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explodes, do games w Cities: Skylines 2 "absolutely cannot" have the decade of DLC features that the original game added | GamesRadar+

My take is that they’re trying to sell the game to people who haven’t already purchased CS:1, or who haven’t purchased any DLCs from CS:1. If you’ve already purchased DLC’s, you’ve already served your purpose to the company.

militaryintelligence,

Nonsense, I have not even begun to consume

Khrounose,

Seems counter intuitive. If that was the case then the true would be of all the Sims games. I bet the majority of buyers will be from CS:1. The market audience is only so big.

Tb0n3, do games w Cities: Skylines 2 "absolutely cannot" have the decade of DLC features that the original game added | GamesRadar+

And then you’ve got absolute mad men like Concerned Ape making stardew valley 10 times better with free updates for years and years. Showing these money hungry companies how it’s done.

GreenMario,

At the expense of: No Stardew Valley 2.

Tb0n3,

Honestly, why would we need a Stardew Valley 2? There’s so many harvest moon games but are they really anything more than small iterations? Not to mention those have been garbage since the IP was basically stolen from the original developers.

Noodle07,

Fun fact, we basically had stellaris 2 for free

Car,

I feel like Stellaris is a measurably different game than release. I bought the game on steam like 10 years ago and while it looks largely the same, the mechanics have seemingly had complete makeovers or renovations every few years. As far as I can tell most of the modified mechanics have been introduced to the base game as well, so those without DLC aren’t completely left out.

The game used to be some weird rock-paper-scissors game of either wormholes, gateways, and jump drives with corvette death columns. There was an optimal way to play and everything else was a handicap

Goodtoknow,
@Goodtoknow@lemmy.ca avatar

He’s working on the haunted chocolatier while isn’t a sequel looks like a great spiritual successor

GreenMario,

Oh nice

PhlubbaDubba,

Not Stardew Valley 2 but CA is making a new game about a chocolateer who has ghost friends

echo64,

The scale is just a little bit different here, isn’t it. One guy (maybe a few more) and an indie sensation that makes a ridiculous amount of sales vs. a company that needs to pay wages for 30 people.

We can have a discussion here, but comparing standard run rates vs. a massive exception isn’t a great starting point.

captainlezbian,

Yeah it’s also one guy who got so rich off it he never has to work again if he doesn’t want to. Haunted Chocolatier isn’t because concerned ape is a game dev now and needs money, it’s concerned ape wants to make a new game. He clearly loves stardew valley and that’s part of why he keeps updating it.

Terraria is a better exception to use but still an exception. I’m not asking for every game to give free unplanned massive expansions, though I will continue praising those who do such things and absolutely add them to my list of “buy their next game if I’m remotely interested”.

What I want is games that feel like they’re trying to give everyone a fair deal. A base game that’s good on its own and doesn’t feel like a downgrade from the previous game. A few expansions that are good, reasonably priced, and make the game further into its best version of that iteration of the series. And a reasonable number of non expansion dlc that add something and ideally don’t leave me trying to decide what ones I want to get. And by the end of life the game can be not quite the cheapest but full, good, and complete. That way when the next iteration of the series is dropped I’m not left thinking it was because they just wanted to sell me the same things over again. Civilization does this excellently.

hiddengoat,

Yes, companies with 30 employees are, in fact, money hungry because that's how the employees fucking eat. One person's recurring costs are nowhere near the recurring costs of dozens of people. WEIRD HOW MATH.

Stardew Valley, Undertale, Braid, all of these one-man (mostly) shows generated enough revenue to effectively retire their creators overnight but if they had to pay 30 motherfuckers with the proceeds... yeah, not so much.

TSG_Asmodeus,

I’ve worked for those (sized) companies and employee pay is not as much as you’d think. Not to mention higher sales don’t equal more pay (for the actual workers.)

Source: just shy of 20 years in gaming.

hiddengoat,

None of that has anything to do with my post.

Wahots, do games w Cities: Skylines 2 "absolutely cannot" have the decade of DLC features that the original game added | GamesRadar+

As much as I like C:S, the thought of getting a relatively barebones game with $200 in DLC over the next 5-7 years to make the city feel complete makes me feel depressed.

