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Red_October, do gaming w You can't sue us for making games 'too entertaining,' say major game developers in response to addiction lawsuits

Well, you can sue someone for anything, you just can’t win for anything. For instance, those developers could countersue because the negligence and bad parenting of those parents materially damaged the reputation of those companies.

Max_P, do gaming w You can't sue us for making games 'too entertaining,' say major game developers in response to addiction lawsuits
@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me avatar

Some of these are engineered to be addicting especially loot crates and stuff. A lot of them are just genuinely good.

They mention Minecraft, pretty sure that one was addicting since day 1 and completely unintentionally so. It’s just genuinely fun and you can spend hours in it easily. Same with Factorio.

Not exactly a new phenomenon, I’ve seen my own parents up at 4am just because they wanted to sneak a peek at the new level they reached. My mom had hand drawn and annotated the entire Zelda 1 map. For a little bit, that NES basically ran on a UPS to not lose their progress.

For some reason US parents always want to shift the blame to companies for their own failures. It’s her own damn fault she let this get out of control for 10 fucking years. Just like those that park their kids on an iPad all the time and then sues because their kid spends too much time on the iPad and cry out in the news how iPad babies are so bad. Who’s given them the damn iPad?

BolexForSoup,
@BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

I think you’ve got some valid points but you’re completely ignoring how countless corporations have invested collectively probably trillions of dollars over decades into how to best reach and sink their talons into us.

Minecraft may be an “accidentally addicting” product (though I’d somewhat dispute it), but iPads sure aren’t just addictive by accident. No tablet is. They’re designed to be from the ground up, like every major social media app and then some.

Parents need to parent, but to act like any of us are on an equal footing with the Facebooks of the world is to completely misunderstand the imbalance of power here.

EddyNottingham,

Concerning Minecraft, as I know the game it seems fine, playing Java on a survival server I run for friends.

However, I wonder what the experience is for the other millions of players, on Bedrock, highly popular monetized servers, etc.

What crappy casino-like techniques are used to monetize Minecraft in those contexts? I really don’t know as I’m in my own Minecraft bubble, but I’m sure there are lots of examples as it’s such a monumentally large game.

sharkfucker420,
@sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml avatar

Hyper monetized minecraft servers can be reeeeeeally bad but i wouldn’t say the offline play is designed to be addicting in the way that most modern AAA games are

BolexForSoup,
@BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

Fine tuning a gameplay loop so people keep playing (and maybe spending money) isn’t as far from designing something to be addicting as most people would like to think. Hence why gaming and gambling addiction dovetail so well.

LemmyKnowsBest,

What is UPS besides United Postal Service?

My best contextual guess, me having no tech background, is something like Universal Protocol Server? I dunno

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

UPS is never United Postal Service. You might have meant UPS as United Parcel Service, or you might have mistaken USPS (United States Postal Service).

In this context they are using UPS as Uninterruptable Power Supply.

LemmyKnowsBest,

Ah! Yes thank you for straightening me out on all those details there.

YarHarSuperstar,
@YarHarSuperstar@lemmy.world avatar

Username suspiciously relevant

XTL,

Uninterruptible power supply is the common use.

digdilem,

I think there’s a core difference between loot boxes, which is out and out gambling, and gameplay. Both can be addictive, but they have very different consequences.

Gameplay addiction steals your time and maybe your social life, but that’s it.

Gambling addiction also steals your money. And when that’s gone, drives you to extremes trying to find more.

dan1101,

I know a kid that is really into multiplayer Minecraft on Xbox and he is always after his parents for more Xbox cards so he can buy different skins and texture packs. Servers like Cubecraft and The Hive must be making a lot of money.

Pyr_Pressure,
@Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca avatar

The thing about older games and Minecraft being addictive is that it’s sort of fine, because they don’t benefit financially from it so obviously it was unintentional and just because of the entertainment.

It becomes a problem with these new games when they are subscription based or have lots of microtransactions because the more addictive the game, the more money the company makes.

Pyr_Pressure, do gaming w You can't sue us for making games 'too entertaining,' say major game developers in response to addiction lawsuits
@Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca avatar

There’s a difference between addictive and entertaining.

I wouldn’t call nicotine entertaining.

Opening lootboxes you paid $5 each for is not entertaining.

paultimate14, do gaming w You can't sue us for making games 'too entertaining,' say major game developers in response to addiction lawsuits

For a long time I’ve argued that there needs to be stronger language differences between physiological addiction and psychological addiction, especially in non-academic discourse. Academic papers usually define their terms pretty well, and often use terms like “habit forming” or “dependency” instead of addiction.

A lot of work has been done to remove the stigma of addiction to shift the blame from the individual to the product, and I have no objections at all to that for physiological addiction. Nicotine, alcohol, opioids, etc.

