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Jumi, do games w Microsoft Confirms Windows 11 Update Kills Star Wars Outlaws, Assassin's Creed Valhalla, and Other Ubisoft Games
moody, do games w Elden Ring Nightreign’s First Network Test Plagued by Server Issues, FromSoftware Issues Apology

Network test where nobody can manage to queue with other people :/

A network test showing that the testing was required.

If you sign up for a network test, you have to be expecting issues like this.

RightHandOfIkaros, do games w Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 2 Dev Says Big Budget Games Are Failing in Part Because Teams Are Over-Scoping Their Projects

And development teams are too big. No game should realistically be having 500+ people working on it. That’s too many people, too big a ship to steer fast enough for the changes that happen in game development. Even the biggest games have done very well with teams of 250 or less, including all staff that work on the game, how about development studios pay attention to that?

lepinkainen,

People expect all games to be multiplayer with online live ops and events and a steady flow of new content.

That’s why you need to have a 500 person team. Someone needs to be designing and coding the valentine’s event for 2025 right now

Katana314,

I’ve heard this often, but most of the games I see people consume live updates for weren’t initially planned to get such constant updates.

Ex: Dead by Daylight. Released as dumb party horror game with low shelf life. Now on its 8th plus year. Fortnite: Epic’s base building game that pivoted to follow the battle royale trend, then ten other trends. DOTA 2: First released as a Warcraft map. GTA V: First released as a singleplayer game before tons of expansion went into online. Same with Minecraft.

It just doesn’t make sense to pour $500M into something before everyone agrees it’s a fun idea. There’s obviously nothing gained in planning out the “constant content cycle” before a game’s first public release.

dragonfucker,

Drag can think of one counterexample: Warframe. But Warframe is also 100% free to play and free to participate in every content update and event. And Warframe is developed by an indie team from Fake London who started the game with 120 employees.

MrScottyTay,

Warframe feels just as riddled though with all of its different kinds of currencies and crafting mechanics. It may not have an egregious mtx model but the game loop around it still feels like it’s meant to. I much more enjoyed the game in beta when it was simpler. I go on it now and I haven’t got a fucking clue what to do, fumble around for an hour and just decide to play something else instead.

dragonfucker,

Warframe is much more fun with friends. Friends will tell you that you don’t have to bother with all the currencies. You can just do the story missions.

MrScottyTay,

That’s the thing, had no idea there were specific story missions or where to do them

dragonfucker, (edited )

Oh, good news for you. They just released an update two days ago that separates the quests in the codex into story, side, and warframe quests. DE listened to player feedback and fixed the problem. Now you go to the codex terminal, you click on story quests, and it tells you what to do next.

MrScottyTay,

That’s good to know

Varyag,

Companies want all games to be multiplayer with online live ops and events and a steady flow of microtransactions money.

Badeendje,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

Who is these people that want this? And even if they do. Creating a good game does not need 500 people. And if you want to provide content after setup several small parallel teams to make cosmetics and stuff.

But the whole live service is something the companies want. So they can keep monetizing it and turn if off once a new iteration is done.

lepinkainen,

Check out the leaks from the Sony/Microsoft trial

There are literally tens of millions of people who ONLY use their PS5 for CoD - a live service multiplayer game.

A whole generation of people have literally never played a single player game and don’t know how to.

Badeendje,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

It’s like they exist in an alternate reality. But then I’m fine with that too. If there is a market for that… just a shame that the hunt for this audience eats up everything else.

intensely_human,

Another way to look at it is that the multiplayer market is the only pool of money big enough to support games at that level.

Maybe if single player gamers would be accepting of feature scopes from 10-15 years ago, there’d be a stable niche for single player games.

I’m in my 40s and only get enjoyment from multiplayer games. Single player just dries up for me in terms of dopamine release.

When I was in my 20s I was unsocial, heavily autistic, couldn’t stand multiplayer because I didn’t control the variables.

Basically, my wallet and my brain followed a coupled pair of paths. The version of me with more money has more need for other people in my games.

I have more tolerance for other people. But also I’m more lonely in life. Used to be, games were a refuge from the other people I was constantly surrounded by in school, college, roommate situations. I could just go be alone and have fun, and I needed to be alone.

And that was when I was broke.

Now, I have more money, and I crave social contact. I live alone, don’t have constant social overwhelm any longer. Games aren’t my refuge of solitude any more. Now they’re a way to feel other people without having to go out my front door.

I’m not made of money, but I can afford games now.

Probably a connection there.

My main thesis though is just that maybe the world of multiplayer gaming just has more money in it period. Maybe it’s only the world of multiplayer gaming that can actually support AAA games’ budgets.

15 years ago, no game had a budget with the same orders of magnitude we see these days. Also, 15 years ago the oldest gamer demographics were 15 years younger.

Which brings me back to my original point: maybe it’s not that the multiplayer games are somehow nullifying the market for AAA single player games; maybe it’s just that no such market ever existed. That the multiplayer market is a new market that didn’t exist 15 years ago, not a transformation of an existing market.

For me at least the correlation is that me having this kind of gaming budget is correlated with me having overall social isolation more than overall social overwhelm like I did in my twenties.

