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ArchmageAzor, do games w Terraforming Mars team defends AI use as Kickstarter hits $1.3 million
@ArchmageAzor@lemmy.world avatar

I didn’t see the sub at first and thought it was a kickstarter for a real-life mars terraformation project

Potatos_are_not_friends, do games w Terraforming Mars team defends AI use as Kickstarter hits $1.3 million

A small team of 7 was able to create something of this magnitude , all thanks to the various tools of today like Generative AI.

We talk about the bad stuff of AI. But here’s the good… small mom and pop shops being able to release top tier products like the big companies.

circuitfarmer,
@circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

It’s arguably not good that we’re normalizing people being able to use this while its training relied on other creators who were not compensated.

Ethanice,

My programming training relied on other creators who were not compensated.

ech,

Humans using past work to improve, iterate, and further contribute themselves is not the same as a program throwing any and all art into the machine learning blender to regurgitate “art” whenever its button is pushed. Not only does it not add anything to the progress of art, it erases the identity of the past it consumed, all for the blind pursuit of profit.

Sethayy,

Oh yeah tell me who invented the word ‘regurgitate’ without googling it. Cause the its historical identity is important right?

Or how bout who first created the internet?

Its ok if you dont know, this is how humans work, on the backs of giants

ech,

Me not knowing everything doesn’t mean it isn’t known or knowable. Also, there’s a difference between things naturally falling into obscurity over time and context being removed forcefully.

Sethayy,

And then there’s when its too difficult to upkeep them, exactly like how you can’t know everything.

We probably ain’t gonna stop innovation, so we mine as well roll with it (especially when its doing a great job redistributing previously expensive assets)

ech,

If it’s “too difficult” to manage, that may be a sign it shouldn’t just be let loose without critique. Also, innovation is not inherently good and “rolling with it” is just negligent.

echodot,

It’s too difficult for you to manage not for it to manage. Keep up.

ech,

Does meandering into other’s conversations and arbitrarily insulting people make you feel better about yourself?

echodot,

I don’t know if you understand how this website works but you’re not on private IMs

Sethayy,

If its too difficult to manage, we should manage it?🤨

Franzia,

I imagine creators who… released their work for free, and/or open source?

MomoTimeToDie,

deleted_by_author

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  • Franzia,

    When we’re talking about instructional content and source code, yeah. Visual art online follows a different paradigm.

    acutfjg,

    Were they in public forums and sites like stack overflow and GitHub where they wanted people to use and share their code?

    echodot,

    Where did the AI companies get their code from? Is scraped from the likes of stack overflow and GitHub.

    They don’t have the proprietary code that is used to run companies because it’s proprietary and it’s never been on a public forum available for download.

    ArmokGoB, (edited )

    Stable Diffusion uses a dataset from Common Crawl, which pulled art from public websites that allowed them to do so. DeviantArt and ArtStation allowed this, without exception, until recently.

    moon_matter, (edited )
    @moon_matter@kbin.social avatar

    Devil's advocate. It means that only large companies will have AI, as they would be the only ones capable of paying such a large number of people. AI is going to come anyway except now the playing field is even more unfair since you've removed the ability for an individual to use the technology.

    Instituting these laws would just be the equivalent of companies pulling the ladder up behind them after taking the average artist's work to use as training data.

    Corkyskog,

    How would you even go about determining what percentage belongs to the AI vs the training data? You could argue all of the royalties should go to the creators of the training data, meaning no one could afford to do it.

    moon_matter,
    @moon_matter@kbin.social avatar

    How would you identify text or images generated by AI after they have been edited by a human? Even after that, how would you know what was used as the source for training data? People would simply avoid revealing any information and even if you did pass a law and solved all of those issues, it would still only affect the country in question.

    Lmaydev, (edited )

    Then we shouldn’t have artists because they looked at other art without paying.

    mindbleach,

    As distinct from human artists who pay dividends for every image they’ve seen, every idea they’ve heard, and every trend they’ve followed.

    The more this technology shovels into the big fat network of What Is Art, the less any single influence will show through.

    kmkz_ninja,

    Oonga boonga wants his royalty checks for having first drawn a circle 25,000 years ago.

    Dkarma,

    Literally the definition of greed. They dont deserve royalties for being an inspiration and moving a weight a fraction of a percentage in one direction…

    WeLoveCastingSpellz,
    @WeLoveCastingSpellz@lemmy.fmhy.net avatar

    AI = stolen data

    Grumpy,

    If AI art is stolen data, then every artists on earth are thieves too.

