bin.pol.social

RizzRustbolt, do games w What is the best Sea based game out there in your opinion?

Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker has some of the most fun sailing physics of any ocean game I’ve ever played.

And the physics were realistic enough that you could fill out the map before you got the ability to control the winds just by tacking the boat.

harmsy,

Ocean theme was stuck in my head the moment I saw the question.

Derpenheim, do gaming w Todd's not asking

I will. I have nothing better to live for, this world fucking sucks and it’s not changing. I’m buying skyrim again, and I’ll have an awesome time.

mundane, do gaming w Why doesn't Steam support Android?

It’s a pain to get other app stores to get uptake on Android since Google refuses to let other app stores be distributed via Google Play. So if Steam starts to distribute games for Android, the Steam app would be thrown out from Google Play.

It’s the same reason why the F-droids user base is so small and will never reach the main public. As soon as your app store needs to be installed via a third party web site, you have lost.

Ulrich, (edited )
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

Sure, but Steam can leverage their already-massive 132M userbase, just like Epic has (only much bigger). Put an announcement on the Steam store and client pages. Show a pop-up when someone opens the website from an Android device, etc. I mean certainly they wouldn’t achieve the same level of success as Google who has their store installed on literally every Android device, but even a tiny fraction of their revenue would be an enormous boon to Steam.

So if Steam starts to distribute games for Android, the Steam app would be thrown out from Google Play.

That’s not how that works. They only throw it out if you use the app in the app store to distribute other apps. They don’t ban the entire company from distributing any software.

jarfil,

They don’t ban the entire company from distributing any software.

They can do whatever, it’s their store.

Keep in mind that Epic Games v. Google has made Google add features to allow alternative app stores on Android… which automatically removes the monopoly argument and lets Google ban anyone they want from the Google Play store.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

They can do whatever, it’s their store.

No. They can’t.

which…lets Google ban anyone they want from the Google Play store

No it didn’t.

jarfil,

Read the case, the whole thing started because Google banned Epic from the Play store, and the only reason for it to become a case, was the monopolistic position. That’s gone now, they’re free to refuse service to whoever they want, whenever they want, for no reason at all… and if you don’t agree, go sue them, they’ll show you the precedent followed by the door.

Ulrich, (edited )
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

I’m very familiar with the case.

and the only reason for it to become a case, was the monopolistic position.

The reason it became a case is because Epic violated the ToS (intentionally).

That’s gone now, they’re free to refuse service to whoever they want, whenever they want, for no reason at all…

…what is gone, exactly? You think this settlement suddenly made them no longer a monopoly? That’s not how that works. Further, companies that are not monopolies ALSO have to comply with their own ToS, so I’m honestly very confused about what you’re trying to say here.

jarfil,

what is gone, exactly?

By adding support for alternate stores, the monopoly argument is gone: everyone can build their own store now. Meaning, everyone with a store can kick out anyone else, and tell them to just build their own.

comply with their own ToS

…which they can change at any moment, but don’t really need to; most ToS include clauses about refusing service without having to explain why. If you ever agree to a ToS, better make sure they’re even supposed to notify you if they ever decide to cut you off.

Sivilian, do gaming w Why doesn't Steam support Android?

There are some projects to bring steam games to android. Like Pluvia.

missingno, do gaming w Why doesn't Steam support Android?
@missingno@fedia.io avatar

Valve is in the business of selling PC games. Moving into a new market wouldn't be trivial, and Google has put up a lot of barriers to make it especially difficult for a third-party app store to challenge their monopoly.

Ulrich, (edited )
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

Valve is in the business of selling PC games.

They support games for Windows, Mac and Linux. And I’m sure they would support them for PS, Nintendo and Xbox if they weren’t created with explicit intention of not allowing that sort of thing. Android is the only market they could feasibly enter and choose not to.

Moving into a new market wouldn’t be trivial

No but it also wouldn’t be that difficult for a company with Valve’s resources, and would be extremely lucrative.

