Steam’s business model does prevent it from pricing its consoles like Sony, Xbox, Nintendo, etc. since they need the console itself to be profitable, not just a means of bringing in games sales.
It’s plausible that they’re taking into account an uptick in overall game sales from this console - at least for me, I’ve been purchasing new games mostly off of steam rather than playstation/nintendo ever since I got a steamdeck - but you’re right that they aren’t going to sell at a loss.
Regardless of the price (and whether or not I even buy one), I think it’s healthy to have another “big” player in the console market.
They can’t sell them at a loss without a locked-down ecosystem. Sony learned that the hard way with the OtherOS support for the PS3 that lead to a ton of them being purchased to build cheap supercomputer ls and never spending a dime on games or software to cover the loss.
I think that was overstated. Sure there were some “fun” projects for fun or publicity.
However supercomputer clusters require higher performance interconnect than PS3 could do. At that time it would have been DDR infiniband (about 20 Gbps) or 10 g myrinet.
Sure gigabit was prevalent, but generally at places that would also have little tolerance for something as “weird” as the cell processor.
OtherOS was squashed out of fear of the larger jailbreak surface.
I think that one was also significantly a publicity thing, they made videos and announced it as a neat story about the air force doing something “neat” and connecting relatable gaming platform to supercomputing. I’m sure some work was actually done, but I think they wouldn’t have bothered if the same sort of device was not so “cool”
There were a handful of such efforts that pushed a few thousand units. Given PS3 volumes were over 80 million, I doubt Sony lost any sleep over those. I recall if anything Sony using those as marketing collateral to say how awesome their platform was. The losses from those efforts being well with the marketing collateral.
IIRC, the Deck, at launch, had a limit per Steam account, and it had certain requirements. There’s no reason they couldn’t do something like that here. Sure, it makes it harder to convert console players if they do the same technique, but it could be restricted sales based on something.
Yeah they said they are pricing the Steam Machine at PC market prices, but they do having to contend with reality. There are consoles on the market that are more powerful at a lower price point, it will dampen their sales for sure. I mean most pcgamers probably have more powerful hardware already, what is the incentive? Sure small form factor, but is it worth a premium price to the average pcgamer? Console peasants will turn their noses up at it, so who are they marketing to?
I can see the Steam Frames selling better due to it being a fully untethered VRPC headset that can play more than just VR games. Not to mention you can stream from a more powerful PC to the frames making the battery last much longer and better gfx fidelity.
The Steam Controller has to contend with a flooded market of users used to using one type of controller, so a little bit of an uphill battle there too.
I would be happy to wait and see but idiots online keep trying to insist it’ll be $2,000 even though the hardware isn’t close to worth that much. Some of these people are big influencers and really should know better.
I want it to be a successful product, that I can buy, and will be supported for a useful number of years. $800-1200 feels OK for that. $2000 feels like Apple Vision territory.
Jesus, man: haven’t you ever been excited about a thing before it’s on shelves? Speculated about a sports game before it’s over? Talking about your anticipation is part of the fun.
There are people online who are wrong. I can’t just ignore that, they must be told why they are wrong.
Seriously though it’s a good idea to correct people when they make stupid baseless claims because other people won’t necessarily have the technical understanding to judge whether their claims are based on reality or not.
Many of the people who are doing this are YouTube or Instagram personalities with lots of children following them, I like this product and want it to succeed, and I don’t want children to lose interest in the idea because their favourite idiot instagrammer reckons it’ll cost an absurd amount of money.
I’m utterly confused about why you are upset that people are doing that. There’s absolutely no need for you to engage in it.
Valve will have a good enough overview on the situation and if they think it will hurt sales they can simply make a statement. They can handle it.
It’s interesting to discuss about the price but being upset about „idiots“ who have wrong ideas and playing hero for a multi billion dollar corporation is something I’m confused about.
Nah, it’ll probably be $800-1k. It’s basically a 7600 CPU + RX7600 GPU or whatever, and it’s not really upgradeable. So somewhere between the Series S and X in performance, and not subsidized by game sales.
Is that part of the quote? Because I just saw “priced like an entry level PC, not like a console”, which was more ambiguous than saying “priced like a console”. One man’s entry level PC is $300, and another’s is $1000. I have a mini PC with the power of a PS4 Pro, which I’d easily consider entry level, and it cost me $530 about a year and a half ago.
