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FiniteBanjo, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

The other day I saw a Developer that was sad people don’t like the new Fable commercial. I was interested so I watched it and it’s some Mulan/Captain Marvel cookie cutter plot where the entire commercial is some dude singing the praises for a random woman (presumably the playable character), and then an evil smoky hand holding an evil wizard staff appears on screen for like 2 seconds. For all we know that female MC could be literally Hitler, we were told absolutely nothing about the game, setting, or characters except that the narrator is a retired hero. They have no depth or motivations.

Hopefully it was just a damn awful trailer and not the death of the series.

CaptPretentious,

I had to go watch it. You’re not wrong, it tells you absolutely nothing about the game. Everything looked per-rendered. It reminded me a lot of the Beyond Good and Evil 2 trailer from 2017… where it could just as easily be a CGI movie than a video game.

SkunkWorkz, (edited )

The dude was talking about the antagonist and not the playable character. That’s why the playable character says “She’s back” at the end. Also it was just a teaser trailer to remind us that the game still exist and to show some gameplay. It was definitely not a commercial to sell the game to us. The development is probably no where near finished.

FiniteBanjo,

There was zero gameplay in the trailer, except for maybe a walking animation, but I admit I missed the nuance of them describing the antagonist while a bunch of scenes of not-that-person flashed inbetween dialogue.

Storywriting needs to come before all other aspects of a narrative driven RPG like the Fable titles. The development being ongoing is no excuse for that. The only time I can think of that story changes to an ongoing development resulted in a decent product was FFX and maybe the movie Emperor’s New Groove but at the same time it’s hard not to feel like we were robbed of the story it could have been.

SkunkWorkz,

It’s just a teaser dude. Nothing about it says the writing is bad or good.

FiniteBanjo,

Oh yes it does. We can absolutely judge what we have seen so far. For some reason a narrative of this type is trending: main character is great because they’re great and awesome and everything they do is perfect, and the bad guy person is bad because they just are, and we can’t see this for ourselves so we need to be told?

We see it in movies, TV Shows, and Videogames, and people are rightly getting really sick of it.

ms_lane, (edited )

Tease != an instant turn off

The media apparatus as a whole seems to have forgotten what ‘tease’ means.

partial_accumen, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

There used to be an unspoken contract with game developers and gamers:

  • “I’ll release a finished game that you will never need to talk to me again if you don’t want to, and you can play it on any offline computer that meets the minimum specs. You will pay $X one-time for this and expect $0 spent on this game ever again”
  • “I may release an expansion pack for this game at some point in the future. It will usually cost 10% to 30% of what you paid for the original game. You are NOT required to buy this. If you like the original game the way it is, keep playing it that way. If you are a new player, you will have to buy the base game and then the expansion pack to play expansion pack content”
  • “I may, in the future, release a stand-alone sequel to the game. This game will have the same themes as the original, but I will increase the quality of the graphics/length of story/sound. You will NOT be required to buy the original game or the expansion packs to play this game. You will pay full price for this finished game”

Somewhere that evolved into shipping unfinished games, subscription based games, battlepasses, endless DLC, loot boxes, and forced online connections for single player games.

The game studios broke the contract. If they want endless money, that comes with endless work.

A_Random_Idiot,

Agreed.

The contract was broken as soon as devs and publishers started pushing the digital download lies, because if you buy the game digitally they wont have to pay for shipping, boxes, manuals, cds, storage, etc etc etc, so the games will cost less and the devs/pubs will still manage to make more money on it than they ever would have otherwise!

and now we have 70-80 dollar charges for the standard, base version of games, with triple digits for the super mega special elite deluxe ultra edition. And you don’t even get to own the fucking game, cause sony and ubisoft have both shown zero issue with going into your account and removing things you’ve bought.

partial_accumen,

You highlight another point in the unspoken contract:

  • “After you buy the game, you can play it for as long as you own it with $0 additional dollars spent. At any point in the future you’re welcome to sell your copy of the game for whatever someone will pay you for it. That new buyer will be able to play the game forever paying $0 additional dollars.”