Google has put up a lot of barriers to make it especially difficult for a third-party app store to challenge their monopoly.

Such as?

missingno,
@missingno@fedia.io avatar

No but it also wouldn't be that difficult

Why would you think that? Of course it would be difficult, it's a massive undertaking.

Amazon and Epic have both tried to launch their own Android storefronts. Neither one has been even remotely successful. Amazon will be shutting theirs down soon.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

Why would you think that?

For the reason I mentioned in the OP. Because it’s been done before, several times. Including by Epic, with a fraction of Valve’s resources.

Amazon and Epic have both tried to launch their own Android storefronts

Everything I’ve read about the Amazon store indicates that it sucks on every level, for all parties.

The Epic Store is only a few months old. And they can’t even make a decent or profitable app for PC so I’d be very unsurprised if their mobile app is also trash.

missingno,
@missingno@fedia.io avatar

Amazon and Epic both failed because it is not easy to move into a market that Google has such a dominant monopoly over. It's not that simple.

Ulrich, (edited )
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

Epic has not failed (yet). As I just said, it’s only been around for a few months.

I disagree about Amazon for reasons I’ve already stated so we’ll have to agree to disagree on that.

missingno,
@missingno@fedia.io avatar

Why'd you even make this thread if you were just going to reject any answers given to you?

Ulrich, (edited )
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

I’m not rejecting anything. It’s called a discussion. They could very well be right. I just disagree.

Evkob,
@Evkob@lemmy.ca avatar

Paragraph 4.5 of Google Play’s Developer Distribution Agreement is a rather large barrier. I’ll paste it here:

4.5 You may not use Google Play to distribute or make available any Product that has a purpose that facilitates the distribution of software applications and games for use on Android devices outside of Google Play.

I’d wager the majority of Android users have never downloaded an application other than from the Google Play Store. Even among those who would try, a large amount of them would probably get scared off by the “unverified sources” popup Android gives you if you try to install an app in another manner.

Ulrich, (edited )
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

That’s like saying Amazon has a “barrier” to online sales because they refuse to allow Target to sell products on their site for free. They’re competing services, why would they allow that?

I’d wager the majority of Android users have never downloaded an application other than from the Google Play Store.

Developers most often distribute software outside of official repos in Windows and MacOS, and they do so successfully.

It’s not that hard, you just follow the prompts on the screen.

Evkob,
@Evkob@lemmy.ca avatar

I think you’re overestimating the tech savvyness of the average person :P

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

The average user already uses Windows and/or MacOS, and I would argue those installation procedures are far more complicated.

missingno,
@missingno@fedia.io avatar

The average person has never had to install Windows or MacOS, they buy a computer with it pre-installed. And they buy phones with Google Play pre-installed.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

We’re not talking about installing an operating system. I’m not suggesting Steam create their own OS (although they’re also doing that). We’re talking about installing an app.

missingno,
@missingno@fedia.io avatar

Then why did you bring it up?

The average user already uses Windows and/or MacOS, and I would argue those installation procedures are far more complicated.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

I just explained this in the comment you replied to.

missingno,
@missingno@fedia.io avatar

You didn't explain anything. You said it's easier than installing Windows, and then you said you weren't talking about installing Windows. Huh?

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

You said it’s easier than installing Windows

No I didn’t. What I said was:

We’re talking about installing an app.

I’m saying it’s easier to sideload apps on Android than it is on Windows and MacOS, where it is the primary distribution method used by average people every day.

missingno,
@missingno@fedia.io avatar

That's very much not true then. Have you ever tried to set up a third party store like F-Droid?

Android requires you to dig into the settings before you can install third party APKs, and gives you several big scary warnings about it. If you download an APK from the web browser, it will then prevent you from directly opening it, claiming it's to protect you from malware. Instead you have to open the file browser and find it in your downloads folder, then you can install it from there. Finally, it will give you even more big scary warnings about letting any app that isn't Google Play have permissions to install its own APKs.