The problem is that zealots have co-opted that model to try to ban anything they don’t want other people to be able to enjoy. Comic books, television, videogames, marijuana, pornography- all of these have had the word “addiction” attached in news media without solid scientific evidence of physiological addiction. At the same time, you can find case studies of individuals with mental health disorders who get addicted to literally anything… I’m not saying there are not individuals who don’t have problems with these things, but a lot of the effort into stigmatizing and restricting these seems to have ulterior motives. It’s parents who don’t want to teach their children about responsibility and discipline. It’s religious zealots trying to push their worldviews on others. It’s large corporations trying to gain market share by attacking competing industries. In some cases like “sex addiction” it’s used to try to excuse or justify criminal behavior and portray abusers as victims. It’s notable that efforts usually go to just banning and shaming these things rather than helping the alleged “victims”. At the same time, efforts at harm reduction for physiological addiction seems to be constantly undermined.

With all of that being said, there is a separate issue that applies to this case- consumer protection. History has clearly demonstrated that without regulation and enforcement, corporations will engage in all manner of activity to screw over every stakeholder (consumers, vendors, employees, lenders, etc) in order to enrich ownership.

Looking at videogames in particular, there are definitely marketing practices and pricing structures that need to be banned. I just hate this idea that “videogames = bad” when the real issue is corporate greed, and a lot of these issues apply to other industries too.

xkforce,

Loot boxes (for real money directly or indirectly) arent video games and those absolutely fucking should be banned.

grrgyle,

I think they are banned in the EU?

MeetInPotatoes,

In counseling, we call those process addictions. Internet gaming, sexual addictions, gambling, shopping etc. are all process addictions. Psychological addiction isn’t precise enough as any chemical addiction could have a strong psychological component as well, and almost always does because addictions create habits of use and habits are difficult to break. Also, for instance, we might have to ditch our drinking buddies when we have alcoholism because being around them triggers our urge to drink psychologically.

hexadence, do gaming w So, looks like Putin's ordered the Russian government to 'consider the issue of organising' domestic versions of the Steam Deck, SteamOS, and Steam itself (with a side order of Steam Machines)
@hexadence@lemmy.world avatar

Sounds ambitious. Games are an important part of modern culture. Recognizing that is a responsible action. On the other hand, haters will have more than just Epic Games to be angry at, so it is a win for everyone.

AstralPath, do gaming w Phil Spencer blames capitalism for games industry woes: 'I don't get [the] luxury of not having to run a profitable growing business'

Nobody forced this guy to be a soulless capitalist. He chose his career path. Oh woe is you, Phil. Must be so hard for you. /s

KingThrillgore,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

He’s speaking for the rest of the industry that also makes product that tangentally pays his bills. Not all assholes have to be brazen 24/7.

Nakoichi, do gaming w Phil Spencer blames capitalism for games industry woes: 'I don't get [the] luxury of not having to run a profitable growing business'
@Nakoichi@hexbear.net avatar

Comments are surprisingly good

Omega_Haxors,

Lemmy is proof of what reddit would be without mass censorship and astroturf.

Omega_Haxors, do gaming w You can't sue us for making games 'too entertaining,' say major game developers in response to addiction lawsuits

That argument doesn’t fly for companies that employ psychologists specifically to make their games as unhealthy as possible.

parpol, do gaming w You can't sue us for making games 'too entertaining,' say major game developers in response to addiction lawsuits

deleted_by_author

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  • pearsaltchocolatebar,

    It’s not a gaming addition that’s the problem, it’s that many of these games basically follow the same playbook that casinos do. They’re gambling disguised as a video game.

    Silverseren,

    It would help if the lawsuit was actually focused on lootboxes, microtransactions, and the like as harmful gambling.

    But it doesn't. The lawsuit claims video games themselves being good creates an addiction.

    pearsaltchocolatebar,

    Well that’s fucking stupid

    parpol,

    deleted_by_author

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  • pearsaltchocolatebar,

    You can get addicted to literally anything, but that has more to do with your personality than the vice. I knew a guy who was addicted to advil. Didn’t have chronic pain or anything, but couldn’t stop taking it.

    MossyFeathers,
    @MossyFeathers@pawb.social avatar

    I mean, there kinda is. Gambling addiction is a fairly well known phenomenon and while the vast majority of games aren’t purely gambling, many of them do share mechanics with gambling games. One could argue that if a game shares too many mechanics normally seen in gambling and are associated with addiction, then gambling addiction could apply.

    Another thing to note is that, if I understand correctly, the modern professional definitions of “addiction” aren’t exclusive to substance abuse but include anything that can cause someone to repetitively engage in a particular behavior despite any negative effects it may have. You could argue that if someone is engaging in gaming to the detriment of their own lives, then they’re addicted. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the developers fault though, people can get addicted to just about any system that triggers some kind of reward in the brain.