That was the bummer in the original game. Only two ways to deal with trash, unless you bought $30 of DLC. I’ll be waiting to see if the game is good or not, or if they totally gimped certain parts of the game like bridges, ports and transit to resell back as a la carte DLC.

echodot,

I don’t understand this attitude that the new game needs to include the DLC of the old one that’s never been a thing in games. New versions of an old game never previously included the DLC for the old game apart from anything else because it wouldn’t make sense because they’ve changed so many systems.

eluvatar,

I think the difference now is that DLC adds features, and so people are upset when the new game is missing features from the old DLC. Where in the past, say with Oblivion or Skyrim, it was just more story, maybe some new skills, in one case there was a new feature (house building) and their newer games do include that feature. But people don’t expect the story line from the DLC in the new game.

Features in DLC feel different these days. In the past DLC had a more limited scope, and you looked forward to the new game for new features. But now if the new game comes out with less features it can be a bummer for people used to the old game. There isn’t really a great solution because I don’t think it always makes sense to add all the DLC features in the new game.

Paradox, do games w Cities: Skylines 2 "absolutely cannot" have the decade of DLC features that the original game added | GamesRadar+
@Paradox@lemdro.id avatar

From what I’ve seen the road building is far better and basically incorporates all the “retired” mods

I’m sad that zoning is still essentially the same as how SimCity did it in 1989, as I really want mixed use, but that’s a minor quibble

lud,

Cities skylines 2 has mixed used, or at least the mini trailers and dev diaries says so

Paradox,
@Paradox@lemdro.id avatar

All the people I’ve seen playing it don’t seem to show any specific way to do mixed use, so if it does exist it’s probably just a thing that happens automatically on high density housing units

echodot,

It’s literally an option in the zoning tool so I don’t know what videos you’ve been watching

Trebach,

It gets unlocked later and the embargoes were staggered so they couldn't show certain milestones in the game. The newer videos will have it now, so look at those to see everything, including how their computers are chugging even with brand new hardware on high settings.

yote_zip, do games w Cities: Skylines 2 "absolutely cannot" have the decade of DLC features that the original game added | GamesRadar+
@yote_zip@pawb.social avatar

This is a trend that I have recently started noticing. PAYDAY 3 came out with basically nothing included after PAYDAY 2 had literally 10 years of continuous content/80 DLCs pumped into it. As another example, The Sims always comes out with a new release that has every feature removed so they can sell you all the same DLC again and again.

In some cases this would appear to be a (corporate) success, but it seems it’s actually been part of the downfall of recently-released PAYDAY 3. As of this moment in time, the rolling 24-hour peak of player count in PAYDAY 3 is 4,699. The rolling 24-hour peak of PAYDAY 2 is 37,399. Why would players who have a fully finished game with all DLC already available want to play your new barren game?

dinckelman,

I feel really bad for the people working on these games. PAYDAY 3 will eventually reach success in a niche, but will likely be hated by those same people.

The objective behind a game like this, or Sims, or FIFA/FC, is not to create a great gameplay experience. Sadly, they make a passable game, that will help them leech money sustainably for a considerable amount of time, through endless DLC. Paradox will inevitably make Colossal Order do the same with C:S2, despite them claiming that it’ll be fewer but larger DLC.

There are very few studios I will refuse to show respect for, and the one behind PAYDAY is one of them. Just like what remains of Maxis

captainlezbian,

Yeah for an example of a series that has found a reasonable equilibrium there companies should be looking at Civ. By making every game significantly enough different moving to the next doesn’t feel like 20 downgrades to get a slight upgrade, but more like 5 has reached the conclusion of what it will ever be, 6 is now new and will have 2 major expansions and a variety of minor ones, but you only see a bit of how it’s incomplete until years later when you’re reminded that some feature came in rise and fall and you’ve just taken it for granted for several years.

Sacha,

I think there ie a middle ground as a rule but a lot of games use dlc as an excuse to sell the game for more.