Ulrich, (edited )
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

I’ve installed them all. FDroid, Obtainium, Aurora, Accrescent, along with a slew of other sideloaded independent apps, on several devices. That’s not how it works.

If you sideload an app, a pop-up will ask if you want to enable the current app to install the new app and give the typical warning about malware that you’ll get on any OS (for good reason). You click the pop-up, it redirects you to the proper location in the settings app, you toggle the switch and…that’s it.

The instructions are right here on Epic’s website

Instead you have to open the file browser and find it in your downloads folder, then you can install it from there.

Yes that’s how it works on Windows and Mac as well.

Toes,

They support games for Windows, Mac and Linux.

Those are all PC platforms. And Mac support is mostly dead after what Apple did.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

Yes, I am aware. Which is why I continued my explanation after that.

GreyEyedGhost, do games w Steam Deck / Gaming News #10
PerfectDark,
@PerfectDark@lemmy.world avatar
GreyEyedGhost,

I’ve been cheated!

Could not find post in your instance.

PerfectDark,
@PerfectDark@lemmy.world avatar

I really need to get into the habit of just linking all my previous ones at the end of each of these. I just worry it’ll look ‘messy’ or something!

I guess its easier to just follow my username then filter by posts? Or…something. Thanks for asking though, that is a confidence boost to see it wanted!!! <3

GreyEyedGhost,

I’m not sure how this works, but I checked your posting history and it didn’t show up there, either. I guess the great weakness of the fediverse is if the links are interrupted. Perhaps it was due to instance maintenance or something.

PerfectDark,
@PerfectDark@lemmy.world avatar

Oh how odd!

Thank you for letting me know, from the next post I share I’ll start including links to all the previous installments I’ve made, to make it easier for people to navigate to them. What a strange thing to not be able to find them, I’m sorry!

biscuitswalrus, do gaming w Why doesn't Steam support Android?

What would you suggest they sell on their Android store that users would be so encouraged to install a new store and then what they want?

Steam already has a store on Android, you just can’t play games there because most games on steam either already exist on the native google play store, or aren’t compatible with mobile architectures like Arm64. Most mobiles unlike a arm laptop, have no x86/amd64 emulator which is what those games are compiled as by their developers.

So what’s left?

Ulrich, (edited )
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

What would you suggest they sell on their Android store that users would be so encouraged to install a new store and then what they want?

…games?

Steam already has a store on Android

Uhhhh they have an Android app which you can use to buy and manage PC games. That’s not what I’m talking about.

because most games on steam either already exist on the native google play store

…no? Even if they did you’d have to buy 2 licenses instead of 1. As I mentioned in the OP.

Most mobiles unlike a arm laptop, have no x86/amd64 emulator

I’m not suggesting emulation or translation (although that would be great as well), I’m suggesting an app store for selling and installing native Android games.

biscuitswalrus,

I’m trying to figure out the gap in the market you’re trying to fill other than “for steam fan boys it would allow us fans of steam games that already exist in a native place, in a non native place!”

Correct me what is going into it that isn’t already somewhere, and who that appeals to?

Or is this just thought experiment?

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

Well there is that but there’s also the example I gave in the OP where devs could potentially extend their existing games into a new market, increasing their potential audience. A single license would gain a new platform with potential sales opportunities.

Zoomboingding, do gaming w Todd's not asking
@Zoomboingding@lemmy.world avatar

Isn’t that background from the teaser for ES VI?

callouscomic,

Yes. Which was revealed closer to Skyrims original launch than to today.

socsa, do gaming w Todd's not asking

Yes Skyrim daddy

Maven, do games w Steam Deck / Gaming News #10

You should make a community specifically for these. I’d love to be able to add them to my RSS feed!!

Kolanaki, do gaming w Why doesn't Steam support Android?
@Kolanaki@pawb.social avatar

What more do they need to do besides having Steam Link to let you stream your PC games to your phone?