That’s gone too.

A_Random_Idiot,

Which is what digital downloads was actually all about.

Killing the second hand market in the belief and hope that those people buying the used copy for 5 bucks, will come to the dev/pub directly and spend the 60 bucks on it brand new.

rottingleaf,

Which is why some degree of chaotic lawlessness (as in pirate disks being sold near subway entrances) is good for humanity and good for the market.

And there’s no inherent moral value in intellectual property or copyright, so only whether it’s ultimately better or worse to have it is important.

bleistift2,

and now we have 70-80 dollar charges for the standard, base version of games

Keep in mind that games have cost $60 for fucking ages, regardless of inflation.

Games Are Cheaper* Than They’ve Ever Been | Extra Credits Gaming

Games Should Not Cost $60 Anymore - Inflation, Microtransactions, and Publishing - Extra Credits (6 years old)

assassin_aragorn,

That’s why I’m really glad to see Hooded Horse and Greg Styczeń have this mindset, and that they’re actually speaking out against the GaaS mentality. They’re going back to the unspoken contract and saying the current status quo is stupid.

The headline is poorly chosen. They aren’t saying that studios should be earning endless money without work. They’re saying the GaaS model to try and earn endless money is putting devs on a treadmill, and that this shouldn’t be the case.

I hope to see more like this going forward. I don’t think gamers nor developers are a fan of GaaS trying to stay constantly relevant.

ILikeBoobies,

Because it is a much safer investment to send out a 50% costed demo to see if you can break into the market then trickle out updates to make up the rest of the cost

If your demo doesn’t land then you’ve saved half the cost of a full project that would fail anyway

rekorse,

Good luck trying to win market share with a half baked game.

WarlordSdocy,

While I agree with this for bigger game companies the problem is people apply the attitude of deserving infinite content to smaller games as well even if they don’t participate in all the things you talked about. For example with Manor Lord the only thing from what was listed that might apply is it being unfinished since it’s in early access. And while that does come with an expectation of more content the speed people expect it at is wrong especially since this game is basically being made by one person.

partial_accumen,

And while that does come with an expectation of more content the speed people expect it at is wrong especially since this game is basically being made by one person.

I appreciate the solo developer, and that they are doing most everything else right, but he opened this can of worms because he sold early access. He could have chosen to wait until the game was finished to release it, but I imagine wanted the money up front from early access to help finance the development.

If you release unfinished, you open yourself up to your customers wanting it finished, and also wanting a say in how it gets developed. I’m not saying he doesn’t have a right to sell via early access, but he brought this on himself.

ms_lane,

Exactly and now they found that doesn’t work, they’re blaming the consumer, again, for things that are their own fault.

NutWrench, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now
@NutWrench@lemmy.world avatar

A good game will stand on its own merits. It will be complete and self-contained at launch. And any DLC released later will have been planned from the very start.

Endless updates is just another word for cosmetic micro-transactions and an excuse to make you keep the game online all the time.

derpgon,

Meanwhile Terraria: “So we are releasing this last final update, but you can expect bugfixes for the next two years, and a last last final, followed by finally last last final updates in the following two quarters”

LunarLoony,
@LunarLoony@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Meanwhile Stardew: “here’s a sequel’s worth of new stuff. Oh, and here’s another sequel’s worth of new stuff. Enjoy!”

KingThrillgore,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

“And at some point we’ll open source it” I think Redigit said that, and then he gave a small fortune to Godot and MonoGame.

derpgon,

Holy shit, he said that? What a legend.

_sideffect, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I’ve seen people say 'I played forza for 150 hours and now it’s boring"

Like dude, wtf

Semi_Hemi_Demigod,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

I probably spent 150 hours just driving around the Top Gear track in reasonably priced cars.

MrDrProfJimmy,

Well how else are you supposed to figure out which celebrities you can beat over a lap?