Flamekebab,
@Flamekebab@piefed.social avatar

To quote Bernard Black: "Well expect away!"

Moah,
@Moah@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I once worked on a dance game that officially had a team of 400

Echo5,

How did that go

echodot,

I’ve worked on a team of 12 at one point and I remember that being a pain to organize. Not that I was the one doing the organization mind you but it just seemed like it was a nightmare.

That_Devil_Girl, do games w Avatar: The Last Airbender Is Getting a AAA RPG With Saber Interactive and Paramount Game Studios - EXCLUSIVE
@That_Devil_Girl@lemmy.ml avatar

I see triple A, and red flags go up. Didn’t Bethesda brag about being a triple A gaming company right before crapping out Starfield?

ours,

Or Ubisoft with a AAAA.

TonyTonyChopper,
@TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz avatar

that’s the sound I make every time I have to boot up the Ubisoft launcher

Tarogar, do games w PS5 Homescreen Now Replaces Unique Video Game Art With Annoying Ads You Can’t Turn Off

Crazy stuff… Ads everywhere. Makes my choice to not buy any console this generation seem a lot better. It saved me money and I don’t get ads forced on me. I call that a win win.

PunchingWood,

I still enjoy my PS5 for a few exclusives I play on it. But damn I’m getting very much triggered to just go back to exclusively PC gaming.

mesamunefire,

Is steam deck a console? From this gen?

Either way it’s pretty good. You don’t even need to run their os if you don’t want to.

rtxn,

At this point, the distinction between console and PC comes down to the corporate side. The PS4 and PS5 operating systems are based on a BSD (probably FreeBSD but not sure), and are capable of running a desktop OS (as long as hackers find a way to bypass Sony’s locked-down firmware). XBox One and Series use a Windows-based OS, also locked down by Microsoft to only run the applications they want.

Everything about the Steam Deck is designed with gaming in mind, but in terms of capabilities, it’s no different from a PC. You could hook it up to a USB-C dock and use it for work. I’d sooner call it a handheld PC than a console.

mesamunefire,

That’s neat! I knew about the bsd origins but I didn’t know they allow other oses now.

I have not ironically used the steam deck for amateur satellite tracking before. Its more suited for that purpose than a laptop in the field lol.

rtxn,

they allow other oses now

They don’t. It’s the same category as jailbreaking an iPhone: possible, legal, might brick your console, Sony hates it.

mesamunefire,

Well that sucks NVM.

RampantParanoia2365,

I’ve used mine more as a PC than console. Love the OS, it’s basically Windows without any of MS’s bullshit.

Tarogar,

I would argue that it’s a handheld PC since it’s not locked down to heck and back. It would also be the one thing I would buy but I have no use case for it so I don’t.

tal,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

Yeah, same. If I were going to get a handheld console, it’s pretty much exactly what I’d want, but…I really don’t need another portable computing device.

Viking_Hippie, do games w Denuvo Unveils New Tech That Will Make It Easier for Devs to Track Down Leakers

Denuvo continuing to be to gaming what Monsanto was to farming. 🖕

daddy32,

Was? Are Monsanto’s days over?

Viking_Hippie,

Yes and no: they were bought by Bayer 5 years ago, so they don’t exist under that name anymore, but I don’t know how much of their worst bullshit they’re still doing under the new name.

For example, I was unable to confirm or rule out whether they’re still doing the suicide crops and food DRM bullshit as Bayer or not…

evranch,

As a farmer Monsanto has done a lot of sketchy stuff, but I’d like to point out that “terminator crops” actually have a legitimate usage case. There’s few worse weeds than volunteer herbicide-resistant canola, and if it just didn’t come up next year it would be great.

Almost all modern crops are hybrids anyways which don’t breed true. Nobody is saving seed except in very specific cases and even small farmers aren’t even planting bin-run wheat as modern genetics outperform it so greatly.

If you want to save seed there are plenty of open-pollinated varieties out there but unfortunately most of them perform poorly compared to their modern hybrid counterparts, from field crops to garden vegetables.

BmeBenji, (edited ) do games w Where's Our Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League Review? (IGN denied review code)

Imagine you just finished playing Arkham Knight, and you get an interview with Rocksteady as a game developer. They love you, your passion, your creative skills, and they onboard you. This “game” is what Warner Bros hands down to you to work on. The well-known head of the studio leaves within a few years of you joining. You hold out hope that everything will come together so people can enjoy the art that you’ve worked so hard on. Warner Bros adds a battle pass. Warner Bros makes it a “game”-as-a-service. Warner Bros announces nonsensical lore additions for the sake of post-launch content. Warner Bros denies review copies. The “studio” you thought you were signing up for has become nothing but a slot machine for the higher-ups.

What a shitty thing to do to a whole group of wonderfully creative and skilled people.

kromem,

See, this is the thing people don’t realize when they think generative AI is going to reduce headcounts overall.

Corporations suck. The entire reason they exist is because of the high transactional costs surrounding labor (there’s a Nobel winning economics essay on this from the turn of the 20th century called “the nature of the firm”).

