gamingonlinux.com

recursive_recursion, do games w itch is hosting another Queer Halloween Stories Bundle for 2024
@recursive_recursion@lemmy.ca avatar
mesamunefire,

Thanks, added to the description.

recursive_recursion,
@recursive_recursion@lemmy.ca avatar

👍🌻

gofsckyourself,

To add to this, the owner of this site, gamingonlinux, was a mod on the !linux_gaming community until they were caught abusing their moderator powers. Then they deleted their account and complained on mastodon that it’s stupid design that mod logs are public. [Screenshot]

Cris16228, do games w itch is hosting another Queer Halloween Stories Bundle for 2024

Genuine question: is it worth?

MarcomachtKuchen, do games w Save & Sound is a big live show celebrating music in gaming coming in November

Seems like a smaller event but I’m looking forward to hear more indies.

Retro_unlimited, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

That’s awesome! GTA V just screwed everyone on Linux! What a rug pull.

conciselyverbose,

Adding kernel malware after the fact should entitle every single owner who requests one to a full refund no matter how long has passed.

TipRing,

Full agree. I do want some kind of policy for games that introduce anti-cheat both during early access and after release. Bricking a game you paid for should offer some sort of recourse.

ILikeBoobies,

That should be any update if you can’t play the previous one

CaptDust,

I’d really like Valve to take an official policy on post-release changes that break games, but for what it’s worth they have not given me any hassle with refunds in these scenarios.

nekusoul,
@nekusoul@lemmy.nekusoul.de avatar

Yup. If it’s important enough that devs now have to add a disclaimer on the store page, surely devs shouldn’t be allowed to circumvent that by adding it later. Since SteamDeck customers are affected by this the most, it’s weird that this isn’t already a rule, particularly for games that are SteamDeck verified.

Vilian,

Valve was giving refund when riot added the anticheat

xep,

Are there Riot games on Steam?

DragonOracleIX,

They publish their single player games to steam. Don’t know about any of their multiplayer ones though.

xep,

I believe those are games made by other studios with the League IP and published by Riot. AFAIK there's no reason for them to have anticheat.

pressanykeynow,

I don’t think that’s fair. I “own” GTA5 and don’t really care for the last… 8 years? what they add. I had the full content of my purchase. Why should I be able to gain money for this?

conciselyverbose,

Don’t be pieces of shit and you won’t owe refunds.

In a just world people would be going to prison for it.

PM_Your_Nudes_Please,

That’s exactly what Valve did. The automated refund system wasn’t available, but you could request a manual review and cite the added anti cheat; Valve was refunding those who did so.

Nytixus, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

Meanwhile at Epic...

"Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

pivot_root,

That’s quite a generous interpretation. If we’re being real about it, it’s going to be another “you assholes” email from Timmy.

TommySoda, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

I feel like they’re doing this because they are going so hard with steam deck. Regardless, good on Valve for doing this.

corroded, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

Why is kernel-level anti-cheat even a thing?

If I was trying to prevent cheating, I’d hash the relevant game files, encrypt the values, and hard-code them into the executable. Then when the game is launched, calculated the hash of the existing files and compare to the saved values.

What is gained by running anti-cheat in kernel mode? I only play single-player games, so I assume I’m missing something.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

They can prevent you from running cheats that other anti-cheats can’t detect. For instance, they could modify the value in memory so that your calculated hash always succeeds even when it’s modified. This doesn’t stop cheating though; it just means cheaters have to use cheat hardware that exists at a layer that even kernel anti-cheat can’t detect.

Maalus,

And then a game gets updated so the hashes don’t match and uh oh, everything is fucked. Oh, but we can change the hashes of the files in the executable! Yeah, so can they. People modding shit into the executable is basically a given. Let alone the fact that you’d need to sit through a steam “validation of files” length of time every time you’d need to launch a game (because validation works exactly as you have described).