_sideffect,

That’s fine, because you don’t seem like you find it boring yet

Semi_Hemi_Demigod,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

Users find the weirdest bugs. Figuring out what happened makes me feel like Sherlock Holmes.

Duamerthrax,

No wonder this shit isn’t sustainable. I play standalone indie boomer shooters and 100 hours would mean high praise from me.

A_Random_Idiot,

meanwhile I got like 1000 hours into new vegas and i’m still all like “wtf is this? omg I never saw this before!”

_sideffect,

I just started my first play through two weeks ago! I played F3 like crazy when it came out but never got around to Vegas

A_Random_Idiot,

Vegas is still a fantastic game 14 years later. Not many games have that kind of holding power.

I hope you have a fantastic journey through it :D wish I could play it for the first time again.

_sideffect,

Haha yeah, I feel the same way about many great games I’ve played over the years

A_Random_Idiot,

and they get offended if you tell them to go play a different game, then.

Cause some of these idiots out there, I swear to god, act like the game they are currently playing is the only game in the world, until the next new hotness that catches their attention comes out, then that will be the only game in the world.

yamanii, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

Before you throw stones be advised that this team is like 5 people at most, the game just blew up and some gamers are giving it the Valheim treatment wanting faster and faster updates.

RinseDrizzle,

Such a childish take expecting AAA speed from tiny homebrew dev teams imo. Obviously progress is going to come slower in most instances, they don’t have a tiny island nation’s worth of man power to throw. That and, I’m sorry, if my homebrew passion project blows up stupid big when I go for early access for seed money / water testing, I promise you I will be taking time off to celebrate the accomplishment.

This shit is a grind. Lots of dedication over a long period of time. Go on, hit that resort life for a minute, you earned it. Come back and finish up when you get some r&r. 🤙

Obviously still expecting progress down the line, but if I’m supporting early access I know what I’m getting into. Indie scene is where the love is, but it’s ma & pa shit. Plus there’s thousands of other ways to waste my time, I’ll check back in later if I’m bored with the game’s current build.

Waiting sucks, but chill. Save outrage for where it really matters, like genuinely shitty devs. Juuust my pocket change. 🙌

Agent641, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

How long should they be forced to walk on a treadmill for, then?

Nacktmull, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now
@Nacktmull@lemmy.world avatar

Why only devs though? No worker should be exploited like that, no matter the occupation!

FiniteBanjo,

If workers only made unfinished parts and products and complained that consumers don’t appreciate it enough, then that would be a serious problem. This dev is complaining that people badger him on how to improve and finish his game while still selling it as Early Access on Steam.

ipkpjersi,

A lot of gamers use the term “devs” colloquially when a lot of the blame for many of the evils of modern gaming should actually go to management and publishers.

t3rmit3, do gaming w 27 years later, the spirit of Lego Island lives on in a surprising place

Lego Island was an action town sim set in a Lego-themed world. There was nothing particularly “Lego” about the gameplay. I mostly just loved riding the motorcycle around the island as a kid.

The real Lego video game is still just Minecraft.

Dariusmiles2123, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I’d almost love if games were released and getting no updates after that. But only if the games are released in a complete state.

I hate the fact that you shouldn’t play some games as soon as they are released, because you’d be playing the inferior version.

That needs to change.

ech,

Eh, EA can certainly be a problem, but it’s also an incredibly useful resource for devs operating in good faith, opening up the field for talent that would otherwise be priced out of making a game at all. Personally, I’m ok ignoring money grabs if it means the barrier of entry for resource starved talent is lowered.

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Yeah same. I mean EA is a bet and you can’t expect to win every bet ever. Just don’t wager money you’d miss if it was completely lost.

CosmoNova,

Manor Lords is early access. At least one patch is to be expected. And of course the publisher is absolutely right. If my memory serves me well one dev developed the game all on his own so far and the challenge of meeting expectations after being a massive success is huge. Hiring more people to get developments going is likely necessary but expanding takes time. Some players have unrealistic expectations in general but even more so when it comes to small indie productions.

scops,

I just had flashbacks to Dead State. It was a AA title written by one of the guys from Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines so I was watching it closely during development.