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

Aside from the fact that Steam Link is pretty terrible and requires a high-speed local connection, native Android games.

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@pawb.social avatar

It hasnt needed a local connection for a while. I usually play Civilization over it when out of the house.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

I didn’t realize that but it doesn’t change the fact that:

  • The PC draws way more power than is needed
  • The PC must be powered on (mine draws ~40 watts at idle)
  • A monitor has to be plugged in and turned on.
  • The aspect ratio on the devices have to match or you’ll get letterboxing.
  • If your main display is 4k it will run the game at 4k even if you’re playing on a 720p display so you have to go in and change the graphical settings every time you switch devices.
  • In my limited experience it literally just doesn’t even work at all.
  • Even if you’re running over the web you’re limited to the strength of your data connection.

It just doesn’t work like it should, in my opinion. Hopefully they can fix this in the future with Steam Machines.

HappyTimeHarry, do gaming w Why doesn't Steam support Android?

And give google 30‰ of what every android user purchases? Nutz!

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

No, they would have to create and distribute their own app store, just like Epic.

HappyTimeHarry,

And hows that working out for epic?

Valves strategy of not doing anything new in the last decade while every other publisber shoots themselves in the foot seems to be working pretty well for them.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

And hows that working out for epic?

I don’t know, it’s only been around for a few months.

Valves strategy of not doing anything new in the last decade

That’s not their strategy. I mean, among other things you may have heard of this thing called the Steam Deck? Or Family Sharing? SteamOS? Shit there’s a new video every week about Steam Client updates and improvements.

HappyTimeHarry,

Given the choice between gaming on your phone or a steamdeck, why would anyone choose the phone?

So i guess thats one reason why.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

…because a phone fits in your pocket? And it already goes everywhere with you?

Even if you think it’s dumb (which I mostly agree with) Apple alone makes more money from mobile gaming than every other gaming platform combined.

HappyTimeHarry,

I think it ultimately comes down to having to support another platform ads more work and risk then its worth.

For example theyd have to convince people to essentially break androids walled garden which means valve has to make sure everything they offer for android isnt malicous. Then there is the fact that phones are different specs, more testing, potential customer support … Its a whole can of worms, but valve would gain little. There arent many people who want steam on their phones but dont already have it on pc.

Vavle is good at what they do, they have basically cornered the PC and portable PC markets already, i think not mucking around in an already monopolistic mobile market is a pretty wise business decision on their part overall.

Ulrich, (edited )
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

more work and risk then its worth.

It’s worth billions.

theyd have to convince people to essentially break androids walled garden

It’s not anymore a “walled garden” than Windows.

Then there is the fact that phones are different specs, more testing

There are billions of potential PC configurations. Android would be extremely easy by comparison.

valve would gain little

Did I mention billions? 💵

i think not mucking around in an already monopolistic mobile market is a pretty wise business decision on their part overall.

You could be right.

O_R_I_O_N, do gaming w Todd's not asking

Kcd2 is out brother. Grab a blade and defend the castle

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@pawb.social avatar

I hella want to mod KCD2 to have magic spells and dragons. Though I do find it funny to say “It’s a great RPG based in reality. You get to do awesome quests like digging a ditch or herding sheep!”

UnbrokenTaco, (edited ) do gaming w Why doesn't Steam support Android?

I agree with you however I have one barrier to entry that others haven’t elaborated on.

Firstly, I’ll say how they could overcome some of the other challenges mentioned.

  1. Steam would just have to add the ability for developers to upload android builds of games alongside the windows, Linux, Mac builds. All of a sudden, users would have huge, existing libraries of games. Most games built with Unity can target Android. I suspect a lot of indie developers would happily add the build.
  2. Leaks have implied they were working on an arm emulator/translation layer but I assume this had to do with VR prototyping. Possibly the same effect as above but so many more configurations to target, they couldn’t handle it the way they do with steam deck.
  3. Require/recommend to users to use a controller on Android

If either or both of those first 2 points succeed, Valve doesn’t need to do much more to ensure the utility of Steam games on Android. PC gamers are considered among the most willing and able to jump through hoops for a result. Going to a website to download the steam store plus a little warning on Android wouldn’t stop a reasonable percentage of them. It wouldn’t stop me.