    Do you think artists just spontaneously conjure up art? No. Through their entire life of looking at other people’s works, they learned how to do stuff, they emulate and they improve. That’s how human artists come to be. Do you think artists go around asking permission from millions of past artists if they can learn from their art? Do artists track down whoever made the fediverse logo if I want to make a similar shaped art with it? Hell no. Consent in general is impossible too because whole lot of them are likely too dead to give consent be honest. Its the exact same way AI is made.

    Your argument holds no consistent logic.

    Furthermore, you likely have a misunderstanding of how AI is trained and works. AI models do not store nor copy art that it’s trained on. It studies shapes, concepts, styles, etc. It puts these concepts into matrix of vectors. Billions of images and words are turned into mere 2 gigabytes in something like SD fp16. 2GB is virtually nothing. There’s no compression capable of anywhere near that. So unless you actually took very few images and made a 2GB model, it has no capability to store or copy another person’s art. It has no knowledge of any existing copyrighted work anymore. It only knows the concepts and these concepts like a circle, square, etc. are not copyrightable.

    If you think I’m just being pro-AI for the sake of it. Well, it doesn’t matter. Because copyright offices all over the world have started releasing their views on AI art. And it’s unanimously in agreement that it’s not stolen. Furthermore, resulting AI artworks can be copyrighted (lot more complexity there, but that’s for another day).

    WeLoveCastingSpellz,
    @WeLoveCastingSpellz@lemmy.fmhy.net avatar

    L take, AI is not a person and doesn’t have the right to learn like a person. It is a tool and it can be used to replicate others art.

    echodot,

    That doesn’t make it bad.

    It’s a tool that can be used to replicate other art except it doesn’t replicate art does it.

    It creates works based on other works which is exactly what humans do whether or not it’s sapient is irrelevant. My work isn’t valuable because it’s copyrightable. On a sociopath things like that

    Grumpy,

    What gives a human right to learn off of another person without credit? There is no such inherent right.

    Even if such a right existed, I as a person who can make AI training, would then have the right to create a tool to assist me in learning, because I’m a person with same rights as anyone else. If it’s just a tool, which it is, then it is not the AI which has the right to learn, I have the right to learn, which I used to make the tool.

    I can use photoshop to replicate art a lot more easily than with AI. None of us are going around saying Photoshop is wrong. (Though we did say that before) The AI won’t know any specific art unless it’s an extremely repeated pattern like “mona lisa”. It literally do not have the capacity to contain other people’s art, and therefore it cannot replicate others art. I have already proven that mathematically.

    Dkarma,

    Yep, these ppl act like they get to choose who or what ingest their product when they make it available willingly on the internet…oftentimes for free.

    This whole argument falls on its face once u realize they don’t want AI to stop…they just want a cut.

    evilsmurf, do games w Terraforming Mars team defends AI use as Kickstarter hits $1.3 million

    Awesome, I didn’t know they had a kickstarter going. No such thing as bad press I guess.

    kae, do games w Terraforming Mars team defends AI use as Kickstarter hits $1.3 million

    Good interview. They didn’t let them off the hook, but weren’t pushing an agenda either.

    This is going to be a moving target that someone is going to pay big bucks to figure out in court. International laws are not up to speed on what is or isn’t ok here, and the ethical discussion is interesting to watch unfold.

    alleycat, do games w Terraforming Mars team defends AI use as Kickstarter hits $1.3 million
    @alleycat@feddit.de avatar
    PenguinTD, do gaming w Immortals of Aveum studio lays off nearly half of staff weeks after release

    I bought the game for science cause it was the only game so far using all major features of UE5 and is a good reference to see how they manage asset, etc to keep the game running at 60fps with provided spec.

    I think it does have potential, the mechanic is tight enough(the kbm default binding is not good, needs some rebind to make the combat flow more fluid), frame pacing is smooth majority of time(you have jitter mostly when it switch between cutscenes<->game), pretty much checked all the boxes and doesn’t feel lacking when playing the game.

    BUT, it does have poor marketing plan and kinda bad luck in releasing window. It’s a good “alt shooter game” IMO.

    ampersandrew,
    @ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

    It also requires EA's always-online DRM like the recent Star Wars Jedi games. Steam needs to make that notification bigger so I know not to buy that sort of trash.

    PenguinTD,

    You mean denuvo? I think it’s a money sinker now so might as well remove it at this point. But it’s EA’s call. Also, yes I have to download EA’s launcher as well.

    ampersandrew,
    @ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

    And EA's launcher requires an active internet connection. Try playing Jedi: Fallen Order on a train, because I sure did, and it doesn't work. There may be a way to sidestep the launcher, particularly on older games like this one that had the launcher retrofitted into it after launch, but regardless, it tells me to stop buying EA games.

