at it’s core, because it actually works.

Next point: All games launch buggy. Yep, and it has become a bit of a meme with Bethesda for a reason. Their newest games still have the same game-breaking bugs in them as Morrowind did. Some have even gotten worse. The modding community are literally fixing the same stuff, every title. Which is amazing, as Beth keeps updating their crappy Engine, but at no point in 21 years did they take the time to iron this shit out.

I do agree that we shouldn’t be shitting on a game before it comes out. But it’s not like people have zero idea what they are in for. From what has been shown, Starfield just looks like Fallout 4 with a fresh coat of paint. And there is a bit of a track-record to back most of the assumptions up.

As i said: If you like the road they have been taking with their games and you enjoy them. Keep enjoying them.

I think there’s just a general sense of disappointment from a lot of old players. And it builds up fast in the echo-chambers of the internet and can come off as aggressive even when it wasn’t the intention. And it works both ways. Dear lord, have I met some angry people defending games, simply because they can’t fathom the idea that they might just like playing a ‘bad game.’

It’s the circle of public gaming forums.

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

I understand your position as well, I think we just need to have more moderate discussions and less going to extremes.

I didn't address the writing and dialogue of the games because those are absolutely getting the short end of the stick in terms of what Bethesda is spending their resources on, but I found the systems that they put work into in Fallout 4 worthy enough of that time spent instead, and I think that says more about my preferences of what I like in a game than it really does about if Bethesda games are "better" or not this way.

I tend to prefer moment to moment gameplay and I found Fallout 4's complex interlocking loop of wanting to build a settlement and modify my equipment, leading to tracking down certain materials and identifying where they may be logically found, to going there on foot, to looting the place systematically and engaging the enemies with the weapons and armor I modified and have personal attachment to, to managing my inventory with an investment and thought that never mattered as much in previous Bethesda titles, etc.

That whole loop and set of mechanics that play into each other added an incredible wealth of what I consider more moment to moment gameplay depth than just enjoying the wider possibilities of dialogue options in past Bethesda titles.

Even at its best good old days Bethesda writing doesn't really compare to other games much more focused on writing (not going to mention New Vegas here because Obsidian is one of those devs better at writing than Bethesda). Bethesda games are always more than the sum of their parts.

My point about Pac Man is more that you don't dislike the game's lack of depth in certain areas just for its own sake, but because you're comparing it to the studio's past. When Pac Man Championship Edition and DX released, those
had favorable receptions because they took the arcadey roots of the franchise to their logical conclusion instead of swapping to more accessible gameplay trends as Bethesda did.

Not an invalid criticism, but not the only thing people should be mentioning in some of these comments as if that's what makes the game "bad".

And if you really think Starfield is going to be Fallout 4 with just a new coat of paint... That's just disingenuous. There's already more than enough changes in new mechanics and systems that didn't exist in FO4 aside from the entire new universe and premise that's more than simply a coat of paint.

I do hear what you're saying though and I appreciate acknowledging some of the parts people skip over thinking about just to hit the low hanging fruit that have been brought up in every thread about a Bethesda game since time immemorial, adding nothing new to the discussion.

Faydaikin, (edited )
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

That is all fair points.

In my personal opinion, I think what irks me the most is that all of Bethesdas missteps are fairly easily fixable. They just seem to refuse to do so for some reason.

A bit more focus on the overall writing would go a long way and wouldn’t have to interfere with the gameplay in the least for people who don’t care. It’s an intricate part of world-building for those that do enjoy it and serves to drive the player forward. Also helps the ‘suspension of disbelief’ and all that.

They don’t need to reach the heights of the old CRPG makers of the 90’s. Just make sure your “Antagonist” has a proper response when you put in an option to ask him Why he’s doing what he’s doing, you know? Stuff like that. As well as maybe not retconning the timeline of the universe just to fit an inconsequential quest-line and then recon it again in the next game… Stick to the established lore.

Secondly: Better implementation of a few new/borrowed features, like base building, that might fit the game. Instead of haphazardly throwing everything currently trending at the wall in the hope that some of it sticks. Take one thing and do it proper, otherwise just don’t do it at all.

Then there’s the Radiant-Quests in F4. This is just a poor excuse so as to not bother with making actual side-quests. There is a limit to how far they can execute their motto of “Keep it simple, stupid.” This is one of those limits.

There’s probably a couple of other things I’m forgetting. But I feel these little changes would help elevate Beth’ just a bit out of the meme-pit they’re currently in.

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

I agree with everything you said. Though that's certainly not everything, that's a lot of the major issues that hold Bethesda games back from their potential.

I am actually glad that with Starfield radiant quests have been expanded to dynamically place quests in different locations. I think that, if it's taken advantage of, will go a long way towards the potential criticism of "1,000 planets and nothing to do on most of them" that I see as a possible issue with their scope.