Sims is a great example. It costs over $1k to buy everything for Sims 4 and the Sims 4 stans will defend it going “you’re not SUPPOSED to guy every pack”. Sims 3 vs Sims 4 is something as well. Sims 3 didn’t get as much dlc, but each one had so much more content and gameplay than Sims 4. 9 years and like 50 packs later, Sims 3 STILL has more content overall. The game was just poorly optimized and badly coded and is only now becoming playable in terms of load times and lag. A lot of the Sims 4 packs don’t even work that well together, or the opposite where they release a feature and you need another pack to fully utilize it. (The goats and sheep in the horses dlc don’t do anything without cottage living. And they already didn’t do much WITH it)

The Weather expansion with Sims 2 made sense at the time. Weather was a mechanic that not many games had and quite the milestone, it was groundbreaking for the time. Weather dlc for Sims 3 you could begrudgingly forgive, since it’s such a big thing and the base for Sims 3 was so big. But Weather being sold as an add on for Sims 4 was just unacceptable. The game was barren, weather is a base feature for every single game within that kind of genre. It feels like they remove the feature to sell it later. And you see this with the pets packs too. Sims 3 you had cats, dogs, horses, and small animals. With Sims 4 you have cats and dogs, my first pets stuff, cottage living (for the small animals, it does FINALLY add SOMETHING new with the cows/lamas and chickens), and horse ranch- for the same experience Sims 3 pets gave - and even THEN there is less gameplay and features. No unicorns, no wild horses, no pet jobs (I think) since you can’t control them, no nothing. Sims 4 still doesn’t have fairies somehow but there’s rumbles that they might be the next occult and they could bring unicorns but… you won’t be able to do anything with the unicorns without horse ranch.

So, it’s not even than Sims 4 costs more than 3, you are getting an objectively worse and more barren experience even when you do buy everything. The dlc for Sims 3 made sense and added so much, barring maybe the weather one as an arguable one. Almost none of the dlc in Sims 4 makes sense to be sold to the player instead of in the base game. City living, island living, cottage living, the vacation one… for that’s about it really. But becausethey are supposed to bring new content and gamellay experiences. But the dlc for Sims 4 was just such an obvious money cash cow that they are like “what pieces of the same dlc can we upsell as separate packs?” They barely add anything new.

I have no problem with dlc like how it is with Witcher 3 was with new stories, gameplay experiences, quests, etc, rather than selling base features of a game for morr.

kayrae_42,

I’ve been playing Sims since 2006. Sims 4 feels like an insult. I want to like it, and aesthetically it is pleasing, the build tools are nice. But game play wise I need so many mods to make it enjoyable. The packs don’t really integrate with each other and the relationships feel very shallow in vanilla experience. I have Sims 3 and Sims 2 and I love both of them, I used mods but I also it was a fun vanilla experience. I never felt robbed when I bought dlc for them, but at this point with sims 4 unless the dlc is on sale I will not buy it at all. Every sims 4 thing I have bought except base game has been sale. It didn’t even release with pools or toddlers.

I am interested in Life By You from paradox games just to see something different in the genre, it helps that Rob Humble is on the development team. I also keep an eye on Paralives to see how that grows. I just want something new in the life sim genre.

dinckelman,

If not for mods, I would not play 4 at all. It’s just bland. It has no soul. And don’t get me started on how broken the few recent expansions were. Not just “egh, an occasional bug that would prompt a restart”, straight up irreparable damage to your save, and broken features that are still not fixed

hiddengoat,

Yeah, and Payday 2 had basically nothing at launch compared to Payday and people bitched about the lack of content after only two years.

vagrantprodigy,

CK3 was the last straw for me. It’s been years, and the DLC released is both expensive and lacking in the mechanics of CK2.

De_Narm,

What trend? You basically just explained it yourself. 10 years of updates and 80 DLCs. In order to match this with their new game, they would have to stop supporting Payday 2 and sink 10+ years into Payday 3 before releasing it. That’s simply not possible. So it’s either a new game with less content or no new game at all for these types of games with lots of support.

yote_zip,
@yote_zip@pawb.social avatar

The trend would be developers that are unwilling or unable to release a new game that is better than the old one (especially in formulaic series like a racing game), or that they intentionally withhold features in order to resell them again. I’m not saying there aren’t sometimes good reasons for it, just that it’s something I’ve personally noticed happening now that developers are leaning harder and harder into DLC, and now that games are stagnating in innovation and reasons to buy the next entry in the series.