They will reduce value and increase price as much as possible because they only exist to be a middleman between the consumer and the producer.

But right now there’s no alternative. It’s crazy expensive to make AA and up games so you need to target mass market appeal to get the money for it and usually need to crawl up finance bros’ asses who don’t even play games and look down on those who do.

That’s all about to change dramatically.

Co-op studio structures where employees are owners, smaller teams with large aspirations, franchises with small but dedicated fan bases - these largely died out in the 90s besides remnant very indie groups as transactional costs to produce a game went through the roof and those costs are about to turn around.

Yes, gen AI means less people are needed to make a game. But it doesn’t mean less people will be making games. It means there will be more games, and games coming from people with vision rather than coming from people with a quarterly statement they are trying to maximize.

Hello Games was a team of around a dozen people, and while it was a bumpy road, using procgen allowed them to build an entire universe. Well procgen and a whole host of other tools are about to suck a lot less and be much more accessible to even small studios to make ambitious games.

My hope is that we see things happen rapidly enough that many of the thousands of devs who have lost their jobs at mega-corps will be able to reorganize to take on the Goliaths and win rather than be forced to move on to other industries.

A shakeup is about to happen that’s going to destroy the season pass, micro transaction, soulless meat grinder that’s most large studio/publishers today - it’s just maybe ~3 years out from the inflection point of no return.

But one thing is for certain - most of the largest games companies are woefully unprepared for what’s coming and are about to be stepped all over like Blockbuster or Circuit City.

zecg,
@zecg@lemmy.world avatar

right now there’s no alternative. It’s crazy expensive to make AA and up games

You’re kidding? UE5 with Nanite is a whole-ass studio and you can use it for free and pay a percentage once you’re making money. It’s never been cheaper and the games have never been more plentiful. AAA has this problem exactly because games like Palworld are hits eating huge amounts of gamers’ time.

qwertyqwertyqwerty, do games w Nearly Half of CD Projekt Now Working on The Witcher 4

I need to get back to playing W3. It seems like a great game by all accounts. But, I will not be purchasing another game from CDPR until at least 6 months post-release given the state of CP2077. Not only was it released in an unacceptable state, it wasn’t the game that was promised. There have been so many good games released between last year and this year, I can wait until ~2030 if they need to take their time polishing it and making it a complete experience.

nous,

But, I will not be purchasing another AAA game from CDPR until at least 6 months post-release

FTFY, unfinished release day games seems to be more than just a CDPR problem.

qwertyqwertyqwerty,

That’s unfortunately true. There are not many developers/publishers I would trust to purchase their products on release day.

n1ckn4m3,
@n1ckn4m3@kbin.social avatar

Not only that, but their PR person gaslighting people with the article claiming that the game wasn't bad, it was just "cool to hate" has left a really bad taste in my mouth. The game could be absolutely amazing now and the expansion pack could be the game that we were always promised, but the experience and the follow-up has been so bad that I'm similarly waiting until post launch (heck, perhaps even until GOTY with included DLC) for any future CDPR games.

qwertyqwertyqwerty,

I personally couldn’t make it past the “no object permanence” issue, where NPC’s would just spawn into and out of existence depending on where the camera was pointing. It was like a magician brought a clear cloth to the table to perform a trick, and we could see how the trick was performed the entire time. It doesn’t make his performance less impressive, but it sure would make it less immersive.

Aethr,

I mean, nearly every 3d game doesn’t render what the player isn’t looking at. CP77 just did it poorly lol

qwertyqwertyqwerty,

Not rendering != despawn entities and respawn entirely new entities every time your camera changes direction. They also advertised it as NPC’s each having their own unique routines, etc. Talk about overpromising and underdelivering. This broke immersion too much for me to play the game. The second I hit the city and saw how NPC’s were handled, I was done. It’s unfortunate, because I thought the map design, sound, graphics, and gunplay all seemed really good.

ono,

It seems like a great game by all accounts.

Unpopular opinion: I liked the characters and lore a lot, but I found that the sloppy controls and sluggish movement made the world frustrating to interact with, and most of the encounters were so repetitive that I was bored before long. I ended up switching to easy mode so I could finish the story without having to spend much time on the tedious gameplay.

IMHO, if you were to rush through W3 in story mode and skip the side quests, just to get the background before playing W4, I don’t think you’d be missing much.

qwertyqwertyqwerty,

I have only played a few hours, but I recall what I thought was a side quest involving pigs, which was a great quest. Are you suggesting that memorable side quests are infrequent and can/should be skipped?

ono, (edited )

I actually found the side quests’ writing pretty good, and indeed, sometimes even memorable. Unfortunately, most of those quests share a handful of nearly identical tasks, so the good writing started to feel like little more than window dressing before long.

The map encounters were worse, though: Lots of question marks telling me exactly where to go meant there was nearly no real exploration to be had in this open world, and arriving at them led to the same copypasta events over and over again. If you happen to enjoy those events enough that you can’t get enough of them, then that’s great, but I was bored after the first dozen or so. (Skyrim was far better in this department.)