Bethesda continually evolves and changes their radiant system with each release, but from Skyrim to Fallout 4 we saw the felt effects of that system stagnate and become padding instead of adding dynamic experiences as its original intent.

And since I didn't specifically mention the bugs in my other comments, Ive played plenty of non-bethesda open world games with plenty of bugs long after release, I feel they're a part of the whole deal and I excuse most of them unless they truly cant be worked around (things like losing your companions or getting stuck on geometry if you're a console player). I cease to excuse those bugs as soon as the gameplay requires things of you that the bugs prevent, such as the game being too janky to support the strict save system of vanilla FO4's survival mode, which is inexcusable.

I also worry, though, about mods. Because of how many players use mods extensively in Bethesda games it becomes tricky to know which bugs are inherent, which are from poorly made mods, and which are from conflicting mods. It muddies the waters of really pinning down what's going on. Just something that contributes to the bugginess of those games in a way that isn't very calculable, unless you're unmodded on console.

But if anything remotely as problematic as the survival mode stability is a factor in Starfield, I'd be much much less willing to forgive some bugs here and there. We'll just have to see.

Faydaikin, (edited )
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

So we’re pretty much in agreement about the state of Bethesdas games. We just stand on opposite sides of the reaction to it.

As corny as it sounds, I wish most of the arguments I’ve been in, about games, could have been this civil. It’s a nice change of pace.

I don’t think I have more to add, as such.

Thanks for the talk, mate. You have a nice day.

DaSaw,

Their games have always been as wide as an ocean and shallow as a puddle. That’s what we like about them. Get out of my giant splashy pool!

LetMeEatCake,

Bethesda makes well liked games, yes. But they have a track record of their games coming out as complete buggy messes that need 6-12 months to be in a decent state.

Could be in this case that Microsoft has realized how important this game is to their console efforts and the delays have been an effort to avoid a repeat of Bethesda’s typical. I wouldn’t be too surprised. I’d recommend being wary until the game is out. Waiting won’t hurt anyone.

lorez,

No, they’re trying to fix a broken mess. I have this feeling. Dunno about you.

LetMeEatCake,

I wouldn’t be surprised by that at all either. Which is why I recommended waiting!

lorez,

Always! Also, the cake is a lie ʘ‿ʘ

Aesthesiaphilia,

Because - and this is the only real answer you'll get - Starfield is "cool" and "normies" are looking forward to it. Therefore, the "real gamers" must hate it, ESPECIALLY before actually playing it.

Same shit you see in any niche community. Buncha nerds hating on anything too big or popular.

snowbell,
@snowbell@beehaw.org avatar

Or just look at Bethesda’s track record the last two decades…

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

In the past two decades they delivered some of the most successful, beloved games of all time.

snowbell,
@snowbell@beehaw.org avatar

I don’t think this comment deserves the effort it would take me to properly respond to that.

https://beehaw.org/pictrs/image/6d61aeb1-e233-4c89-b247-27392b1bde6e.webp

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

No, you can measure it in things like sales and review scores. Sure, they also put out games like Fallout 76 and Wolfenstein: Young Blood, but two decades is enough to capture Skyrim and Fallout 3.

snowbell, (edited )
@snowbell@beehaw.org avatar

I really didn’t like Skyrim, Fallout 3, Oblivion, Fallout 4, or 76. Still playing Morrowind and New Vegas though. I could go on about why for a looooooooong time but really don’t care to. Suffice to say there are plenty of people (obviously) that are not happy with those games. I bought them all too so that would show up in sales data. Shame on me, I guess. I’ve been burned enough times that I’m not even going to bother being excited about this one.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

But there are also tons of people who've been plenty pleased with those games, as you can see on the long tails of their sales and how many concurrent players they retain to this day. You're the odd one out on those heavy hitters. Not so much on 76, and to a lesser extent, 4.

snowbell,
@snowbell@beehaw.org avatar

The context of this discussion is that the top post claimed that people only are shitting on starfield because “normies” like it so none of that is relevant. All I’m saying is that there are legitimate reasons to have low expectations. The people who like those games aren’t the same people complaining about Bethesda/Starfield, they are people like me who have been disillusioned with bethesda for years after a long series of disappointing releases. It is especially frustrating because we KNOW they can do better, because they have in the past. They just don’t. The amount of people who will end up loving Starfield has no bearing on my ability to enjoy the game.

With that said, I’d be plenty happy for this to end up being another Morrowind or New Vegas. Now I feel I’ve proved my point so I’m gonna go play some Morrowind. 😜

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

I just think you would have made your point better if you had said maybe one decade, because two decades catches some certified bangers in the public consciousness.

Sordid,
@Sordid@beehaw.org avatar

two decades is enough to capture Skyrim and Fallout 3.