What is gained is that it has access to more information. Some cheats use an entirely different program / process that reads memory and outputs info that is available to the game but hidden from the player. Like a client needs to know where a person on the other team is to be able to draw their model. So you read that, you put a little box over where they are, and bang you have wallhacks.

joyjoy,

I think the popular thing now is to mod your mouse so it clicks on the enemy player’s head.

kevindqc,

Because there are kernel-level cheats

What you proposed can very easily be bypassed without even needing kernel access by just editing the executable code that checks hashes to always return true

msage,

Boo freaking hoo.

It’s not like there are so many other ways to cheat, actually used in many games with anticheats.

We should all stop pretending it’s necessary to put malware into your computer just so some company can claim they have no cheaters, which is never even true.

xep,

The point of anti-cheat is to create a substantial barrier for cheating. If you have to go the extra mile to run an external hardware cheat so as to be "undetected" then surely this means the anti-cheat is working. If it were as ineffective as you are imply, cheaters would be cheating on their main accounts.

sp3tr4l,

… Buuut you can still defeat Kernel level Anti Cheats.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=RwzIq04vd0M&t=2s&pp=2AECkAI…

Which means that you still have to end up relying on reviewing a player’s performance and actions as recorded by the game servers statistically via complex statistical algorithms or machine learning to detect impossibly abnormal activity.

… Which is what VAC has been doing, without kernel level, for over a decade.

All that is gained from pushing AC to the kernel level is you ruin the privacy and system stability of everyone using it.

You don’t actually stop cheating.

It is not possible to have a 100% full proof anti cheat system.

There will always be new, cleverer exploitation methods, just as there are with literally all other kinds of computer software, which all have new exploits that are detected and triaged basically every day.

But you do have a choice between using an anti cheat method that is insanely invasive and potentially dangerous to all your users, and one that is not.

SkavarSharraddas,

Modern cheats for multiplayer games don't modify local files (or attribute values in memory), since the server validates everything anyway. They're about giving you information that's available but not shown in the game (like see-through walls, or exact skill ranges), or manipulate input (dodge enemy damage, easy combos). Those cheat can run in kernel mode (or at least evade detection from user mode), so the anti-cheat needs kernel mode to be more effective.

ysjet,

since the server validates everything anyway

Oh you sweet summer child.

The server doesn’t validate shit, because that takes up CPU cycles on THEIR hardware, which costs them money. A huge part of kernel level anticheat is forcing YOU to pay the cost for anticheat, so they can squeeze a few more pennies out of it. And if your computer gets owned because they installed insecure, buggy malware on your system…? Well, they’ll just deny. After all, it’s kernel-level, how are YOU going to prove anything?

Katana314,

If server validation was still a common practice (as it should be) then cheats wouldn’t come in the form of speed hacks, teleportation hacks, or invincibility. The traditional thing in CS that was hard to prevent is aimhacks and wallhacks. I respect that those are hard to prevent, but they can be much less impactful in modern hero shooters.

catloaf,

You don’t need to modify the files to modify data in memory.

JusticeForPorygon, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages
@JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world avatar

Common valve W

sp3tr4l, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

However, it’s only being forced for kernel-level anti-cheat. If it’s only client-side or server-side, it’s optional, but Valve say “we generally think that any game that makes use of anti-cheat technology would benefit from letting players know”.

I will always love Valve for their ability to use corpospeak against corpos.

Your game has anti-cheat?

Wonderful!

I’m sure that always only results in an improved experience for all gamers, lets let them all know!

=D

Joeffect, (edited )

How does vac play into all of this then …

Edit: I was talking about them labeling vac games as being anti cheat… And wondering if they were going to pull some double standard… I didn’t know they label them already and still don’t know if they do…

graff,

It doesn’t run at the kernel level?

sp3tr4l,

VAC is not kernel level, because surprise you don’t actually need kernel level to do anti cheat well.

VAC games would just get the standard AC message banner, not the scary yellow kernel level warning banner.

… I am pretty sure VAC games have indicated on their store page that they use VAC for well over a decade.

lastweakness,

you don’t actually need kernel level to do anti cheat well.