I remember liking a lot of the main quests, and the characters, and the story, and the world building. It’s just that the bulk of the gameplay felt like filler content, with forgettable combat and awkward controls. (I swear, Geralt, if you plod forward one more time when I pull back on the stick, or let one more candle get in the way when I try to interact with something useful, I’m gonna smack you.)

I hope Witcher 4 maintains (or even improves upon) the writing quality of its predecessor, and adds responsive controls and interesting gameplay beyond the main plot points.

Defaced,

You realize cyberpunk wasn’t the only game they’ve made that needed fixed after release right? Both W1 and 2 had enhanced edition patches to fix the broken shit in both games. W1 was a 7/10 game on release by multiple outlets. W3 was the first game they actually took their time with and delayed multiple times to avoid the enhanced edition patches. Anyone who thought cyberpunk was going to be flawless on release was breathing in that hopium.

qwertyqwertyqwerty,

You realize cyberpunk wasn’t the only game they’ve made that needed fixed after release right?

Nope. I skipped those.

Veraxus, (edited ) do games w Todd Howard Says Planet Exploration in Starfield Was Brutal Before Being 'Nerfed' - IGN
@Veraxus@kbin.social avatar

I can't believe how this guy just keeps opening his mouth and telling us how Starfield used to be fun and interesting, but that they removed all that stuff until all that was left was this sterile Far Cry clone that feels more like a chore than a game.

I'm already mad at how unbearably boring the game is, and the more Todd Howard talks about the development, the more angry I get. It's callously just rubbing salt in an open wound.

TommySoda, do games w The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion Remastered Mods Have Already Been Published Online

Is there one to get rid of the “piss” filter they put over the game? That’s really my only complaint so far.

Edit: There is! I knew this would be one of the first ones out of the gate.

MudMan, do games w Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown Team Disbanded After Critically Lauded Platformer Fails to Meet Expectations - Report

That sucks. The game itself was great and its Steam numbers are Concord-bad.

I'd put a lot more weight on "Ubisoft games suck because of all the MTX and games as a service stuff" if people hadn't ghosted the legitimately great zero-MTX traditional mid-sized game.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

There was also a little too much game. Instead of putting in every platforming challenge that they could think of for a given set of mechanics, it would have been paced much better if they just picked their two or three best. I’ll bet it doesn’t help that it requires the Ubisoft launcher on Steam either.

MudMan,

Could have said that of Ori and Hollow Knight and people seem to have showed up for those. I don't think this is any worse than they are, FWIW. In any case to even notice that kind of nuance you have to play it. If that was the conversation we're having they'd be making a sequel.

The fact that it initially launched on Epic certainly didn't help its Steam numbers, but it also did much worse than Outlaws and other Ubisoft exclusives there, so the "it's the MTX/GaaS" argument doesn't hold.

BossDj,

Casual gamer here. I’d heard of Concord. Never knew another Prince of Persia game even existed.

MudMan,

Hah. Did you hear about Concord before or after it left a crater visible from space?

In any case, there are two of them, in fact, and they're both good. You may be in time to help save The Rogue Prince of Persia, which is doing even worse, but if you don't mess with Early Access, Lost Crown is still up for sale and it's pretty great.

BossDj,

I saw a trailer before it came out, but it may have been in the context of how much of a guardians knockoff it was.

I’ll go watch some Prince of Persia gameplay this morning!

Letstakealook,

As a company pushes people away it gets harder to pull them back, so that doesnt take away from their complaints. Also, I’m not sure that the same crowd who plays other ubisoft titles is the crowd that’s interested in a 2d platformer.

MudMan,

Well, it's the same crowd that plays a bunch of games that did better. The game is on the same platforms, Ubisoft or not. And all their GaaS games did much, much better on those same platforms, so yeah, it absolutely takes away from their complaints.

Outlaws may have been a bit of a disappointment and Mirage may have struggled, but Mirage had 5x the player count on its Steam relaunch than Lost Crown did. People want AssCreed and they're gonna get AssCreed forever.

Letstakealook,

I think there is some confusion here. The game genre is “2d platformer,” I wasn’t referring to where people can play it. It isn’t the most popular genre of gaming, and it’s quite different from ubisofts’ other titles.

MudMan,

Yeah, no, I understood it. I'm saying that there are similar 2d platformers on those same platforms (look, it's not my fault language recycles words for things) that did much, much better.

yamanii,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

What do you even mean? Hollow Knight was a massive success, so was Bloodstained, Ori, Metroid Dread, etc. People can’t stop memeing that Silk song is not releasing because they refuse to forget about it, Ubi’s reputation is just in the gutter so to capture the audience that enjoys these games again they have to do multiple good things, not just one and give up.

Letstakealook,

Those games did well, it doesn’t mean the genre is among the most popular and i bet they didn’t approach those level of sales. I wasn’t throwing shade, that’s just facts. I also mentioned ubis or reputation adding to this.

bob_lemon,

The launch price is what killed it. In a genre dominated by AA games, games need to use AA pricetags.

MudMan,

It's 40 bucks. 50 with the DLC. That's the same price as Bloodstained, and that sold millions.