Suddenly, it went from EA to full release. I was surprised, but picked it up without reading many reviews.

I enjoyed the game and put maybe 15 hours into it, but then I had to move and had to pack up my PC for a few weeks. By the time I got settled and booted it up, it had gotten a massive patch which fixed a ton of bugs, filled in missing content like item descriptions and a bunch of other polish that would typically be done during pre-launch.

Meanwhile, one of the devs had gotten into a high profile pissing match with the community over accusations they had rushed it out the door. I normally try to sympathize with devs over a reactive community, but I couldn’t help feel like I got punished for buying the game at launch and experiencing those relatively non-replayable opening hours in a non-optimal (Dead) state.

umami_wasbi, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Until they ditch the “live service” model, this will continues. How many big title games today are really sold in a complete no BS state where DLC actually means extra contents? No much I guess.

That stems from the revenue model, and not by gamers.

yeather,

I feel like Paradox games falls into this category, problem is everyone is so used to playing the okder title with all of the dlc that people feel the new title is barebones and unfinished.

mrvictory1,

That is because DLCs add a lot of value to Paradox games (excluding recent controversies) so people wait then grab all DLC in a bundle discount.

errer,

Yeah but if you wanna buy say, Stellaris, with all its DLCs, you’re looking at at least $100-$200 depending on the sales. You pay for that bigger game.

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Definitely. Age of Wonders 4 was awesome to play at launch, but it definitely feels more “complete” now that all 4 DLCs are out. It feels like it was clearly hacked to pieces to be sold separate.

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Minecraft falls squarely in this category. I paid 15$ some 12 years ago and am still getting a yearly update for free.

And yet if you go in the MC community, one of the most common complaints people have is that the updates are never enough and the Devs are lazy etc… I guess this goes to the point of this article, people can easily be trained to have unrealistic expectations.

I’m not crying for Mojang/Microsoft but I can’t imagine how it feels to be an indie dev and have people shit on you because the work you do for free is not good enough.

2ncs,

And yet if you go in the MC community, one of the most common complaints people have is that the updates are never enough and the Devs are lazy etc… I guess this goes to the point of this article, people can easily be trained to have unrealistic expectations.

Tbh I think a big part of the problem is Mojang’s failure to communicate with it’s players, less so the lack of features being added.

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

I don’t know, they have an annual event, affiliate youtubers who distill the news as they come, “leakers” on twitter. You can’t really expect a studio to pull a 1.16 every year, but short of that it seems there is no way to please the MC community.

simple,

Minecraft is a special case. They promise a lot and what we got is a version of the game that’s microtransaction hell. Texture packs, mods, maps, etc all cost outrageous amounts of money in the console/windows10 version of the game. The community is mad because they’re clearly spending way more money on making content for the store than doing any actual updates for the game. The most we get is something like a new mob every six months…

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

microtransaction hell

As far as i know the full game is entirely playable without spending a dime more than the price of the game. You can join an infinity of multiplayer servers or play the game solo from start to finish and beyond, and you still get the yearly update which, despite your statement, includes much more than “a new mob every six months”.

I personally don’t mind that cosmetics and entirely optional non-game-advantaging additional content are paid, as it is what bankrolls the studio to keep pumping out free updates every year. How do you propose they finance this otherwise ?

simple,

As far as i know the full game is entirely playable without spending a dime more than the price of the game.

That’s not the point, they took something that was free and community-driven and locked it down so you can only install things from the store where everything costs money. Only specific people even have access to make mods in that version.

as it is what bankrolls the studio to keep pumping out free updates every year.

They’re not a small indie company. Mojang earns hundreds of millions of dollars per year. They can afford to do something with the game other than pumping out dozens of microtransactions a month. They could optimize the good version of the game but actively choose not to. They promised a proper modding toolkit for the game but never made it because it would harm their paid store. The game practically lives off its modding community and in the last 10 years they’ve done nothing for them.