Also for PAYDAY 3 specifically if you don’t have any familiarity with Overkill/Starbreeze I wouldn’t defend them on this one. They have chosen money over their players every single chance they could get, including breaking their promise to never include microtransactions in the game, and then breaking their promise in 2017 that they wouldn’t release any more paid DLC. In 2017 they released the Ultimate Edition with this promise, and in 2019 they went back on it. In 2019, they started releasing DLC again with the mission statement of “hey any money you put into this DLC will help fund PAYDAY 3 development”. The community immediately noticed that the DLC from 2019 onwards was of lower quality and more expensive, and although people frequently brought this up, others would defend it and say “yes, but we need to support Overkill or PAYDAY 3 won’t be made.”

They started development on PAYDAY 3 in 2016, so they’ve had 7 years to develop it before it released, whereas PAYDAY 2 has been out for 10 years at this point. The moral of the story is they kept releasing mediocre DLC for PAYDAY 2 because it was easy and lucrative, and it became such an addiction that they neglected PAYDAY 3’s development to the point where it released with barely any features or content even after 7 years of development.

Psythik, do games w Cities: Skylines 2 "absolutely cannot" have the decade of DLC features that the original game added | GamesRadar+

Why not? The constant updates are what kept me playing for so many years!

InterSynth,
@InterSynth@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I think the developer meant they can’t have a decade of C:S DLC included in vanilla C:S2.

jpeps,

100%, the comments have been infuriating to read. This is the obvious interpretation.

PhlubbaDubba, do games w Cities: Skylines 2 "absolutely cannot" have the decade of DLC features that the original game added | GamesRadar+

I’m planning to try and build an offset hex grid city

Basically there’s one hex pattern for car traffic, and an offset hex pattern that’s for pedestrians and cyclists, and where there’s any intersections between the two, the car traffic gets raised to give pedestrian traffic an underpass.

Also every car intersection is a roundabout, and I’m considering doing alternating one way lanes with every pair being bracketed by transit only lanes.

sirfancy,

That sounds like an absolute nightmare to realistically navigate but I would love to see it.

PhlubbaDubba,

Way I see it the addresses would be kinda like how NYC is organized, one parallel has roads, one has lanes, one has boulevards, and then on the pedestrian side you have street, alley, and row.

Doesn’t just save number space, it’ll also give you an idea of the best way to get to that address since street/alley/and row addresses won’t have curbside parking, because pedestrian route.

Mango,

Lolz, send me a link when you’ve released your first video!

There’s no way you can do all that meticulous work without also having the patience to make a video about it. 😉

DarkThoughts, do games w Cities: Skylines 2 "absolutely cannot" have the decade of DLC features that the original game added | GamesRadar+

Or playable framerates.

SkepticalButOpenMinded, do games w The Plucky Squire devs explain how challenging the wild 2D to 3D gameplay was to pull off: "Can we do this? Is this even possible?"

This is visually very cool and I like the gimmick.

lazycouchpotato,
@lazycouchpotato@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah I love the visuals. The 3D parts remind me quite a bit of Supraland.

Supervisor194, do games w The Plucky Squire devs explain how challenging the wild 2D to 3D gameplay was to pull off: "Can we do this? Is this even possible?"
@Supervisor194@lemmy.world avatar

This looks like a great game, but “can we do this? Is this even possible?” I mean Super Paper Mario did it in 2007.

lazycouchpotato,
@lazycouchpotato@lemmy.world avatar

Crush 3D is also a game I remember doing this.

youtu.be/lyym2v2Ktb4

Secret300, do games w The Plucky Squire devs explain how challenging the wild 2D to 3D gameplay was to pull off: "Can we do this? Is this even possible?"