Also, the Steam re-release launched with a 40% discount. Nobody played it on Steam for that price, either.

This thread is full of hypotheses and retrospective rationalizations that don't quite check out.

TheLowestStone,
@TheLowestStone@lemmy.world avatar

On PC it requires Ubi’s launcher and Denuvo. That’s enough to make me completely uninterested.

MudMan,

Right. So you didn't make a difference here, since that's also true of all the Ubi games that did better than this, then.

But this doesn't have any of the other crap people are blaming for Ubi doing poorly. So you'd expect if the outrage was making a dent whatsoever their one game that is relatively clean of that stuff would have done better, not worse, than the other stuff they are putting out.

But nope, the opposite is true.

So hey, not saying you're lying, but I think the collective at least looked at the nice, small 2D metroidvania with no MTX and went "nah", but they were much more willing to give the GaaS-y stuff a try.

Although if I WAS saying you're not being all the way honest, I may guess that you just weren't on board for this anyway and now are performatively feigning outrage for something else after the fact to pretend other people's motivations are aligned with your opinions. But I'm not. So we're good.

MotoAsh,

The irony of you constantly telling people they don’t actually know why they do not pay Ubisoft…

My dude… We’re TELLING YOU why we aren’t buying it. You’re just too dumb and stubborn to accept the truth. Obstinance makes you pathetic, not correct.

MudMan,

Right.

So, one, I'm pretty sure in most cases that's not why, for the same reasons we all shared memes of people "boycotting Call of Duty" while appearing online playing Call of Duty.

But even taking everyone at their word, I'm saying the group as a whole is not working by those parameters. Directly, demonstrably in apples to apples comparisons they didn't buy the Ubisoft game that doesn't do the stuff people claim to be mad about and bought other Ubisoft games in larger numbers.

The thing with obstinance is that it's hard to make reality change its mind. Remarkably stubborn, reality.

TheLowestStone,
@TheLowestStone@lemmy.world avatar

You really don’t understand that the people who throw money at Ubi’s standard crap and people who 2d Metroidvania games are mostly different people with different values? The CoD/Fifa/Assassin Creed crowd clearly don’t give a fuck about shitty, intrusive launchers and kernel level anti-cheat.

Meanwhile, lovers of Metroidvania games looked at Prince of Persia and it’s competition (games like Nine Sols) and chose one that didn’t install malware on their computer.

MudMan,

I get that you want that to be true, but there is really no indication that this is the case. There are a lot of elements in Ubisoft's recent issues, but there is no good suggestion that any of that train of thought lines up with what we're seeing here.

More to the point, even if it was, all that suggests for Ubi as a course of action is to keep doing what they're doing. I mean, maybe launch on Steam day one, but... yeah, if you monetize the big games better and the fans of the small games won't cut you a break for making them... just don't make them.

My point stands either way.

MotoAsh,

No, boycotts are not a corporate death knell. No one is saying that. LITERALLY no one is saying their personal decision or reasoning is the cause of this news.

EVERYONE ks pkinting at shitty things Ubisoft does, says, it caused them to not bjy it and likely is impacting others’ decisions… then you come along going, “NUHUH NUHUH, Ubisoft isn’t losing money because YOU didn’t buy it!”

My dude… we FUCKING KNOW THAT!! We’re saying UBISOFT shot themselves in the foot with shitty behavior. This article is literally about the effects of people not buying en masse, and you’re saying that the NEWS WE ARE READING is not possible…

Just stop. Just stop. Boycotts most often do not work, but THIS IS NOT A BOYCOTT!! This is people explaining why they stopped giving Ubisoft money. Holy fuck, you are good at doubling down on a bad idea.

MudMan,

No, you're not following me.

The point here isn't whether this game did poorly. It did. Cool.

The point here is that it did WORSE than other Ubisoft games.

Specifically, worse than Ubisoft games that include all the shitty behavior. More of the shitty behavior, in fact.

So the performance of the game is not correlated to the shitty behavior. Well, maybe more shitty behavior gets you better sales, that would fit, but I'm not going to jump to that.

You'd think if Ubisoft's shitty behavior is scaring people off this game would have done better than Mirage and Mirage better than Outcasts, but that's the opposite of what happened.

TachyonTele, (edited )

People that play games like this PoP don’t generally buy the other games Ubisoft sells. And the people that do play recent Ubisoft games are not going to play this.

That is why things like the anti cheat (for a single player game) turn people off.

MudMan,

This doesn't have anticheat, it has DRM software, though.

But hey, if there is no overlap, then how come this did so much worse than other similarly well liked metroidvanias, right? That's been my point here. People keep pointing out that it's not comparable to other Ubi titles. I disagree, because PoP is PoP, but let's roll with that. It also underperformed compared to other games in the same genre with similar review scores.

So what happened there? Either the Ubi woes are behind this, and then it doesn't make sense because this did worse than other more Ubisofty Ubisoft games, or they are not because different demos, and that doesn't make sense because this did much worse than similar games not from Ubisoft.