It's possible I'm just interpreting the quote wrong. I figured they were making the distinction between "console" and "entry level PC" as a way to say "The price isn't set yet, but don't expect this to be $400-500"
Yeah, leaving it ambiguous like this leads to wild speculation, and I think you misquoted that with your own assumptions. You might be right, but Digital Foundry seems to think $400-$500 is possible. Given the cost of my own mini PC, which is older and requires higher margins than Valve can get away with, I would even believe $400-$500. But we just don’t know. Everyone’s best guess for the price of this thing has a low floor and a high ceiling, which will make this all really funny once we know the actual price.
It’s not particularly great hardware. It’s fine, but not great. The most obvious thing is 8GB VRAM, which is bare minimum for modern gaming really. Add in that they’re buying in bulk, that price seems reasonable.
I know they don’t have the same supply chain at all but Apple sells an entry Mac Mini for $600. That makes me feel like a similarly priced Steam Machine is possible.
Apple mini is a hard comparison to make because the cheapest mini is a loss leader. Add a bit of extra ram or extra storage, which you have to do since the base model is very limited and the only way to get it is through Apple because everything is soldered together, then it is suddenly more than a $1k PC. They make the profits up with those upgrades which are practically mandatory and grossly overpriced.
The base M4 model is 16GB ram and 256 GB of storare and it costs $600, “cheapest minipc ever with such performance”.
The 512GB storage model costs $800.
May I point out that 256GB of ssd storage does not cost $200.
The 24 GB model costs exactly $1000.
No matter how much ram prices are ramping up right now, 8GB of sodimm ram does not cost $200…yet.
Anything else above those specs throws the Mac mini into $1k+ territory. It can go all the way up to $2600.
Now, Apple rarely publishes manufacturing numbers to the public. But historically this has always been their strategy. A base product that seems too good to be true (because it is) that leaves buyers wanting a bit more. For which they get skinned alive, price wise. Of course, I can’t be 100% certain that the base Mac mini is sold at a loss. But evidence suggests the $600 mark is priced exactly to act as a loss leader.
You didn’t present one piece of evidence that $600 is a losing price point for the base model (and you even stated that explicitly). All you’ve done is shown that Apple is known for their outrageous markups; something we all can see with our own eyes.
Given they’re greedy enough to markup storage and ram so much; I’m willing to bet they won’t bother with techniques like “loss leaders”. I bet the margins are just extremely tight but that profit is above zero.
That’s just pointing out upgrades carry a large price, not that the base model is at a loss.
Which is a super common strategy in pre built, especially in systems that can’t in theory take third party upgrades. Commonly a mobile platform will charge a hundred dollar premium for like 20 dollars worth of UFS storage. At least at some points PC vendors have done DIMM SPD lockouts to force customers to first party so they can charge a significant multiple of market rate for their parts.
I doubt anything in Apple’s lineup is sold at a loss. They might tolerate slimmer margins on entry, but I just don’t think they go negative.
I’m right now in the process of building an “entry level PC” from components, here defining it as new currently produced off the rack parts, no used, no refurbished, and with a Ryzen 7500F and a Radeon RX7600 “AMD can’t decide whether their cards get an XT or not, so why should I?” I price it out right at $900. To go much below that, I’m gonna have to resort to some jank.
Dumpster dive a core i5 10400F Optiplex, stick a GTX-980 in it, install Linux Mint and you’re making 120FPS in CS:GO for the price of a foot pic.
Your entry level PC is what I would have called high end as little as four years ago. I built a machine in 2021 with a Ryzen 5 5600x and an RX 6800 XT; it still runs the latest UE5 games at high settings. I would call that above and beyond entry level.
It’s a little hard to comment on high end 4 years ago with low end now because technology marches on, but no I don’t think it would.
I also built a PC with similar specs for my cousin (we’ll call her Lila) to that in October of 2022, Ryzen 5600X/Radeon RX6800 (non-XT). Built that rig for my cousin. Socket AM4 B550 chipset, 16GB DDR4-3200 RAM. I had a budget of $1500, $500 alone went to the GPU. The 6800 was two years old at that point. Solid mid-range PC that can handle 1440p gaming with no questions asked…okay one question asked: “are you sure you want ray tracing enabled on an RDNA 2 platform?”
You could go higher. 32 or even 64GB of RAM, a 5800X3D CPU, a Radeon 6950XT or RTX-3090 would provide much more solid 4k gaming with significantly better ray tracing…for a couple more grand.
The machine I built last year, a Ryzen 7700X/Radeon 7900GRE for myself. I spent $2000, I got socket AM5, 32GB DDR5-6000, a 16 thread CPU, and the third-to-highest GPU in the range. This thing does 1440p ultrawide or reaches into 4k with aplomb and ray tracing is worth turning on. You can still go up from here; the 7900XT and XTX are even more powerful and again Nvidia offers even higher, and there’s several CPU SKUs above me. Mine is a mid-to-high end PC, I expect it to be relevant for 5 more years, then I’ll buy a Ryzen 11800X3D on clearance for it.