So a decent but by no means amazing game and a complete turd? Not really helping your case here very much, IMO. The last truly great game Bethesda made was Morrowind, and I will die on this hill.

Dalek_Thal,
@Dalek_Thal@aussie.zone avatar

Successful and good are completely different and unrelated metrics. Fifty Shades of Grey was extremely successful, but no one in their right mind would ever call it good. Psychonauts was met with universal acclaim, and is widely considered to be one of the best games of all time, and yet it was a complete flop and needed more than a decade to get a sequel.

Bethesda games are extremely successful. They are not good games, and their success is not a good thing. Bethesda kicked off microtransactions in 2007 with Horse Armour. This decision completely fucked the wider industry. Not a fan.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

So...that's your personal taste. Fifty Shades of Grey wouldn't have been successful if no one liked it, and we can quantify some form of quality via review scores. Some of Bethesda's games have reviewed phenomenally well, especially in as large of a bucket as the past 20 years of their history. If I was the sole dictator of what was good, no one would be playing the latest Assassin's Creed game or Hades, but plenty of people love those games; the majority would say they're great, and we can measure that to some degree.

SugarApplePie, (edited )
@SugarApplePie@beehaw.org avatar

I’m sure that drives a good chunk of it, but it’s more likely that there are a lot of people that have had their fill of Bethesda games that all basically play the same, just in different settings, and those people tend to be in nerdier spots like this. Feels a little dorky to just blame it all on fun-hating nerds haha, what a coincidence that all the people that disagree with you are just mad losers!

Edit: Going back to this comment after Starfield came out and yeah, it’s about what I expected. Skyrim in space lol. Can totally understand why people are underwhelmed or annoyed.

Dalek_Thal,
@Dalek_Thal@aussie.zone avatar

Honestly mate? Not at all. I’m concerned about Starfield because of Bethesda’s track record since Fallout 4, and in particular, their constant attempts to introduce paid ‘mods’ to their games through the creation club (which are always overpriced for tiny amounts of content) as well as how broken their games have been at launch since Morrowind. When my PC, which can run Baldur’s Gate 3 on max settings, can’t run Oblivion without mods without regular crashes, then there’s a big problem.

I want Starfield to be good. But Bethesda do not make good games. They make broad games, but there’s no depth, and what is there is fairly consistently buggy. They have the Pokemon problem though, where people are willing to give them a pass because of the big name. I guarantee you, if a smaller developer released games in the state that Bethesda does, their games would be (rightfully) panned.

mp3,
@mp3@lemmy.ca avatar

I’m not hyped for the game but I’m still curious to play it down the road once the inevitable and glaring bugs from the launch are patched.

Sordid,
@Sordid@beehaw.org avatar

Experience. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, uh, you can’t get fooled again!

ILikeBoobies,

It hasn’t come out yet so there is nothing positive to say

Sibbo,

Very good point. Everything that we get now is marketing.

JuniperusVox,
@JuniperusVox@beehaw.org avatar

So how does that lead to so then there’s only negative things to say? It is, once again, not out yet. I’m starting to dislike being in any community around games, because everyone appears to just hate games. It’s exhausting.

fuzzywolf23,

Because we have memories long enough to remember literally every game Bethesda has released this millennium

DaSaw,

And yet you keep buying them?

Goddamn, stop doing that and get out of our fandom!

fuzzywolf23,

I own every game they’ve ever released, but the expectation they’ve built over the last 20 years is that their games spend a year being trash, at least

DaSaw,

Because fandom is basically a bunch of entitled brats with nothing better to do.

Boleano,

In addition to what others have said I also suspect that being a console exclusive has made some people be very critical of it. I’m not a big bethesda fan but what I have seen so far looks great and I’m looking forward to play it.

AlexWIWA, do gaming w Starfield has housing system, player jail, and more reveals Bethesda in new Q&A

I can’t bring myself to care after Fallout 4 being mid, and BG3 being amazing.

forgotaboutlaye,

I really enjoyed FO4. It didn't live up to Fo3 or NV for me, but I still had a blast playing through multiple times.

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

It's a different game. I go back and enjoy FNV still and FO4 as well because it scratches a different itch. The looting, crafting, settlement construction, etc. are executed much much better than FNV or 3, or otherwise are entirely new mechanics. It's a whole different thing, it's the studio pedigree and franchise the games belong to that allow these criticisms to continue on even when you're comparing games that are radically different beneath the surface.

TheOakTree,

You know, BG3 is a great experience overall, but I don’t think it’s a great gaming experience. I’ve experienced at least a handful of softlocks that forced me to rewind a decent amount of playtime… and I don’t really think I’m playing in a way that should break the game.

AlexWIWA,

I save scum because you are 100% correct.

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