The game looks pretty cool

mrbubblesort, do games w The Plucky Squire devs explain how challenging the wild 2D to 3D gameplay was to pull off: "Can we do this? Is this even possible?"
@mrbubblesort@kbin.social avatar

Whoa, first time hearing about this, but it looks awesome!

nadram, do games w The Plucky Squire devs explain how challenging the wild 2D to 3D gameplay was to pull off: "Can we do this? Is this even possible?"
@nadram@lemmy.world avatar

I can’t wait to play it t🤩

wowpara,
@wowpara@mastodon.social avatar

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schmidtster, do games w The Plucky Squire devs explain how challenging the wild 2D to 3D gameplay was to pull off: "Can we do this? Is this even possible?"

Reminds me quite a bit of evoland, loved the concept of “evolving” through the different graphic eras.

TheAlbatross, do games w Starfield's lead quest designer leaves Bethesda to join other RPG veterans making a new open-world game

After playing Starfield, I, uh, wouldn’t be chomping at the bit to hire their lead quest designer.

Phanatik,

Don't work at Bethesda. Not going to claim this is in anyway accurate. Maybe the reason they left was because they weren't allowed to design interesting quests and thus were tired of being railroaded. I say this because any quest designer is essentially a storyteller so for quests to be so bland to lack character has to be intentional.

Fredselfish,
@Fredselfish@lemmy.world avatar

Is the story lacking?

BigBananaDealer,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

i personally find the main quest to be bethesdas best. lots of great quests i just played one a few days ago that left me speechless

PoopMonster,

Agreed and much like skyrim this game is better enjoyed with minimal fast traveling, the problem is that fast travel is just too convenient and people will complain that it’s just talking and loading screens without actually enjoying the exploration.

baropithecus,

I’m intrigued, how the hell do you explore in this game? I thought the only way to get from system to system and planet to planet is to click through menus. The only choice seems to be whether I’ll go back to the ship and click through menus or stay where I am and click through menus.

Goronmon,

Within a system you can bring up the "scanner tool" view in the ship to then point yourself to a planet and travel that way.

But to to travel to various systems, yes you'll need to use a menu. But then I'm not sure how you would expect to fly between systems without some form of menu to select where you want to go.

Epicmulch,

You could try walking around a planet instead of fast traveling.

PoopMonster,

Use the scanner tool, I find I have the opposite experience most people have while exploring. Many people say there’s nothing to do, I hate it when I pick a random ass moon in some god forsaken system and keep fining structures littered all over the damn place. I just wanna be the first person on this planet and find animals and shit, yet there’s always a solar farm, mining rig or small lab in the middle of fucking nowhere.

BigBananaDealer,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

when i first played skyrim i fast travelled everywhere. then years later i did a no fast travel playthrough and wow, the sheer amount of quests i had never seen before was astounding

Epicmulch,

That’s what I’m saying. Almost all of the main quests are some of Bethesdas best ever. I really don’t get all the hate for this game. It’s not perfect by any means but to say it’s garbage is just wrong. I’m pretty new to Lemmy and I can’t help but compare it to what I see back over at reddit. More hive mind bull. The Internet told me I need to hate this thing so I hate it.

BigBananaDealer,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

yep exactly, everything about bethesda has been shit on ever since fo4 release, and 76 made it much worse. its like nobody actually enjoys gaming anymore, its just a side picking insult throwing cult

distantsounds, (edited )

Yes, it is a lifeless game in its current state. The framework is there, but everything has the feel of a shopping mall that’s going to be torn down in couple months EDIT: a screenshot of New Atlantis

Chet_Awesomelad,
@Chet_Awesomelad@kbin.social avatar

The writing is the strongest part of the game in my opinion. But the writing almost NEVER translates to interesting gameplay.

As an example, there's a quest where you're tasked with tracking some bad guys through a labyrinthine canyon, then you need to search for clues to find out where they came from, who hired them, etc. The gameplay for the quest is about the least imaginative way to interpret that story - the tracking is just following waypoint markers on your screen; the combat is just shooting four basic enemies; and finally the "search for clues" is just looting one item from the enemy leader's corpse. Then you fast travel back to the quest giver and get some credits as a reward.