Meanwhile, the PC I’m building now is for a 12 year old (Lila’s daughter, let’s call her Maggy). 16GB of DDR5-5600, a spec’d down 6-core without integrated graphics, the pack-in Wraith Stealth cooler, and a x600 tier GPU for a solid 1080p experience, more than enough for the hand-me-down 1080p60 monitor she’s gonna get with it. This computer is the same generation as mine, but less than half the price at $900 and change. And I honestly struggle to build much lower than that without resorting to used parts, new old stock, or jank.
High end would be the high end of the market components, right? So RTX 5090 ($2k+) or RX 9070 ($700+). High end CPU would be Ryzen 7 9800X3D for $400. Add a motherboard and copious RAM and you’re looking at $2k+ for all AMD, $3-5k for Nvidia.
Mid tier would be somewhere in the middle, so cut those numbers in half ($1-1.5k). Low end is what you can get away with, so cut the mod tier in half again, though going below $700 would be hard for anything but the most casual of games.
Personally I don’t think I would say that most people would consider a $1,000 PC to be entry level. To me entry level means something that a kid could save up their pocket money for in a reasonable amount of time maybe with a paper route to supplement. I’d say entry level ends at about $700 just to throw a number out there. For $1,000 you could get a PS5 and a PSVR2
But it’s also a handheld console so that doesn’t really track.
An entry level gaming PC doesn’t have to have a battery and it doesn’t have to have a screen which are big expenses. You can’t just take the price of the steam deck and multiply it because so much time has passed between the releases of the two products and they’re not equivalent anyway. It’s an apples to oranges comparison.
On the one hand, i get it. It will be for enthusiasts only if that’s the case. On the other hand, I feel like for the amount of profit this company brings in, I am a little shocked that they don’t even try to cut the price back a bit to sell more. I guess whats the point when you don’t even have to do this at all and it sounds like the entire project is just a fun way to spend some time seeing what you can come up with and sharing that with the people that can afford to buy cool things.
On the one hand, i get it. It will be for enthusiasts only if that’s the case.
Note that I haven’t said anything about what the price will be, just that Valve has stated that it won’t be a loss leader.
I’ve seen rumors that the Bill Of Materials plus Valve’s usual overhead would still result in a system valued at $500, though I haven’t seen the source and am very skeptical of it.
On the other side, XBox is allegedly targeting $1200 on their standardized custom gaming PC, which I doubt would be worth the price, especially with it running Windows.
Oh, I agree. My price is just speculation. Also, Xbox is done. They had a handful of exclusives this year that, as far as I saw, were nothing to sell systems over, and from the looks of it, only Fable is set for next year. As soon as I saw them jump ship with a console and finally share their best games like gears of war, I knew it would only be a matter of time.
That handheld is also windows only and to late to the party, and your right they just went full pc only at a price nobody will pay when you can probably get your own pc that will have little difference. They will be with Sega soon enough and probably use the companies they purchased to continue creating games for everyone else and maybe just focus on the windows store for semi exclusivity after the pc thing fizzles out.
This comment is so silly and yet I keep seeing it everywhere. What do you think the Xbox and Playstations are? What is it that xbox and playstation customers are looking for that this small computer isn’t?
No, it isn’t, in practice. Xbox and PS5 have more in common with my iPhone than my desktop PC or NAS when it comes to being able to do what I want with it.
It will be interesting to see how proprietary the Steam machine is. That’s how I’d end up classifying it as console or miniPC.
A clever enough person can get a useable general-purpose OS running on just about any hardware. The entire point is that it’s user-friendly out of the box.
So user friendly Linux running on it makes it not a console? For a while PS3 was just a couple button presses to get a full Linux distro booted on it. I don’t think anyone would argue PS3 wasn’t a console.
Wrong. MacBooks can dual boot Linux (windows too on the Intel MacBooks), and you can download code from wherever and run it. There’s a terminal you can run commands in. If you want, you can completely fuck it up. macOS is worlds apart from iOS, and MacBooks are more a proper computer than probably even the Steam machine we’re discussing here.
The pedantic argument was about personal computer, not just computer. I believe it was along the lines of push a few buttons, not hack the OS. Sorry I made you mad talking about MacBooks.
That’s not hacking, that’s development. They’re not bypassing locked bootloaders. If Apple pushes for making it impossible to run another operating system that’s another downgrade for sure, but you can still run whatever code you want on them, ergo, it’s a computer. It’s got a terminal, you can write and run your own code, you can download unsigned binaries, you can delete stuff and break the OS, that’s a computer.