I think as far as this tells us anything is that the stink of negativity is not very fact-based when it comes to the core gaming community. That and Ubisoft may not have more money to make by going to middle sized, pure and simple high quality experiences like Rayman or this. Which sucks. Those are the best games they've made in recent years, as far as I'm concerned.

TachyonTele,

Dude, multiple people have told you why. I spelled it out as well.

Unless you’re a dev you’ve chosen a very strange hill to die on.

MudMan,

I don't and have never worked at Ubisoft, Mr McCarthy.

Multiple people have explained a hypothesis that doesn't fit the information we have. Them being multiple people doesn't make it true.

TachyonTele,

You being one person that refuses to accept things does not make everyone else wrong.

MudMan,

No, that'd be the info we have on how Ubi games performed on both Epic and Steam. I have very little to do with it, I'm just pointing at it.

TachyonTele,

Why do you even bother to comment a hundred times in here if you’re not going to read anything anyone is saying to you?

What’s the point? Are you really that bored?

MudMan,

If I responded to it, I read it in full.

Also, yes, obviously.

Katana314,

There’s still some truth to his statement.

If someone says one thing and does another…people tend to trust the action, not the words. If sales numbers indicate one thing, it doesn’t matter what people say on social media.

sexual_tomato,

They’re competing against games like Hollow Knight which offer 40+ hours of content for less money.

MudMan,

Hollow Knight is from 2017, I don't think it was out there draining business form this seven years later. Bloodstained is more recent, and that cost the same as PoP. Also the Ori games, which are priced the same.

Plus this launched half off on Steam and nobody bought it despite being cheaper than Bloodstained and Ori.

So... I mean, it could have been that, but it pretty clearly wasn't that.

NuXCOM_90Percent, (edited )

Xalavier Nelson Jr talked about this a few times over on Remap Radio.

Strange Scaffold (and many other indie studios) are literally doing what people are asking for. They are making “complete” games with no early access period and no DLC with shockingly high production values for the budget. And people are ignoring them until there is a massive sale AND still going full culture war over the stupidest of shit*. Which means it is increasingly difficult for them to secure any kind of funding even though they have an incredibly solid track record for both development and sales.

And… that is the sad reality. It has been true for decades at this point but it feels increasingly more true now. Games can’t just release “done” because people will forget they exist by the time they are willing to buy them. Look at your steam wishlist and (please don’t actually) tell me if you even remember what all of those are. Instead, people see that Caves of Qud is finally going to hit 1.0 or that Pathfinder 2 has a new DLC or that Fortnite has fucking Goku and that simultaneously reminds them that game exists AND has “new content” so that they can feel justified in being a “patient gamer”.

I can’t speak to this PoP. I know that it is a games media darling and is INCREDIBLY well done but I also tend to not want to give ubi money until yves is gone due to his role in enabling and protecting sexual misconduct which continues to this day. But it is a solid reminder of why so many major publishers refuse to do anything that is not a major franchise (and apparently Prince of Persia no longer is) or has high enough production values that it bypasses the “I’ll wait for a sale” mindset.

So… Yeah, as consumers it is not our job or responsibility to protect the people trying to sell us shit. But, if you can afford it, consider buying fewer games overall but prioritizing newer ones that actively do things you think are awesome. From a selfish standpoint, you are more likely to actually play it rather than one of the five games you got for a dollar in a fanatical bundle. But it also REALLY helps those studios to be able to report solid first quarter (or even day one) sales and many games are already launching in the 20-30 USD range anyway.

Like, I don’t know if “really well done metroidvania” is a particularly solid reason. But there is a reason all of us squad tactics sickos went crazy buying nu-xcom and the like back in the day. Because we had gone from such a lack of games that even frigging UFO: Afterlight was worth playing (it isn’t. But Aftermath or whatever the first one in that series is is the best SG-1 game ever made) to suddenly having options. And, a decade later, we have enough options that… paradox fucking murdered HBS because they weren’t pulling projected nu-xcom numbers.

*: Paraphrasing since it has been the better part of a year, but Xalavier was joking that he caught so much hell for basically parroting Swen’s stance that Larian’s BG3 was atypical and can’t be reproduced. Yet people ignored all his VERY leftist takes on economics and social justice. Although, I assume that has shifted if he is still on twitter.

MudMan,

I don't know the guy, but all of that sounds reasonable to me.

BG3 can be replicated, if you have a massive dormant IP that is part of a furiously resurgent franchise and have several hundred million dollars to burn in a years-long development cycle by a studio that has already done pretty much the exact same thing without a license successfully twice.

I wouldn't model my business on aligning that set of circumstances, but I sure am glad Larian did.

To be clear, there's a bunch of other AAA stuff that is also doing quite well with pretty clean, finished games. But for midsize stuff like PoP... woof, yeah, it's so hard to break through.

