This applies to the two streamers mentioned as well.
They are both grifters and scoundrels. Elmo is much worse of course, but it’s not exactly much of an achievement if one is better than the most corrupt and degenerate American oligarch.
I get the nostalgia for simpler times, but fighting games have benefited so much from the fact that they can now be patched and updated over the internet.
Marvel vs. Capcom 2 had 56 characters, but ~6 of them were so strong that they rendered the rest of the roster nearly unplayable in comparison. And this is one of the games that was most fondly remembered! For every hit like that there were a dozen more that were so much worse they were quickly abandoned and forgotten.
For all the backlash to season 2, Tekken 8 is arguably still in a better place than the vast majority of pre-online fighting games. People are mad because standards have gotten so much higher, now that games do get patched we expect those patches to be better.
I’m quickly arriving at the desire to at least have these games lock in at the end of a season. They typically don’t make big changes during a season anyway. For as much as people were tired of buying Super, Ultra, Arcade, and Revelator releases of a game they already have, surely in the DLC era we can just treat them as expansion packs and still go back and play the old versions if we want to. However, due to skins and such, there’s an incentive for them to not keep the old version around. I really liked Guilty Gear Strive season 1 and didn’t care much for season 2. I would have loved to keep playing season 1 instead at the time, but it was gone. A lot of Dragon Ball FighterZ fans are mourning the game that they loved that isn’t accessible anymore.
Edition Select like in USF4 would be rad. But I think I'd just like to see a universal way for platforms to let you roll back to any version of any game. Wouldn't even require any extra work on developers' part, platform holders would just maintain an archive of patches.
Supporting it can be extra work; hosting the old versions costs the platform holder more money. It’s not automatic, but I really want them to figure it out. USF4 definitely required a ton of work for their edition select, but what I’m asking for is much closer to the boot menu of StarCraft/Brood War rather than picking the exact balance patch from a list of dozens, lol.
Don't know about other platforms, but it's worth noting that Steam already does keep old versions and there's some command line method that can force download an older depot. Valve could offer UI to officially support this.
Something that you may not be considering is that a big part of live service updates is stopping cheaters. Whether the game is balanced or not doesn't matter at all if other players are flying through the map and insta-killing everybody else.
Allowing the use of old versions of your game will consequentially allow cheaters to continue having access to known, exploitable files. Even if those files are no longer in use in the "live" version of the game, giving cheaters a sandbox to experiment in inevitably allows for further exploits to be discovered in the live version.
Normally games shouldn't allow players on different versions to connect to each other. Version checks may be something devs need to explicitly implement, but surely most games should already have them or else I have questions for the developers.
Also, in the context of fighting games specifically, this is largely a nonissue. Fighting game netcode works by sending button inputs only, and the other client will play back those inputs to independently verify the outcome. There's very little cheaters can try to do that won't just result in a desync. To my knowledge there's only ever been one cheating scandal in the FGC, and the accused turned out to be innocent in the end.
Hmm… I don't see how that hurts, yes. Problem with fighting games is you cannot release new characters without balance patches otherwise you break the game for half your roster if not more. And people absolutely want new characters.
But locking games at specific points maybe is worth exploring, yes.
It's not like I'm saying I hate classic fighters, or that there aren't any I still enjoy today. I've got plenty of hours on FightCade just dicking around in various random kusoge. I'm traveling to Combo Breaker in two weeks, and I signed up for six different brackets, two of which are retro titles (Waku Waku 7 and Twinkle Star Sprites) (you could also count Mystery Bracket, but the point of Mystery is to play trash that doesn't hold up).
But the games that have stood the test of time are few and far between. They're the exception, not the rule. If you think your game is too good for patches because it worked for Vampire Savior, you're a lot more likely to end up like SVC Chaos.
From a developer's perspective, they have to adapt to a changing market. All your competitors are iterating and improving their games, you need to keep up.
And hell, some of the most popular classics are patches in a sense. People play Super Turbo and Third Strike, but no one's playing World Warrior or New Generation. At least now players don't have to buy those kinds of 'patches' for full price.
A game can be fun in spite of balance. MvC2 is a beloved game even with its six character meta. But when there's room for improvement, and the internet now makes improvement possible, devs should take the opportunity to improve as much as they can.
Also, speaking of Tekken 5 - are you talking about the initial arcade release, the rebalanced console port, the "5.1" arcade rerelease, or Dark Resurrection? Because those totally count as patches.
That's the thing, there really was never a better time for fighting games 😂 I know it sounds preposterous, but back then if your main was in a re-release, you had to buy the whole game again to play, now you can just pay for a character DLC, or a season pass, and both are significantly cheaper.