Try running anything on an Xbox Series S/X or PS5. Locked bootloader means you’re fucked from the start, and getting past that is hacking.
That’s like saying an unlocked Pixel phone is a PC because you could technically develop an OS for it. Unlocked bootloader doesn’t an open system make.
I think we’re using different terms for hacking. You are using the exploit definition.
Yeah, that could very well be a PC. You could take the guts out, put it in a generic box, attach a monitor and peripherals, and have a Linux PC that drastically outperforms PCs of a couple decades ago, with similar functionality. Those were PCs then, why would the definition change?
Regarding the exploit definition, yeah, that’s the good one IMO. The other one is more akin to “life hacks” or “food hacks” and I think it’s silly. Using a butter knife as a screwdriver isn’t a “tool hack.” Putting Doom on a toothbrush isn’t hacking, provided no exploits were necessary. Putting Linux on a MacBook isn’t hacking just because it lacks documentation and the Asahi devs have to figure some things out before it works.
I would be curious to hear your definition of hacking, though. To me it seems if you’re calling Linux on Mac hacking, then there’s a million other things that are hacking and the word loses its meaning.
If Apple locks the bootloader then I’ll completely agree with you. And while I do agree it appears they’re heading in that direction and it sucks, a MacBook is far more “computer” than a console, even if poorly documented and thus difficult to develop for.
I’m not really following your response. Steam Machine’s feature set doesn’t make the Xbox Series X/S or PlayStation 5 into computers. Yes, they’re x86, but they’re so proprietary and locked down they’re not computers in the colloquial sense.
If the Steam Machine can dual boot Linux, which I bet it can, that’s much more a general purpose computer than either of those consoles.
I think the difference is that the Xbox and PlayStation are locked down to their respective ecosystems with monthly subscription and only one online store. Microsoft and Sony have almost guaranteed return based on that alone. If valve prices this as a loss leader what’s to stop a large corporation to buy 20k steam machines and use them as computers instead of consoles. Then valve is just eating that cost with no return on the other side.
You are correct in that all technically fit the definition of computers. However consumers don’t care about technical definitions or think rationally about purchases. They don’t all do a rational analysis of the products on the market that would accomplish their goals and spend accordingly. They walk into GameStop and buy one of the boxes that makes call of duty show up on their living room tv. Just like the Deck fits the definition of a handheld computer with a built in screen and controllers for playing games but isn’t stealing any customers from the switch.
Deck isn’t selling millions and it’s doing just fine. The Steam Machine will be a small computer box priced as such and there won’t be a single person that decides to buy it over a ps5, and that’s fine. Valve doesn’t have to compete with consoles cause they don’t make consoles.
Valve themselves have said that the Machine will not be priced like a console but like an entry level PC whatever that means. The only people that will notice this to buy it are people who already know what a PC is.
I’d say the Deck isn’t stealing customers from the Switch because they are filling different market niches. The Switch is a portable console with portable Nintendo games made for it. The Deck is a portable PC that gives you access to your entire Steam library on the go.
The GabeCube, however, could absolutely pull some customers of the PS5 and Xbox depending on the pricing - especially with Microsoft’s demands that every part of the Xbox division see a 30% profit margin. The Big Three isn’t going to become the Big Four, but I think it will make some ripples. Steam running in Big Screen mode is effectively a console interface, and it plays Call of Duty just like the consoles. And with Sony finally moving away from console exclusive games, it means that Steam has almost full parity with the libraries of both of the consoles going forward while also offering access to all kinds of indie games that the consoles don’t. The GabeCube can play Call of Duty and Ghost of Tsushima, but it can also play Ultrakill and Bloodborne Nightmare Kart, and neither Xbox nor Playstation can say that.
Edit: And this doesn’t even mention old games. The Steam library has access to all kinds of old games that never get ported to new consoles when a new generation releases, meaning that its library grows in step with the consoles but you can still play your old favorites without having to keep buying them again or keep your old consoles around.
I know my case is specific but having a Jellyfin running on a Steam computer looks to me as good case for having a computer in the living room. Adding a TV applications to Steam such as Netflix is also a case. Then there are people who have their workstation close to the TV so they can use it instead of their laptop and just switch displays with one of these HDMI branching dongles.
Yup, I might try the Jellyfin thing as well. I currently use an app on the TV, but it’s flaky and the TV keeps losing network randomly. Newer TVs at adding ads, so I’ll need an alternative.
Hard disagree. I think that’s exactly who they’re going after. That’s why they added all the console features like CEC, wake on BT, background updates, and a controller-first interface.