Nearly every quest is like this. They present an interesting story via the dialogue, but then the actual gameplay for the quest is always just travel to a location, shoot some bad guys and/or pick up an item and/or talk to a person, then fast travel back and get some credits.

echo64,

maybe, but also they were a /lead/ so should have had some level of agency there.

rockerface,

in an ideal world, maybe

echo64,

I’m more trying to be realistic, It’s difficult to imagine how you would hire a lead anything and not give them any agency into what they are doing. That’s the whole point of lead, to lead the others in the goal of whatever that thing is.

I think that you can be marginalised and restricted, but it’s pretty unlikely this person, as a lead, had no agency about quest design

That also does not mean that they couldn’t do something better elsewhere. Just that assuming that they were locked down by bethesda into writing boring one note quests seems… like a reach.

Fredselfish,
@Fredselfish@lemmy.world avatar

Haven’t played yet is the game not good.

Wogi,

It’s fallout 4 with a different texture painted over the top, with all the charm removed and replaced with loading screens.

Fredselfish,
@Fredselfish@lemmy.world avatar

Yikes I couldn’t even finish Fallout 4 it was so bad.

Marsupial,
@Marsupial@quokk.au avatar

Eh 4 was fine.

3 was the worst, they turned such a great series into a mediocre and janky FPS.

Haui,
@Haui@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

NV got me in an aggro loop and kept me from finishing the game. Worst experience yet.

AFallingAnvil,
@AFallingAnvil@lemmy.ca avatar

It’s a firm 7/10 without mods. It’s a great framework but it lacks content past a certain point

TheAlbatross, (edited )

The game is fine. It’s on Gamepass so I’d play it through that, I wouldn’t pay the full retail for it.

Mostly I was referencing that the quests are fairly flat and uninspiring.

For what it’s worth, game quality-wise, I finished one playthrough in about 80 hrs and while there’s a NG+ mechanic that many seem to be enjoying, I wasn’t too interested in that. I really liked the ship building mechanic, and I had a lotta fun leveling up to see all the new ship parts and play with em.

Maybe after the modding scene develops more (though it looks like it’ll get there) I’ll come back to it if it’s still on Gamepass

dan1101, (edited )

It’s atmospheric and good, but player choice during many missions is lacking. Choices often boil down to “Yes” or “Not yet.” But you’ll go the way the mission wants you to go or you won’t finish it.

GreenMario,

UC Secdef: choose to remain undercover or go double agent and side with pirates

UC Vanguard: choose how to handle not just Terrormorphs but what to do about [Subject REDACTED]

Ryujin: I think there’s three possible outcomes there.

There’s also a few side quests that can go either way, like the beer run mission. There’s quite a lot more choice and consequences for a Bethesda RPG.

droans,

You also have options that change depending on your skills and progress.

You can choose to bribe, persuade, manipulate, flex your muscles, or do them a favor. Sometimes you can choose to kill them if they’re not cooperating. If a task is related to one of your skills, you can show off your knowledge.

The whole no choice paradigm was much more true for FO4 than for Starfield.

GreenMario,

I really like it. These people are hating because it’s memey to hate Bethesda.

Phanatik,

Yep, no legitimate criticism to be found. None whatsoever. Just wait for mods, they'll fix a game for free. The multi-million dollar studio did nothing wrong.

mnemonicmonkeys,

There is legitimate criticism, but there’s a lot of complete shit. I’ve heard people complain about procedurally generated planets that you have to go out of your way to interact with. There’s complaints of bullet sponge enemies from people who insisted on going to level 40 areas at level 20. Both of those complaints are bullshit

sirfancy,

"Why do planets have borders, I want to circumnavigate Mars"

  • Statement spoke by the utterly deranged
mnemonicmonkeys, (edited )

Agreed. I often spend 30-60 min in an area trying to find an ideal outpost location. The limuts on how far you can go on planets are already huge. From what I recall, the total area is comparable to Skyrim, though I’ll have to double check that

Edit: Yeah, literally every individual explorable area in the game is larger than the entire map of Skyrim or Fallout 4. Source: thenerdstash.com/how-big-starfield-is-open-world-…

Renacles,

It’s really good but the Bethesda hate train is still going strong. It’s definitely not for everyone though, it’s not a space sim by any means.

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