Balance changes can be an issue, I agree, but in terms of how much the average player needs to spend on a game, things have improved.
There has been one constantly updated game that I loved, I think because it wasn’t actually live service.
Dead Cells! They were always putting out balance passes but also included a new weapon occasionally, then would release a true DLC that added new levels, new enemies and new weapons. Would spend some time balancing that drop and eventually release a new one.
I miss games like that, I’m happy to buy an expansion of a game I love, not going to buy a new battlepass or skins or whatever though.
This is exactly what fighting games do though. A season is an expansion (new characters) and there typically is a balance patch after a new character drops, then they move on to a new season.
IDK what people who don't play fighting games think a season is, but judging by some comments in this thread, not every one seems to know.
As I typed that I kinda forgot this post was about a Fighting game. I was speaking more generally about GaaS. It’s good fighters still have something akin to old school DLC!
I would normally agree with you. But a fighting game is completely about the balance. You’re assuming the team under crunch, aiming for a financially-beneficial release date magically got it 100% right the first time, under pressure. In reality, they’re responsible for balance. They got it wrong, but it sounds like they’ll fix it.
Game seasons are not really the same thing as live service games though.
I’m really not into Tekken but there are games I play that have setup. Of course probably the most famous of all been Foxhole.
Anyway the point is that without “seasons” (simply called that because it harkens back to TV not because there are necessarily four in a year) there isn’t really any natural conclusion to the game, so you have short tournaments and people rank up within those tournaments, but obviously you don’t want the tournaments to go on for too long because otherwise there’s no way in for new players as they’ll start way down the rankings and not be able to compete. The solution for this is to reset everything every season, but then you’ve got the problem that people learn the meta and are able to rank up to high ranks almost immediately, whereas newer players don’t stand a chance so you haven’t really fixed the problem, the solution to that is to change the meta every season. That way everyone has an equal chance of working it out for themselves and ranking up.
I’m pretty sure they even did this with OverWatch back in the day.
Yeah, this is not applicable to fighting games, not in the past, not now.
In the past: they didn't do live updates because the technology didn't allow it, but they re-released the same game 100 times (See how many versions of Street Fighter 2 exist as an example)
Now: we get one version + balance patches and DLCs, and decent publishers do repackages after every season to make sure the price of the base game + DLC doesn't exceed the initial price mark: typically $60.
Game balance is so easy, you fonit once and then it’s perfect forever. No new characters, just buy a new game, just like in the street fighter 2 days. What a braindead take.
In this context, Tekken and other fighting games have competitive and content seasons. Where over a year winners from large international events earn places in a final, and new characters/stages are released
After the final there is normally a very large update to the game which comes with new game mechanics and large balance changes, and the start of a content season pass. With enough time before the first tournament kicks off(street fighter is being weird this year though)
For Tekken that season patch dropped recently but was a massive let down(fuck up) and the community wasn’t happy with it at all.
Pretty much for as long as online games have gotten updates. DOTA kinda codified it with the Battle Pass system but WoW battlegrounds/arena had seasons way before that. They’ll wait and do content/balance updates in chunks and that effects the meta in waves defined as “seasons”.
It’s everywhere now. It can be weaponized FOMO or a clean way to provide regular novelty without being tied down to legacy content.
And that’s why Stop Killing Games is getting big, and it’s also why every gaming company lobbied against it, making it even more important to sign.
If we’re gonna pay 80 dollars for a product, we better be fucking able to keep it. It literally makes no sense to allow this kind of shit for videogames but not for anything else. If a car company said “If we stop supplying parts to this old car, you must crush it” they’d be laughed out of the room.
I’m one step ahead of them. I’m not installing them in the first place. The utter gall of them removing The Crew permanently, and then saying ‘But hey, it’s ok, you can buy The Crew 2 instead’. Fuck off .
If you search “EULA deleting all copies of any materials or software in your possession” you’ll see this shows up in pretty much every EULA for every piece of software, including most games. Phasmophobia, Baldur’s Gate 3, Risk of Rain 2, and Steam itself show up on that list.
Lies. Steam themselves say they’ll make efforts if they can to make games playable, as far as they can influence steam services at that point. They EXPLICITLY say you can keep any game you’ve already downloaded.
You become a subscriber of Steam (“Subscriber”) by completing the registration of a Steam user account.
TERM AND TERMINATION
A. Term
The term of this Agreement (the “Term”) commences on the date you first indicate your acceptance of these terms, and will continue in effect until otherwise terminated in accordance with this Agreement.