    However, to add onto the previous statement, it is fairly well documented that some games (World of Warcraft is an infamous example) are specifically designed to keep players engaged for as long as possible without any regard for the player’s wellbeing. If a game has a lot of systems that are designed to keep the player hooked for as long as possible then it’s reasonable to argue that the game is designed to be addictive. The catch is that you’d likely have to prove that the developers were being intentionally malicious.

    Silverseren,

    So, what exactly does Minecraft (one of the primary games mentioned in the lawsuit) do to cause this? Because that seems like a major outlier compared to the other listed games.

    MossyFeathers,
    @MossyFeathers@pawb.social avatar

    I was speaking in a general sense. You’re right that it seems like an outlier, but it’s also possible they were playing on custom servers which could implement addictive mechanics like lootboxes. However, at the same time, it’s not the fault of Minecraft’s devs if a custom server has lootboxes. Again though, I was speaking in a general sense because I was replying to someone saying that gaming addiction is unproven boomer shit; and not about this specific case.

    MrFunnyMoustache, do games w Power-mad modder puts Sonic the Hedgehog at the heart of the most tedious game ever made, so you can speed boost to the end in 3 straight hours instead of 8.

    deleted_by_author

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  • jeze64,
    @jeze64@midwest.social avatar

    You’re asking questions you donut want the answer to.

    BirdEnjoyer,

    I heard he only hits the speed of sound when he's rollin' around.

    But part of the legacy of Desert Bus is that it was a big charity series that kind of set the stage for GDQ later in gaming history. A sort of virtual road trip.
    So a lot of people have nostalgia for it.

    SchmidtGenetics,

    Get a group of friends and drink while doing it?

    Nothing interesting happens at a mall, pub, but people still enjoy those solo with friends.

    setsneedtofeed,
    @setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world avatar

    Desert Bus was released as a protest game. In the 90s video games were demonized for being nothing more than violence simulators. Penn & Teller took that as a challenge and had some developers make the most non-violent game they could think of.

    It was made as a novelty. The people who made it knew it was boring, that’s the joke. The main group that still actually plays it is a charity group who suffers through it while getting donations for Child’s Play charity.

    cafuneandchill,

    Vinesauce Joel’s playthrough of it is also very iconic

    trigonated,

    Joel also has a real-time flight from Sweden to Brazil in Flight Simulator that’s very entertaining despite being several hours long.

    cafuneandchill,

    Oh yeah, I remember that

    squid_slime, do gaming w Phil Spencer blames capitalism for games industry woes: 'I don't get [the] luxury of not having to run a profitable growing business'
    @squid_slime@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m glad he can see the issue but then part way through the interview he loses it, and jumps to feeding the capitalist system

    saltesc,
    johannesvanderwhales, do games w 'The gold rush is over:' Slay the Spire and Darkest Dungeon devs say that big Game Pass and Epic exclusive deals have dried up for indie devs

    I really wonder how the palworld devs feel about being gamepass day 1. I have no idea what the payouts look like for them. It probably got a lot more people to try their game, but would they have done better selling it only on steam? They probably weren’t in a position to negotiate a very favorable contract with Microsoft.

    djsoren19,

    I think that’s looking at the deal in hindsight. Palworld had just as good a chance at flopping completely as hitting #1 worldwide, I imagine they were grateful for the opportunity to have some guaranteed income at the time.

    _sideffect,

    Some? Didn’t they make over 400m?

    JowlesMcGee,
    @JowlesMcGee@kbin.social avatar

    I think they meant guaranteed income prior to selling the game, since they had no way of knowing how successful (if at all) the game was going to be once released.

    _sideffect,

    Ah, makes sense

    sonovebitch,

    Their previous game Craftopia was also on GamePass and somewhat successful. They probably had some leverage for negotiations.

    sinceasdf,

    Because craftopia and palworld have a social aspect getting a big seed of players who only played it because it was free (for them) was I think a catalyst in making palworld blow up like it did. There are too many games out there for people to look through so it probably helps get word out effectively to sell out cheap for a big initial audience like gamepass when you’re a small dev. I only knew of craftopia or palworld because of gamepass at least

    The flip side is Microsoft is 100% giving the above as a sales pitch to devs why they should put their game on gamepass for peanuts (paid in exposure!). That’s probably some of what drives the shittier deal devs get now

    Etterra, do gaming w Phil Spencer blames capitalism for games industry woes: 'I don't get [the] luxury of not having to run a profitable growing business'

    Cry more rich boy, your tears are delicious.

    Talaraine, do gaming w Phil Spencer blames capitalism for games industry woes: 'I don't get [the] luxury of not having to run a profitable growing business'

    I dunno, maybe stop going public and just sell a decent game?

    eskimofry, do gaming w Phil Spencer blames capitalism for games industry woes: 'I don't get [the] luxury of not having to run a profitable growing business'

    Sounds like skill issue.

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