And you're right, it's a miserable set of incentives that if you launch broken you kinda have a built-in marketing hit because suddenly you're doing live support and adding features. No Man's Sky was a fun one for that. Cyberpunk. But those games did great at launch, so they had the built-in base to keep growing while they fixed the game. PoP launched pretty clean, was small and nobody cared, so it's no wonder Ubi has decided it can make those super talented devs do stuff on the next massive AssCreed or whatever is left of Beyond Good and Evil 2 or The Division or whatever.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

They are making “complete” games with no early access period and no DLC with shockingly high production values for the budget. And people are ignoring them until there is a massive sale

I can think of several other variables that may be necessary for success that aren’t being tested in that statement. Like, is it a setting that resonates with people? Yes, I want more Max Payne, but not so much with vampires in it. Then when you find a game that gets acclaim and the audience is there for it, this is a good time to sequel that game, because now there’s brand recognition on the game people like, and they’ll be more willing to spend full price on a game where they’re confident in what they’re getting.

JJROKCZ,

I just refuse to support Ubisoft. I don’t like their practices, or most of their games. I don’t feel I’m missing much by skipping whatever they make. Hopefully they go out of business and a better company can pick up their IPs and make good games, for a decent price, without crazy micro-transactions, 30 different special packs, and a required secondary launcher

MudMan,

Okay, but there was none of that here (except perhaps the launcher), and there was no suggestion in the results that anybody wants to encourage that. So that's definitely not the lesson being learned here.

Also, and I will keep repeating this forever, companies don't make games, people make games.

Also, also, good luck with that. Don't look now, but that's not how major companies going out of business and fire-selling their IPs tends to go.

Look, I'm not sure why it's Ubisoft's turn in the hot seat after EA and Activision, but none of that is a productive outlook or leads to a better outcome, as this one really good, really wholesome game bombing hard goes to show.

bradbeattie,

Denuvo is a deal-breaker for me.

Stromatose,

Ubisoft is in the hotseat because they let their suits have too much power over the games they produce.

I am a fan of the prince of persia series and based on the reviews I’d seen I was really interested in this title. But their absolute refusal to participate in the steam ecosystem and insistence on pushing their launcher means that I, as someone who values my own time, am not going to bother with their nonsense.

They don’t understand their customers anymore. Not well enough to shift the direction of their company’s initiatives. They deserve to fail even when they do manage to produce fun and interesting games because they are bad at the business aspects of being a game publisher/developer.

MudMan,

Well, they're back on Steam, this game included, so there's that shift. Does that count or nah?

Stromatose,

They are making progress by not delaying all of their releases on steam but man that launcher is a nuiscance.

I was too hostile to the company in my last message, honestly I used to enjoy their games. And in general I enjoy the types of games they produce. I’m a sucker for open world stuff but I stopped buying their games when they started trying to emulate the EA strategy of remaking the same game every year and inflating dlc.

I’ll happily welcome them back into my library when they drop the launcher component and lean in to steams networking features for easy coop and such.

Just the other day my buddy and I were looking for a coop open world action game with decent combat, he stumbled onto ghost recon wildlands or maybe it was the sequel but either way once we saw it was ubisoft we moved on to look for other title and ended up choosing an entirely different genre despite that being what we were looking for

MudMan,

Yeah, I fully agree that they've stuck to a template far too closely for far too long. That's part of why I'm frustrated that this one went as poorly as it did, since it very much isn't that.

I think the hostility to any non-Steam platform is unwarranted, although annoyance is annoyance. That said, the Ubi launcher on Steam right now is just a pop-up, I don't think it makes you log in each time if you have everything linked.

Stromatose,

Eh, they deserve a little hostility.

Last time I fired up a game I owned on steam that required the ubi launcher was a few years ago now and it was really bad then. Like to the point of it automatically creating a new account for me and forcibly linking it to my steam profile despite it not being the account I already had with ubisoft from a registration I had created on an Xbox console previously. It permanently divided my library between multiple ubisoft logins and made accessing the right one really annoying. Their support wouldn’t let me refund or even migrate the title to the correct account and they made it an even further inconvenience by not letting me unlink my steam profile from my (wrong) ubisoft profile without writing in a physical letter for some stupid reason. Something to do with purchase history not overlapping with the steam profile or honestly I don’t even remember anymore but it was more than enough to no longer want to do business with them.

If it’s improved to the point that it’s just a pop-up I’d be willing to consider them again. I really don’t want to support ubisoft themselves but I’d love to support Prince of Persia games. If any other studio owned the IP I would have bought it on release day

MudMan,

Yeah, so I just checked, it brings up a Ubisoft Connect windows and then boots. It has less of a launcher than, say, Baldur's Gate 3.

I don't know if it makes you log in the first time or it creates a new thing for you by default, but I can tell you I had more account and launcher trouble running Warframe on a new PC this week than I did playing any recent Ubisoft game.

BTW, you can link up your Steam account to Warframe now and not have to log in each time and man, that only took a decade. Still didn't piss people off as much as Ubisoft being on Epic, though.

bradbeattie,
scorp,
@scorp@lemmy.ml avatar

i have a theory about some games not being popular/successful because of the lack of word of mouth and anti-Piracy measures being the reason, maybe someone already made a study on this

MudMan,

Not to my knowledge, but I bet not being on Steam had more to do with it than Denuvo, by far. There is no indication that DRM software discourages sales, to my knowledge. If it does, at worst it breaks even.

