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Grofit, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I think part of the problem is down to how a lot of games come out as “Early Access” which implies it’s more bare bones and will get fleshed out over time.

If a game releases as EA then the expectation is you will get more content until release, if a game just comes out without EA then it’s assumed it has all content and anything new is dlc/mtx/expansions.

I’m not gonna bother addressing Live Service games, wish they would go in the bin with most other MTX.

digdilem,

Absolutely. I will never buy another Early Access game - it’s buying something that is clearly unfinished, and you the player never get a second chance at the first impression. There’s too many other games to expect us to come back and try it again once there’s more content and the bugs are ironed out.

Grofit,

I’m not against early access as a whole, if devs want to get player feedback earlier on in the life cycle and players are happy to be pseudo testers then it’s fine.

I get some people would rather wait and buy when it’s finished, and some studiosd/devs would rather bypass EA and just release the game outright, but I feel both paradigms can exist as long as both parties (devs/consumers) continue to benefit.

bigmclargehuge,
@bigmclargehuge@lemmy.world avatar

Early access definitely has its place. I’ve bought several EA games I really enjoy, and it’s kind of rewarding seeing something go from basic and threadbare to a more complete picture, and knowing I was a part of that is satisfying. I’ve also been burned by EA too, so it’s a double sided coin.

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Rogue Legacy 2 was a standout example for me. I was happy to support the developer while they worked on the game, and all progress carried over to the finished product. Granted, roguelikes in particular are really well suited for EA because they’re meant to be played over and over with no real end.

bigmclargehuge,
@bigmclargehuge@lemmy.world avatar

Ground Branch for me. Love the old Rainbow Six games, and I find that newer tactical shooters in general just don’t hit the mark for me. GB still has a long way to go but actually has some original R6 devs at the helm and has an excellent core experience so far, and it’s only getting better.

11111one11111, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I don’t want a fucking endless game I want a finished game for the price I pay at release that doesn’t require $3000 gpu to render the most obnoxiously detailed graphics of a game that has the fucking depth of mine sweeper.

intensely_human, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Generally speaking it’s impossible to define a standard for how much output is “enough” for a developer.

Management always wants to extract as much as possible.

FiniteBanjo,

Well actually there is something of a standard:

Manor Lords is sold as Early Access. Meaning it doesn’t reach the “enough.”

bread, do gaming w 27 years later, the spirit of Lego Island lives on in a surprising place
@bread@feddit.nl avatar

Fortnite.

digdilem, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I just want to buy a game that’s actually finished. Early Access has ruined that first play experience.

umami_wasbi,

Depends. Like Satisfactory, I’m extremely satisfied by their pace of development.

ThoranTW,

So, you could say you find their pacing Satisfactory?

xavier666,

Pun police: Stop right there, criminal scum! You have violated the law. Pay the court a fine or serve your sentence!

Phegan,

Few games do it well, and I suspect we are getting those games because of early access. Other games exploit it, they can get fucked

lolcatnip,

I swore off early access after Phoenix Point. It sucks to already be bored with a game before it has the major kinks worked out.

Dead Cells is kind of a counterpoint, though. I’m not sure if I got it as “early access” per se, but since I bought it, they made some major balance changes that completely changed the meta, and those changes got me playing way more enthusiastically than I was before.

vasus, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Very reasonable, I hope the dev sticks to his guns and keeps a manageable pace. I feel that it’s right to expect content updates coming in if the game is marked early access, but so long as you don’t pull a Valheim, people shouldn’t be mad at you

AlexWIWA,

God I wish valheim had been finished

Kecessa,

Isn’t it still being worked on?

Zahille7,

It is. It’s just slow, and you know how G*mers are about slow dev cycles.

“Dead game! Dead game!” Then how come they just released a huge update for it with the next entire biome a few weeks ago?

AlexWIWA,

It’s been four years and all of my friends moved on. I still enjoy it but there’s only so much fun to be had solo

AlexWIWA,

I think it’s going to be like 7 Days to Die and just never be completed. I’m hoping they’ll eventually do one big announcement or final release that will get my friends to log back in

makyo,

I guess I’m OOTL - what happened with Valheim?

simple,

Nothing that bad, but the updates are insanely slow and the roadmap of things they promised in 2021 took 3-4 years instead of one. At this rate the game could spend a decade in early access.

Zahille7,

True, but it is still being worked on.

Another EA game that I was really into a couple years ago until they abandoned, and now they’re starting back up on it again, is Starbase.

blanketswithsmallpox, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Thank you for all the free updates ConcernedApe. I hope you’re enjoying your time with your millions and if/when you release the Haunted Chocolatier I’ll get that too. You’re great and your game is great.

sunzu, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Sounds like a management issue, how is the guy paying for the services gets shitted on here

I also don't understand why I am being scolded by a guy I paid 30 bucks too for alpha testimg...

I never complained.

Badeendje,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think it is targeted at you or me. Ofc there are some gamers out there that would be whipping the dev given the chance.

But the main issue seems to be unrealistic and poorly managed expectations. From management, devs themselves and gamers.

I think the silent majority knows what they are getting into and understand sometimes you buy a melon, but mostly devs just take longer than people want.

sunzu,

the silent majority knows what they are getting into

You are correct here but the headlines like these make me wonder if I am an idiot for spending money on the alpha game. I don't like the one as paying silent majority. They need to work on their PR IMHO

Badeendje,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think we are idiots for buying certain early access games. I personally judge games based on the state they are in at the moment they are offered and take some of the promises into account. But also so far I have had relatively little issues beyond game balancing etc with many games. And usually crash issues get fixed quick.