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

I don’t know, the bedrock version started in 2011 way before Microsoft bought the studio. It was never free or community-driven, it is cheaper than the Java version, but it doesn’t have access to the free modding community. This sounds like a relatively good non-toxic deal to me, either you pay upfront or you suffer the micro-transactions. If you don’t have the money, you can still play the full game for a relatively low price.

Your implication that they don’t optimize or develop new content for the base game is simply unfounded and proven wrong every year like clockwork.

Gigasser,

I’d recommend the java version

chronicledmonocle, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Game Publishers: complains about how users expect endless content

Also Game Publishers: Mostly pushes for live service games and Free-to-Play

surprisedpikachu.gif

pyre,

is Manor Lords live service? seems like they’re arguing against the notion that every game must be live service.

chronicledmonocle,

I was speaking of the gaming industry as a whole. I know very little about this developer. Perhaps they’re one of the good ones swept up in unfortunate-ness.

FiniteBanjo,

No, but it is still Early Access.

ObsidianZed,

Alternatively

Game Publishers: Release unfinished game that gets horrid backlash until they work overtime to patch it to a slightly more playable hell, get caught in an update loop, game inadvertantly becomes live service.

Sometimes, it works out (No Man’s Sky)

chronicledmonocle,

Most of the time it ends up shovelware, though.

jh29a,

see elsewhere: doubt about whether all game publishers are the same

chronicledmonocle,

Not saying they are. Just the ones that are the biggest and make the most money

malchior, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Never preorder. Never surrender.

neoproterozoic,

Sadly this even has evolved into never buy at launch

masquenox, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Riiiight… it’s the users of the product that is forcing the producers to work under toxic conditions, and totally not their money-grubbing capitalist bosses.

Riiiight.

rottingleaf, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I remember a few games which didn’t require such sacrifices from developers.

Some even commercial. Like NWN, with people making their own campaigns without, you know, any effort spent by the developers of the game itself.

Of course when the business model is milking players and making it problematic (either technically or by paradigm) to satisfy interest with community-made modifications, then all the load is on the devs or else the game becomes irrelevant. Well, guess whose fault that is.

Grofit, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I think part of the problem is down to how a lot of games come out as “Early Access” which implies it’s more bare bones and will get fleshed out over time.

If a game releases as EA then the expectation is you will get more content until release, if a game just comes out without EA then it’s assumed it has all content and anything new is dlc/mtx/expansions.

I’m not gonna bother addressing Live Service games, wish they would go in the bin with most other MTX.

digdilem,

Absolutely. I will never buy another Early Access game - it’s buying something that is clearly unfinished, and you the player never get a second chance at the first impression. There’s too many other games to expect us to come back and try it again once there’s more content and the bugs are ironed out.

Grofit,

I’m not against early access as a whole, if devs want to get player feedback earlier on in the life cycle and players are happy to be pseudo testers then it’s fine.

I get some people would rather wait and buy when it’s finished, and some studiosd/devs would rather bypass EA and just release the game outright, but I feel both paradigms can exist as long as both parties (devs/consumers) continue to benefit.

bigmclargehuge,
@bigmclargehuge@lemmy.world avatar

Early access definitely has its place. I’ve bought several EA games I really enjoy, and it’s kind of rewarding seeing something go from basic and threadbare to a more complete picture, and knowing I was a part of that is satisfying. I’ve also been burned by EA too, so it’s a double sided coin.

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Rogue Legacy 2 was a standout example for me. I was happy to support the developer while they worked on the game, and all progress carried over to the finished product. Granted, roguelikes in particular are really well suited for EA because they’re meant to be played over and over with no real end.

bigmclargehuge,
@bigmclargehuge@lemmy.world avatar

Ground Branch for me. Love the old Rainbow Six games, and I find that newer tactical shooters in general just don’t hit the mark for me. GB still has a long way to go but actually has some original R6 devs at the helm and has an excellent core experience so far, and it’s only getting better.

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