I will buy the DRM-free option every time, but every piece of data out there suggests that "I will never play a game with Denuvo" people vastly overestimate how much of a practical impact that stance has.

Me, I'm just weirded out that people are so mad about some solutions they know but not about Steam DRM or any other solution that isn't known widely by name. You know, since I'm sharing all my unpopular gaming hot takes here.

AwesomeLowlander,

Steam DRM doesn’t have quite the same history of maliciousness towards end users that Denuvo does

MudMan,

Ah, the vibes.

I mean, there are worse areas to run based on gut checks. Ultimately you buy whatever brands make you feel warm and cozy. But just so we're clear, Steam is the granddaddy of both PC DRM and digital distribution with no ownership.

I get thinking their implementation is better, but I don't know that I get "well, this one I actively root for, that one I consider a boycott-worthy deal breaker".

bradbeattie,

If Denuvo has no negative impact on sales, what’s the need for their recent PR campaign to “rehabilitate their image”? feddit.nl/post/22918778

MudMan, (edited )

Well, brand and image are relevant, in more ways than direct sales impact (something that "voting with your wallet" often ignores).

But mostly, and this is important, it's worth remembering that Denuvo's clients aren't the people who buy their games, they are the people who sell the games. That's who Denuvo is selling to. And Denuvo, which is a very big, if not the only, name in town for effective DRM on PC, would like to keep being that.

All else being equal, if Denuvo generates negativity in forums and a similar no-name competitor doesn't a client (that's a publisher, not a buyer of the game), may choose to go with the newcomer just to remove the noise, or to prevent an impact on sales they can't verify.

But also, I imagine people working at Denuvo are kind of over being the random boogeyman of gaming du jour while other DRM providers are actively praised or ignored. I'd consider speaking up, too.

I probably wouldn't because there's very little to be gained from that, as this conversation proves, but... you know, I'd consider it.

EDIT: Oh, hey, I hadn't noticed, but the guy actually responds to this explicitly. Pretty much along these lines, actually:

RPS: A lot of companies seem happy enough with the service Denuvo provides to keep using it. Why are you so concerned about public perception? Why not just let people have their theories and carry on doing your thing?

Andreas Ullmann: Hard to answer. So maybe it's just… maybe it's even a personal thing. I'm with the company for such a long time. The guys here are like my family, because a lot of the others here are also here for ages. It just hurts to see what's posted out there about us, even though it has been claimed wrong for hundreds of times.

On the other hand, I can imagine that this reputation also has some kind of business impact. I can imagine that certain developers, probably more in the indie region or the smaller region, are not contacting us in the first place if they are looking for solutions.

Because currently, there is only two ways to protect a game against piracy, right? Either you don't, or use our protection. There is no competitor. And I can imagine that there are developers out there who are hesitant to contact us, only because of the reputation. They would probably love to prevent piracy for their game, but they fear the hate and the toxicity of the community if they do so. And maybe they even believe all the claims that are out there - unanswered from us until today - and for this reason don't contact us in the first place.

Kaldo, do games w Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 Delayed AGAIN — This Time to the First Half of 2025

Guys its getting harder and harder every year to still hope this turns out okay

SoJB,

Mobile game studio has trouble with a bleeding edge (heh) blockbuster AAA RPG, I’m sure this will be a BG3-tier banger.

The funny part is I’m also unironically hoping it’s good 🤡

ABCDE,

How are they a mobile studio?

MolochAlter,

Worse, they’re a walking sim developer.

ABCDE,

My favourite, luckily.

MolochAlter,

They could be your favourite football team, too, that still doesn’t fill me with confidence on their level of preparation for this.

Bloodlines was an extremely ambitious mix of immersive sim and RPG, in the same vein as early Deus Ex, TCR’s most gameplay heavy game has an ineffective monster that takes several seconds to kill you and myst style puzzles.

There’s a mismatch in milieus here.

ABCDE,

Luckily they have a hundred employees and are under Sumo, so lots of resources and people experienced in creating lots of types of games.

I_Has_A_Hat, do games w Jump Ship Plays Like a Mix of Sea of Thieves, Left 4 Dead, and FTL

That sounds like a bunch of promises made by someone in marketing.

Moneo,

So much “journalism” feels like advertising.

Tylerdurdon,

Ah, enlightenment. So, no pre-orders, right?

ours,

Never pre order.

simple, do games w Dragon’s Dogma 2 Title Update 1.050 Adds ‘Start New game’, Max 30fps Option, More

Nice, can’t wait to pick it up when it’s $15

Thorgs,

Lately I bought a lot of AAA Games from the past couple year’s for 12€ up to 20€. It is such a better experience. They work (almost bug free) and you get 30+ Hours out of them on the first run. And when you only get 10 Hours or so out of them and don’t feel like investing more time into them, I tend to not have the big buyers remorse effect like with games that cost up to 100€ plus 20€ every other month or so for the next DLC/Battle Pass that should just have been an update or part of the main game from the start.

caut_R,

Patient Gamers eating well (and sensibly priced)

BruceTwarzen, do games w Where's Our Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League Review? (IGN denied review code)

Why IGN of all reviewers? Easiest 9/10 they could ever wish for.

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