I’m sure you’re right, but VAC is one of the worst examples for that… I think whatever Blizzard does with Overwatch 2 is a better example.

sp3tr4l,

I would love to see any kind of documentation that can somehow prove OW2’s AC is better than VAC, something that isn’t based on vibes or immediacy bias.

lastweakness,

I sure wish there was some empirical study regarding the same too. I’m very much going by anecdotal evidence from myself and others right now

sp3tr4l,

So … your previous assertion that OW2’s AC is superior to VAC was in fact just based on vibes.

Anti Cheat developers typically do not like to explain how exactly they work, how effective they actually are.

Their data is proprietary, trade secrets.

There will almost certainly never be a way to actually conduct the empirical study you wish for, save for (ironically) someone hacking into the corporate servers of a bunch of different anti cheat developers to grab their own internal metrics.

But that should be obvious to anyone with basic knowledge of how Anti Cheats work, both technically and as a business.

… None of that matters to you though, you have completely vibes based anecdotes that you confidently state as fact.

Please stop doing that.

When someone has no clue what they’re talking about, but confidently makes a claim about a situation because it feels right, this is typically called misinformation.

lastweakness,

I mean, anybody could verify it by spending a few hours each on the respective games… But yes, any empirical data would be nice. For example, a study on the amount of blatant hackers found on lobbies joined in comparable ranks. Anyway, this isn’t exactly misinformation to anybody who has played both games at any decent rank. It’s unproved but immediately discernible information. Take that how you will, i don’t really intend to argue about this here. This kind of pointless argument is the worst thing about Lemmy.

sp3tr4l,

I mean, anybody could verify it by spending a few hours each on the respective games… But yes, any empirical data would be nice.

No, thats an anecdotal experience, and all it would tell you is the players’ perception of how prevalent cheating is… not how prevalent it actually is, not how effective an anti cheat system is at blocking cheaters.

But yes, any empirical data would be nice. For example, a study on the amount of blatant hackers found on lobbies joined in comparable ranks

“It would be great if there was any valid data/research to back up or disprove that thing I said earlier, but there isn’t, therefore I am completely justified in saying whatever as I want and acting as if its indisputable!”

Anyway, this isn’t exactly misinformation to anybody who has played both games at any decent rank. It’s unproved but immediately discernible information.

Again, no.

You made a claim that a particular anti cheat system is better than another.

You keep saying that ‘oh anyone can just tell’.

No.

What you are describing is again, at best, player perceptions of cheating prevalence.

The logic you are using is exactly the same logic that people who believe in astrology or woo woo nonsense medical treatments use to justify their efficacy.

… You have nothing but vibes and anecdotes, which you admit are unproved and have no basis in fact, beyond ‘i think this is obvious’.

You’re just bullshitting.

It is indeed pointless to attempt to get a bullshitter to admit they are bullshitting, when they’ve already backpedalled by moving goal posts, dismissing the importance of the discussion after being called out for making a specific claim which they can’t back up.

You could just admit that ah well shit yeah, I guess I don’t have any actual valid reasoning or data to back up my claim, but nope you keep trucking on, doing everything you can to talk around that point instead of addressing it.

Gigasser,

I mean…bro was just giving an opinion man. He didn’t even really say that much originally. I think claiming the “superiority” of something online alot of the times is vibes based. That ain’t necessarily bad though. Are people not allowed to give more generalized or vague opinions?

django, do gaming w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages
@django@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

This will make filtering for games, which might run on linux much easier.

Chozo, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

Probably a pessimistic take, but I don't expect this to have any discernable impact on sales, or any other effects that would discourage publishers from these practices. The average user doesn't care about or understand how these things work; they'll see an anti-cheat warning on the store page and think "Okay, tell the colonel I'll be on my best behavior then" and continue to buy the game.

spankmonkey,

It will benefit those that care and won’t negatively impact the experience for those that don’t.

Win, win.

Woodstock, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

Can someone explain like I’m stupid on kernel level anti cheat and why I should watch out for it? Not a dig at all, a genuine question!

ArchRecord, (edited )

To put it very simply, the ‘kernel’ has significant control over your OS as it essentially runs above everything else in terms of system privileges.