It’s almost 0 risk to them, right? Right? I don’t think so.

Here’s the big barrier I mentioned. I assume they have a not-insignificant number of sales through the the android app. If they start allowing users to install android games, Google is going to stop them from having purchases in their play store app. And while I said that users would install their app from a website, what percentage of users would do it? How many fewer PC game sales would they make (from the Play Store app) in order to let their current users play games on Android?

Additionally, what would Steam do if they started getting android-only games being submitted. Or mobile-quality games dominating their store? Does this dilute Steam’s identity?

Additionally, it might be something they’ve discussed but they would have rather focused on steam deck-type gaming for mobile. Or perhaps an ARM-based steam OS+steamdeck approach would make more sense for them and then the difficulty/cost (and opportunity cost) increases do instead they simply don’t pursue it.

The cross-buy thing is something that Gog or Epic could do but they don’t have nearly the same “customer profile” (size, behaviour etc) so it isn’t as likely to have the same impact.

Regardless, in my view you’ve asked a great question and it’s a solid idea.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

If they start allowing users to install android games, Google is going to stop them from having anything useful in their play store app.

They would have to distribute it independently. Google would have no say in the matter.

what would Steam do if they started getting android-only games being submitted. Or mobile-quality games dominating their store?

…cash their checks? I don’t understand the question. That’s the point.

it might be something they’ve discussed but they would have rather focused on steam deck-type gaming for mobile.

perhaps an ARM-based steam OS+steamdeck approach would make more sense

…why not both?

Although Valve seems to like staying in their lane so that seems like the most likely explanation.

UnbrokenTaco,

They would have to distribute it independently. Google would have no say in the matter.

That’s exactly my point. The current app lets you buy PC games despite being distributed through the store. If you can buy Android games on it, well, I doubt Google will ignore it. And even if Google was okay with it, there’s no way to easily communicate to users who start using the app there that they need to download another app from a website.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea. I’m just saying I think there are reasons they haven’t done it (yet?). I think they certainly must have considered it. I’ve certainly been wondering about it for a long while too.

why not both?

Sure. I would assume they would do it the same way as steam deck, where that’s the priority. The wide variety of phone specs on the market might have an impact on how they could support it etc.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

That’s exactly my point. The current app lets you buy PC games despite being distributed through the store.

And they could continue doing so while also distributing a separate app independently that allows you to buy Android games.

Notice if you try to buy a movie from Amazon on Google TV they redirect you to the website. They could do the same or redirect you to the non-Google version.

I’m just saying I think there are reasons they haven’t done it (yet?)

I agree, I just find it very curious what those reasons are.

UnbrokenTaco,

I don’t think they would get away with selling games in the app if games were playable on Android (demonstrating Android compatibility). I think they would have to do what Amazon kindle does and tell you to go buy your game somewhere else.

Edit: Here’s the policy. You might be right but it looks like a grey area to me.
support.google.com/googleplay/…/9858738?sjid=1516…

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

I don’t think they would get away with selling games in the app if games were playable on Android

I’m saying they would need a separate app to purchase, install and play Android games.

UnbrokenTaco,

Oh… I see!

I personally prefer the “also play PC games on Android” strategy so was looking at it from that angle.

Ulrich,
@Ulrich@feddit.org avatar

Now that I’m thinking about it they’d probably have to de-list those cross-platform games from the Google app or make them unavailable, which would probably lead to a lot of confusion.

BigBenis, do games w What is the best Sea based game out there in your opinion?

Dave the Diver!

The_Ferry,

Dave the Diver has a very good early game, but eventually the grind just became needlessly tedious in my opinion. I liked going down and getting the fish etc. but the grind in mid to late game is just very time-skip heavy

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