    PenguinTD, (edited )

    I generally avoid denuvo and EA. I literally break this stance just to see what they did with UE5 but ended up enjoying the game as well. It sucks cause denuvo means I can’t hook up RenderDoc and see how they render a frame compare to stock UE5. The movement reminds me a lot of original Quakes(very close to Q3) where you can have lots of control mid air and really snappy movement speed with their mechanics(blinks and grapples). But yeah, if this game doesn’t have this “use all UE5 latest tech” tag I will probably not even know or touching it cause I don’t play shooters after like Battlefield 3. Cause I am old and I like fast arena shooter not modern slow pace CQB/battle pass shooter, I was quite disappointed after trying Halo Infinite. But, that said, any shooter fits my criteria, would probably fail in sales. ^^;

    lol, I go take a look, yep, battlefield 3.(note, I have no idea when I added crysis, it’s probably from a bundle or something and it redeems directly. I had high hope when crysis 2 released. ) And yes, I did played 2042 open beta cause we had a company game day that picked the open beta.(and yep I don’t like it. )

    https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/bdcb3af6-ad5b-416d-9e5b-88090c1b8fab.png

    ampersandrew,
    @ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

    I don't think we're looking for the same type of shooter per se, but I agree that they don't make them for me anymore either.

    PenguinTD,

    Like which type of shooter is your thing?? For me it’s the quick arena/team shooter, my good shooter example would be Q3 and Tribes 2. I think it’s really satisfying when moving quickly and shoot people with actual projectiles, rocket/disc launcher in my examples. (not a fan of hit scan type)

    ampersandrew, (edited )
    @ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

    Not quite Quake speed, though I enjoy Quake just fine too. For me, the sweet spot was stuff like Halo, 007, Metal Arms, Half-Life, Crysis, that sort of thing. But yeah, everything these days is an online-only, live service battle royale or extraction shooter.

    Molecular0079, do gaming w Immortals of Aveum studio lays off nearly half of staff weeks after release

    On one hand, I applaud EA for at least attempting a new IP this time around instead of churning out yet another sequel, but on the other hand, damned if Immortals of Aveum didn’t look like the most generic thing out there.

    jordanlund,
    !deleted7836 avatar

    Looked at it and went “Eh, could be interesting, but I don’t buy EA games and it will be $20 at Black Friday.”

    Potatos_are_not_friends,

    EA, Ubisoft, Activision…

    I do it with a lot of big name AAA companies

    chrisphero,

    Another benefit is that they are more often then not patched up and better playable, compared to the release.

    sculd, do gaming w It shouldn’t be this hard to play old Armored Core games

    haha…I play AC3 Last Raven on my PSP Its going to break my hand

    Phanatik, do gaming w It shouldn’t be this hard to play old Armored Core games

    I've been ripping PS3 games for a little while now. I've recently bought some Dynasty Warriors Gundam games from Japan which I'm dumping at the moment.

    Armoured Core has especially been in a thorn in my side. I've got 4 and 5 but still trying to acquire For Answer and Verdict Day. They're extremely hard to come across. I haven't looked at the PS2 games but I'm sure I could find those for cheap. Super easy to rip with a standard Disk Drive.

    eltimablo,

    I've got a rip of 4A if you want it. Might even have my old copy for 360 around here somewhere if you'd prefer that.

    Phanatik,

    That's very kind of you. I prefer physical CDs that I can redump if anything gets messed up. Haven't seen what I need to dump 360 games but I can give it a go.

    SenorBolsa,
    @SenorBolsa@beehaw.org avatar

    360 games require original hardware unless there’s been some breakthrough recently. They use their own kinda weird dual layer DVD format.

    Phanatik,

    Well shit. I think I'm close to being done with the PS3 exclusives so the 360 is an option.

    SenorBolsa,
    @SenorBolsa@beehaw.org avatar

    Yeah you can get drives that can rip them with third party firmware installed, (I have drives with custom firmware for other things) but the cheapest way is to just use an actual Xbox 360. Doesn’t need to be modded, Xenia can just use an installed game, so you just install the game to a flash drive then you can move it to your PC and run it from there.

    Pxtl,
    @Pxtl@lemmy.ca avatar

    I’m curious, can a standard Blu-ray drive on a PC rip PS3 games? Or do you need special hardware? I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was to rip PS1 games.

    Phanatik,

    I've read that you can use a Blue-Ray drive. The RPCS3 website has a proper guide on it though I haven't tried it. I jailbroke my PS3 (not fully because it's one of the 320GB models) and use that with FileZilla to dump games over the internet onto my PC.

    Pxtl, do gaming w It shouldn’t be this hard to play old Armored Core games
    @Pxtl@lemmy.ca avatar

    If you’re trying to do it legally, you can easily to rip your own ps1 games with a drive bay. Haven’t tried it on PS2 or ps3 games. And ps1 emulation runs amazing on phones and raspberry pis.

    So my ps1 emulation collection is pretty legit.