It can (but not always) run at startup, so this means if you install a game with kernel-level anticheat, the moment your system turns on, the game’s publisher can have software running on your system that can restrict the installation of a particular driver, stop certain software from running, or, even insidiously spy on your system’s activity if they wished to. (and reverse-engineering the code to figure out if they are spying on you is a felony because of DRM-related laws)

It basically means trusting every single game publisher with kernel-level anticheat in their games to have a full view into your system, and the ability to effectively control it, without any legal recourse or transparency, all to try (and usually fail) to stop cheating in games.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

And it’s worth noting that trusting the game developer isn’t really enough. Far too many of them have been hacked, so who’s to say it’s always your favorite game developer behind the wheel?

sp3tr4l,

Or, even better, when you let a whole bunch of devs have acces to the kernel…

sometimes they just accidentally fuck up and push a bad update, unintentionally.

This is how CrowdStrike managed to Y2K an absurd number of enterprise computers fairly recently.

Its also why its … you know, generally bad practice to have your kernel just open to fucking whoever instead of having it be locked down and rigorously tested.

Funnily enough, MSFT now appears to be shifting toward offering much less direct access to its kernel to 3rd party software devs.

barlescharkley,

More importantly, if traditional anticheat has a bug, your game dies. Oh no.

If kernel level anticheat has a bug, your computer blue screens (that’s specifically what the blue screen is: a bug in the kernel, not just an ordinary bug that the system can recover from). Much worse. Sure hope that bug only crashes your computer when the game is running and not just whenever, because remember a kernel-level program can be running the moment your computer boots as above poster said

Woodstock,

Thank you! Really clear and appreciate you taking the time to explain!

FeelzGoodMan420,

Not all anti cheats run at startup. Some only run when you play a game. I think vanguard for valorant ran all the time at first and people were pissed. Meanwhile easy anti cheat runs only with a game. So it depends. It all sucks though.

ArchRecord,

That’s definitely true, I probably should have been a little more clear in my response, specifying that it can run at startup, but doesn’t always do so.

I’ll edit my comment so nobody gets the wrong idea. Thanks for pointing that out!

Katana314,

It’s not just trust of the game developer. I honestly believe most of them just want to put out profitable games. It’s trust that a hacker won’t ever learn how to sign their code in a way that causes it to be respected as part of the game’s code instructions.

There was some old article about how a black hat found a vulnerability in a signed virtual driver used by Genshin Impact. So, they deployed their whole infection package together with that plain driver to computers that had never been used for video games at all; and because Microsoft chose to trust that driver, it worked.

I wish I could find an article on it, since a paraphrased summary isn’t a great source. This is coming from memory.

catloaf,

It’s trust that a hacker won’t ever learn how to sign their code in a way that causes it to be respected as part of the game’s code instructions.

That’s not an accurate description of the exploit you describe. It sounds like the attacker bundled a signed and trusted but known vulnerable version of the module, then used a known exploit in that module to run their own unsigned, untrusted code with high privileges.

This can be resolved by marking that signature as untrusted, but that requires the user to pull an update, and we all know how much people hate updating their PC.

yamanii,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

Easy, a bug in battle eye forced me to reinstall windows, this kernel access has to go.

HK65,

Making it super simple, it runs with full access on your machine, always. It can fuck anything up, and see everything. It can get your browser history, banking details or private messages you enter, activate your webcam or mic without you knowing, or brick your computer even.

And you can’t even check what it’s really doing on your computer because it’s a crime under US law.

Finally, it can get hacked and other people than the creator can do all these to your computer as well,as it already happened once.

scarilog,

And you can’t even check what it’s really doing on your computer because it’s a crime under US law.

Is this specifically for kernel level anticheat? Because this isn’t a thing for software in general right??

Miaou,

If anything reverse engineering is more permissible in the USA than many other places, IIRC

HK65,

Not if you’re running afoul of the DMCA.

HK65,

It’s a thing for any measure said to enforce copyright under the DMCA.