The satisfactory devs have a good interaction with their community and manage expectations properly.

So in this case the dev could take an hour every other week and write a blog post or something. That was also a good way the dev of banished used to do it.

Tilgare, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I don’t want the devs to kill themselves for a game, obviously. I don’t think anyone does. People just want content updates for a property they love. In an industry that lays off people after they ship a game or starts work immediately on the franchise yearly $70 sequel, I just want a game developer that does better than that. That’s why the whole world waited patiently for the follow up to the GOTY of 2022 with Shadow of the Erdtree. Elden Ring didn’t get a ton of free content updates in that time, they didn’t make it a live service or offer mtx, and they didn’t pump out their massive expansion in an unreasonable time frame. They built an incredible game and incredible world, and then they continued development on the game they had poured their hearts into for years and spent the time they needed to create the expansion the game deserved, and at a reasonable price.

Grandwolf319, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Weird post. I thought we were all aware of the enshitification in gaming, they had a head start on the rest of the tech industry.

Mini_Moonpie, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

The article says that comment came from a CEO of another game company, not players. Tim Bender, the CEO of the publisher for The Manor Lord, said “Players are happy, the developer is happy, and we as publisher are thrilled beyond belief.” I don’t understand where the post title that says he cited gamer expectations came from.

eezeebee, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now
@eezeebee@lemmy.ca avatar

I’m kind of confused about the whole early access thing and why devs do it. Is it to get support and funding to finish the project?

Marighost,
@Marighost@lemm.ee avatar

Basically, yeah. If your game is in a playable state, launching in early access allows devs to get feedback from the community, who help shape the game all the way to the full release. Generally EA games are discounted, with the expectation that it isn’t finished or polished, full of bugs, etc.

eezeebee,
@eezeebee@lemmy.ca avatar

That makes sense and I hadn’t considered the feedback aspect. I can see how that must be helpful, especially for a solo developer. Thanks!

Zahille7,

In almost all the EA games I play, there’s some kind of “bug report” feature, either somewhere directly on the screen while you’re playing, or in the pause menu or something.

Chee_Koala,

Adding to the other reply to this: You can get natural growth of fans and wishlists, you can get free media attention so your brand/gamename grows in popularity, you can receive enthusiasm from randoms about work you have been keeping to yourself for a while, which can help motivate. I mean I’m super hyped about my own videogame project, but having other people be hyped about it is very rewarding :-). I used to shun early access until they became 1.0, because I got burnt a couple times. But If the dev(s) are transparent and communication is ok, I don’t really care anymore for the same reason as this dev is pointing out: “It’s done when it’s done” is good enough in 95% of the cases for me.

eezeebee,
@eezeebee@lemmy.ca avatar

I’m dabbling in game development myself, and that’s part of why I asked the question originally- I’d be terrified to put something out there for the public if I wasn’t already confident it was ready. Early access seems like a double-edged sword. But you list some good points about the benefits of doing so.

By the way, I am interested to hear about your game project if you would like to share some details.

Chee_Koala,

I think the crucial part is natural fanbase growth… As a solo dev, your marketing budget is gonna be so extremely tiny, and releasing with 0 marketing is setting yourself up for disappointment so, it has got to come from somewhere. Maybe EA is not a necessity, but having a steam page is. Confidently typing this while not having a steam page to show for it, but you know what the Dutch say: the best captain is ashore (de beste stuurlui staan aan wal)

It’s gonna be extremely terrifying 😅

elxeno,

AFAIK u get a half release before to get some attention and media/youtubers coverage and people to test your game and make suggestions.

Then you get another release when exiting EA (notifies whishlist and steam gives boosts visibility to released games for a short while and it gets extended if it goes well)

Aceticon, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

PC/Console games take massive amounts of man hours to make and as I see it the point of Early Access is to give smaller Indie Developers the funds to hire more people and get the entire game made in an achievable time frame (though some of these things still take almost a decade to get there).

It’s a bit like Kickstart, but for Early Access there needs to be enough of a product to appeal to gamers (and hence quite some time invested into creating it up to that point, plus a decent idea and an actual game play which is deep enough and has at least a good enough basis of gameplay design that it’s actually fun to play), which also means scams are far less likely because just getting the game all the way to a level that qualifies it for Early Access is already quite the investment in time and possibly money plus worse comes to worse and the developer stops development immediately after caching in with Early Access, buyers still got themselves immediatelly a small game at a cheap price, though not the “dream” full game they were promised they would eventually get.

BilboBargains, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Remove ‘gamers’ and insert ‘bloated management’.

cheddar,
@cheddar@programming.dev avatar

Is it bloated management who complains on social media and forums?

whotookkarl, (edited )
@whotookkarl@lemmy.world avatar

Gamers are not asking devs to work until burnout on social media or forums, that’s management and usually in person or department/company policy and procedure.

Edit: more specifically to the article for solo devs they are talking about critics complaining they should have made something bigger which is not a bad problem to have for securing funding for future games if people like your art enough to request more and doesn’t require working burnout hours.

ByteJunk, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now
@ByteJunk@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t know if this recaps the situation accurately, to be honest.

Sounds like the publisher is complaining about some article that’s trying to use the game as a reference on why early access can be a bad thing.

I don’t see how the gamers are an issue though. They will expect what you tell them to expect, this is something for the publisher to manage, and I don’t even think this is a problem for Manor Lords.

All of it just seems like news sites trying to come up with their clicks.

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