    We shall not speak of the other consoles.

    amazing2, (edited ) do gaming w It shouldn’t be this hard to play old Armored Core games

    Eh, if you want to play retro games just buy a used console, mod it, play pirated games. Of if your PC is good enough just emulate.

    I love how the author of the article says that From Software should put out ports of the old games (and maybe remaster them while they’re at it) but you know when they review the package they’ll give a low score, say the game “really show its age” and “is only recommended for hardcore fans.” Well, the hardcore fans have played the originals and if not, they know how to emulate or pirate old games to use with original hardware.

    Sentinian,
    @Sentinian@lemmy.one avatar

    Unless you are trying to the the ps3 game the ps2 and psp should be able to be emulated on literally any pc.

    Hell psp runs fine on most android phones as well.

    You literally have to be trying to not find a way to play these games if you say they aren’t easy to play. Fuck legality if the copyright hold is sitting on these games for no fucking reason

    amazing2,

    Yeah PSP games are trivial to emulate. My 2015 MacBook Air can run PPSSPP with ease, the games look great with the upped resolution.

    SuperSteef,

    Even the PS3 game can be played via an emulator. The tech is still evolving so you still need a fairly powerful computer but it is playable. For reference, I was able to test archiving various PS3 games on my now 11 year old gaming PC which was a medium-tier system at the time of the build.

    Domiku,

    I totally agree, but emulation still requires tons of unpaid work by enthusiasts. If/when Sony stops selling the PS3, they should turn over the source code and allow the community to make something really great. It’s not like they make any money of used console and game sales.

    amazing2,

    True but that’s how it’s always been. Most people who make emulators do it for the challenge or because they care about game preservation or both.

    And they’ve done some wonderful things. One of my favourite things ever is the Nintendont launcher on the Wii. It lets you play GameCube disc images on the Wii natively. Even lets you use the normal controllers instead of having to plug in the original GameCube ones.

    raptir,

    I love how the author of the article says that From Software should put out ports of the old games (and maybe remaster them while they’re at it) but you know when they review the package they’ll give a low score, say the game “really show its age” and “is only recommended for hardcore fans.”

    That’s not quite fair - Polygon had good things to say about the Cowabunga Collection for example.

    Sentinian, do gaming w It shouldn’t be this hard to play old Armored Core games
    @Sentinian@lemmy.one avatar

    Its very easy to play the older AC games. Download a rom/iso and emulator

    This is exactly why emulation is a needed thing.

    eltimablo,

    Shortly before launch, I set up AC4A on a PS3 emulator and it literally could not have been easier.

    EvaUnit02,
    @EvaUnit02@kbin.social avatar

    Well, except for the fact that all four PS3 AC games are listed as "Ingame" on the RPCS3 compatability list.

    eltimablo,

    Those ratings are user-reported and most are several years out of date. I played 4A from beginning to end without any issues.

    Haui, do gaming w It shouldn’t be this hard to play old Armored Core games
    @Haui@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    It should be the same for everything: if an ip is no longer used, it should be in the public domain. Therefore, a company holding said IP is forced to use it (as in selling copies) or give it up.

    Domiku,

    Yes. I can imagine a middle-ground of copyright. If the IP is still being used, it enters the public domain on the regular schedule. But if it’s abandoned, it enters earlier… perhaps after 5-10 years of non-use.

    Haui,
    @Haui@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    Honestly, in our fast moving world, I‘d do like a year. If nothing gets announced or release, you‘re done.

    Example, you take a book, game or song from the market because you want people to be unable to buy it before you release the successor. Then you delay the successor for 5 yrs. Boom, public domain.

    jordanlund, do gaming w Baldur’s Gate 3 just made the future of Xbox Series S a bit more uncertain
    !deleted7836 avatar

    It’s a boat anchor, it’s time for Microsoft to cut it loose and release a digital only Series X.

    11/2020 to 11/2023, not a bad run, figure it’s 1/2 way through this generation. Time for it to go.

    gk99, do gaming w Baldur’s Gate 3 just made the future of Xbox Series S a bit more uncertain

    All other game developers in the history of games have understood the concept of making the lowest-powered device you’re launching on the baseline for development. We’ve dealt with crippled titles on more powerful consoles for ages, I’m sure Larian’ll figure it out for their next game.

    deegeese,

    Cyberpunk 2077 was a far bigger mess on Xbox-S.

    Not the first time a game fell flat on an underpowered console.

    TauriWarrior,

    Why should they compromise because Microsoft demanded feature parity between their two consoles? They even had Microsoft engineers try and couldn’t get it to work with splitscreen on the S. If Microsoft wanted the S treated the same as the X they should have included more RAM. Games shouldn’t be held back because Microsoft released a console that’s between generations.

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