So it’s a thing for most proprietary software.

loboaureo,

Also, the most games that don’t work in linux is for this reason (and steamdeck works in linux)

mrvictory1,

Imagine a game having higher privileges than what you get with “Run as administrator”

Riccosuave, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages
@Riccosuave@lemmy.world avatar

Not to be annoying, but can someone please ELI5 how kernel level anti-cheat software actually works, or link good resources where I can read about it.

scoobford,

Eli5: your PC has different access levels a program can run at. This prevents a malicious or badly coded program from completely fucking your computer. Kernel level anti cheat runs at the lowest level access that exists under windows. It can do basically whatever it wants to your PC, and if a backdoor is coded in (happens way more than you’d think), it gives malware basically total access to your PC.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar
conciselyverbose,

It runs with higher priveleges than you have and can see anything that happens on your computer.

It also creates a giant additional attack vector.

hal_5700X, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

Nice.

gofsckyourself, do games w Steam games will now need to fully disclose kernel-level anti-cheat on store pages

FYI - the owner of this site, gamingonlinux, was a mod on the !linux_gaming community until they were caught abusing their moderator powers. Then they deleted their account and complained on mastodon that it’s stupid design that mod logs are public. [Screenshot]

Instead, here’s a link to the official post steamcommunity.com/groups/…/4547038620960934857

yamanii,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

4 likes on him complaining that modlogs being public is something bad, cowards that only want to be shitty in the shadows.

PyroNeurosis,

I’m still fairly new. Where do I go for modlog drama?

Redjard,
@Redjard@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

There is a sub for sanity checking mod actions, aita-style.
If you keep in mind it is for active unconfirmed situations, and that votes there are not meant to mark the cases of mod abuse, I think it can fill that niche.

!yepowertrippinbastards

Jtee,
@Jtee@lemmy.world avatar

Wow, mad because you can be held accountable. That’s sad.

Thanks for the steam link!

finitebanjo,

I was going to ask why the thumbnail on this post is a hexagon shaped bear, but your comment explains it well enough.

Blisterexe,

the thumbnail is a hexagon bear because it’s the logo for easyanticheat, the most recogniseable anticheat

finitebanjo,

Well thats somewhat unnerving.

fsxylo,

You will love the spyware bear.

Voyajer,
@Voyajer@lemmy.world avatar

He used to relentlessly spam the /r/linux_gaming subreddit and argue with people there too until he deleted his reddit account lol

mrvictory1,

He’s still on Reddit

Voyajer,
@Voyajer@lemmy.world avatar

He would make another account account

mrvictory1,

Yes he said he made an alt but I think his main is still active? Not sure.

NuXCOM_90Percent,

I really don’t see a need to drag community drama everywhere. GoL is one of the biggest aggregator blogs out there for… linux gaming. Whether we should prioritize original sources over aggregators is a different discussion.

But yeah. Liam is great for news aggregating but he is 100% the stereotypical linux gamer and has a long history of starting random shit. Still annoyed by how fast he got everyone to shit on the Duckstation devs because they didn’t want to be exploited.

Sunny,

Being a big(“great”) news aggregator doesn’t excuse bad behavior.

NuXCOM_90Percent, (edited )

Are you the lemmy cops? Is it your responsibility to chase any link to someone’s website across every instance and make sure people know they are a bit of a jackass?

If you think GoL should be a banned source, take it up with the various moderators. If you think only primary sources should be allowed (which I actually agree with), that is also a discussion to be had.

But rushing in to berate people for linking to one of the most popular news aggregators for a story that people would be interested in because you don’t like the guy who owns that site? All you are doing is discouraging people from making posts in the future.


Which is the problem with dragging community/subreddit drama everywhere you go. It just makes the site a much more hostile place for everyone. And we really aren’t big enough to be doing that.

Sunny,

🚨 🚨 🚨 FREEZE! STOP RIGHT THERE!! 🚨 🚨 🚨

As the official lemmy police I am arresting you for defending a mad lad caught abusing powers. You do not have to say anything. But, it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.

Jokes aside… I do think people should be allowed to post opinions an discuss other peoples behavior. Gol dude was caught abusing his powers, which is a disgusting thing to do, personally don’t mind him being called out for that in a post here and there. It’s not an attack on the poster, it’s a reminder to folks who the guy really is.

I’m all for the truth, no matter who it is.

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