I think that’s pretty clearly who they’ve been targeting for >10 years with SteamOS.
I’m not sure cost can be set aside from a price discussion when they’ve explicitly stated it won’t be a Costco rotisserie chicken.
With the number of consoles sold this generation, I’m not sure where the limit is for what people will spend to play the games they want. With console pricing has trailing budget gaming PC’s, I could see a number of people getting a Steam Machine in lieu of the next Playstation or Xbox.
What would be interesting to see in the future is the split between units sold to lifelong console players making a change, and pre existing Steam users with stuffed libraries buying one for the couch. If the latter make up the majority of sales, but they priced it like a chicken, that’ll be a problem pretty quick.
Hopefully it shakes out well and indie game developers reap some well deserved rewards.
I‘m always amazed at the amount of people believing the Steam Machine will be sold for the same or less than the most expensive version of the Steam Deck while being six times as powerful.
The other problem is that the tariffs could be totally different by the time it releases. I fully suspect that the tariffs are the reason that we haven’t got a price yet.
It would be funny if it is noticeably more expensive in the US though like with the Switch 2.
Just playing devil’s advocate here. I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but there are some interesting factors at play.
The Steam Machine won’t need a screen or battery, two of the most expensive components on the Deck. So that can go into better CPU/GPU/RAM instead.
Valve proved they can make a successful physical hardware product with the deck. That gives them a lot of negotiating power with AMD to get the best deal they can.
Unlike with the Deck, they’re releasing three new gadgets in almost all major countries simultaneously. That means they may have already started manufacturing months ago, and are benefiting from economy of scale at an entirely new level.
Sure, I should have clarified not surprised by the power or the price.
It makes sense that as more and more power becomes available, the price doesn’t necessarily have to increase.
Computers (especially CPUs/GPUs/SOCs etc) are becoming more and more powerful all the time, and more and more efficient all the time. It doesn’t mean that the price of them has to rise.
The fact that it’s 6 times as powerful doesn’t mean it should be more expensive than the most expensive version of the Steam Deck. The fact that it’s 6 times as powerful should be entirely expected, given the fact that it’s newer with a larger form factor (meaning that it may not be as limited in terms of heat etc)
Hopefully this is a detailed enough comment to clearly explain my thoughts on this.
I like your posts on the games you’re playing Atticus. And you’re 100% right, people have become much more willing to show how shitty they are. I think they’re more willing because they see how people can still succeed while openly being shitty people, so they no longer assume that being inhuman impedes their personal success.
The only positive I can think of is that it least this makes shitty people easier to point out. It doesn’t make them easier to avoid because we’re unfortunately all bound to cross paths with them.
Some of them I wonder if they got burned trying to be good people once and then just let that sour all their opinions. I suppose that’s a bit of an edgy “all it takes is one bad day” take, but it is something I’ve wondered.
I do agree a lot with your take though. Shitty and horrible people have realized they can get away with being shitty and horrible. So they don’t hide it. Maybe it’s just the cost of me growing up but it’s disheartening to see it happening with so many people.
As you said, it at least makes it easier to root them out, even if we’re forced to interact with them
It’s a Ubisoft game so if you don’t have a copy anymore you can at least rest assured it will be dirt cheap during the next sale (or of course there’s always other options).
It always struck me as odd that they did that with their games. They’d go from a 60$ release to “here’s a 5$ price tag for a month” almost instantly.
I guess I’m not complaining as it lets me enjoy my guilty pleasure games affordably. But still. Doesn’t strike me as a smart business decision
As far as I know. There’s the modern day bit in Black Flag/Rogue, but as much as I liked those I can’t really say they’re Gameplay Segments. More so walking Sims with a few collectibles.
I briefly remember getting to climb around in the modern day in AC Origins but it was really brief
I’ll first admit I predicted Valve wasn’t bothering with a Steam Machine again. I was proven wrong.
But I still absolutely don’t see it being more popular than the Steam Deck. They don’t have the production scale to make them at the Xbox / PlayStation hardware-per-dollar values, so they’ll still be an enthusiast item for people aware they’re buying a prebuilt PC.
So yes, you do already see this; indies target the Steam Deck as a supreme metric for Linux compatibility (and if someone complains HDR doesn’t work on his desktop Mint install, well, whatever). Valve even promotes some store presence to indies that do a bit of work to certify this. We’ve seen lots of games get patches mentioning Steam Deck related fixes - even when the game is a windows build using Proton.
I personally hope you’re wrong again. I think the level of hype should provide a huge stack of orders early on, and I think SteamOS is now SO good that this could go to the moon after the honeymoon period.
Time will tell where between you and I it winds up.
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