B. Termination by You
You may cancel your Account at any time. You may cease use of a Subscription at any time or, if you choose, you may request that Valve terminate your access to a Subscription. However, Subscriptions are not transferable, and even if your access to a Subscription for a particular game or application is terminated, the original activation key will not be able to be registered to any other account, even if the Subscription was obtained in a retail store. Access to Subscriptions ordered as a part of a pack or bundle cannot be terminated individually, termination of access to one game within the bundle will result in termination of access to all games ordered in the pack. Your cancellation of an Account, or your cessation of use of any Subscription or request that access to a Subscription be terminated, will not entitle you to any refund, including of any Subscription fees. Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your Account or termination of your access to a particular Subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation.
C. Termination by Valve
Valve may restrict or cancel your Account or any particular Subscription(s) at any time in the event that (a) Valve ceases providing such Subscriptions to similarly situated Subscribers generally, or (b) you breach any terms of this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use). In the event that your Account or a particular Subscription is restricted or terminated or cancelled by Valve for a violation of this Agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including of any Subscription fees or of any unused funds in your Steam Wallet, will be granted.
Every time Valve has brought it up before, it’s been in interviews where they have mentioned they have contingency plans to make your library available somehow if they ever have to close up shop. Though, originally Steam had a way of creating physical backups in the program itself. If it still does, it’s been moved somewhere in the UI I don’t know about. But you may not need it anyway, because back then games were stored in their own proprietary containers (GFC files). These days, it’s the same structure as any other installation and you can often just copy that to something and not even need cracks for it to run.
I get that they say this in interviews, but that is not what their user agreement says. They can remove games from your library and revoke access to your account. To my knowledge, they’ve never abused this power but it’s still in their agreement. My point is nearly every company has agreements like Ubisoft has. There’s no reason to single out theirs.
What’s attempted to be singled out isn’t the “we can terminate your access at any time.” They are claiming that Ubisoft’s suggests you need to destroy the copies you already have if they stop supporting it.
Though it doesn’t even look like that is actually the case looking at the very clause the article is quoting. It’s the standard “we can revoke your ability to download this thing at any time” shit. Where the fuck does it suggest users have to destroy their copies?
Upon termination all licenses granted to you in this Pact shall immediately terminate and you must immediately and permanently remove the Game from your device and destroy all copies of the Game in your possession.
10.2.3 you must immediately delete or remove the Game from all computer equipment in your possession and immediately destroy or return to us (at our option) all copies of the Game then in your possession, custody or control and, in the case of destruction, certify to us that you have done so.
So why Ubisoft? It’s common in lots of games. Do people want to change EULAs in general or just want to hate on Ubisoft for doing something that’s common?
Ubisoft is generally shit all around so maybe it’s just bias. Or maybe they do have such a clause in something, they just didn’t quote the actual relevant bits in this article.
It’s pretty common to say “hey we can turn this off at any time and you will not be entitled to a refund and won’t be able to access anything via our online services” but this “hey if we decide to shut down the online services, you need to delete everything related to it you have on your device too” is new. And even more consumer hostile.
If Larian goes belly up, they can suck my left nut if they think I am gonna delete BG3 off my hard-drive.
Upon termination for any reason, You must immediately uninstall the Product and destroy all copies of the Product in Your possession.
Even though this clause seems to be in most EULA I’ve never heard of it actually being enforced. I’m guessing it’s to prevent some kind of loophole where you can agree to an EULA, install a game, and then terminate your agreement in order to use the game without needing to follow any rules. If you can terminate the agreement at any time without needing to delete the game, then why not always do that?
You probably could. Buy game, download game, make backup of game, refund game, maybe crack the game you now have backed up, play game basically for free. But it’s just piracy with extra steps. And if you do it enough, they probably will ban your account from even making purchases.
As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers or purchase certain Hardware (as defined below) on Steam. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, software associated with Hardware and any virtual items you trade, sell or purchase in a Steam Subscription Marketplace are referred to in this Agreement as “Content and Services;” the rights to access and/or use any Content and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as “Subscriptions.”
It’s in the quoted text: “Including third-party games”. I’ll bold it.
B. Hardware, Subscriptions; Content and Services
As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers or purchase certain Hardware (as defined below) on Steam. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, software associated with Hardware and any virtual items you trade, sell or purchase in a Steam Subscription Marketplace are referred to in this Agreement as “Content and Services;” the rights to access and/or use any Content and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as “Subscriptions.”
One great benefit of the stop killing games initiative is the spotlight being put onto EULA’s. we all knew this is the wild shit EULA’s tried to dictate for years now, but now we have media actually reporting on it. even if SKG goes nowhere, at least we’ve had a revival of this massive consumer issue.
I feel we are gonna need to reach at least that 1.4M with all the companies being against it and actively lobbying. I bet they they are gonna be extremely nitpicky with the signatures to invalidate as many as possible.
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