Sexist? Why are you trying to make this a gender issue now? lol
Please stop the fanatic bitching. You're not going to make any sort of criticism go away with this.
Are you confused? Where did I make it a gender issue by complaining that they still use gender locked classes? It's an outdated and obsolete concept from decades ago that needlessly cuts down on character customization. I never once claimed this to be sexism related. Maybe work on your reading comprehension before you continue to cry around over your own made up bullshit.
It’s not “obsolete” for set characters, which is what this is if they have pre-established stories and personalities.
You think the PoE devs aren’t getting paid? lol
That’s not how budgets nor gamedev work. It’s not up to individual developers to just add huge amounts of content to a game that hasn’t been budgeted for.
It’s not “obsolete” for set characters, which is what this is if they have pre-established stories and personalities.
It is. Even Diablo had male and female characters while having lore behind them. It's not that hard. They even acknowledged that they could offer it as micro transaction, so this whole "they're actual characters" argument already flies right out of the window.
That’s not how budgets nor gamedev work. It’s not up to individual developers to just add huge amounts of content to a game that hasn’t been budgeted for.
Look. It's not that hard to adjust armor & animations to character models nowadays. A lot of tools do most of the work even all on their own already, assuming you prepared for this with a solid base already. Even game modders do this. You're just looking for excuses.
No, I’m not, because I’m not a PoE2 dev and don’t need an excuse. You’re ignoring the realities of gamedev and insisting it should just work because you say so.
They even acknowledged that they could offer it as micro transaction
If they did, that means budgeting for the additions needed because it would be a product in itself.
No, I’m not, because I’m not a PoE2 dev and don’t need an excuse. You’re ignoring the realities of gamedev and insisting it should just work because you say so.
You continue to make shit up. I never claimed you were a dev, that's also completely not necessary to kneejerk white knight a product like you're doing. I also never claimed "things just work because I say so". Please stop the straw manning.
If they did, that means budgeting for the additions needed because it would be a product in itself.
Throwing all your previous "arguments" out of the window.
I’ve never played PoE, and only watched a friend play it briefly; so nice try, but no, I’m not just stanning for a developer out of some absurd association of one’s ego with a product.
You need to actually learn how development works, and I’m not replying further until you either do that or stop being so aggressive.
Throwing all your previous “arguments” out of the window
If you actually read what I said, instead of obsessing over winning an argument no one cares about, you would realise that was the exact thing I said from the start. Unless you can’t even tell you’ve been frothing at two separate people.
It would be nice if they didn’t, but every class is a character with a semi-established personality and story, so it makes sense for them to be gender “locked”. The NPC characters also react to you differently based on who you play. It’s mainly a difference in character design.
Make them gender neutral, I honestly don't care about their backstory anyway if I'm honest. I want to play "my" character. Imagine they'd be as restrictive in their possible builds because "duh, in their backstory they only used specific spells too".
It looks cool, but frankly I’m far more interested in how it’s going to be monetized. I bought into PoE early access back in the day but stopped playing after a few years because I got fed up with how its game design is compromised in order to accommodate its business model. Specialized stash tabs for currency, maps, cards, etc. are basically a mandatory purchase, since inventory management is hell without them. Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but IMO deliberately introducing game design problems, such as tedious inventory management, so that you can sell the solutions is a scummy practice. The same goes for drop rates, which are frustratingly low in order to force you to trade instead of finding your gear yourself, since in order to trade effectively, you need to buy a few premium tabs. Even though I actually made all these purchases to overcome these artificial hindrances, being squeezed like that left such a bad taste in my mouth that I just couldn’t enjoy the game anymore. If they keep this up in PoE2, I’m going to steer well clear.
…but IMO deliberately introducing game design problems so that you can sell the solutions is a scummy practice.
This isn’t your personal opinion. This is a valid complaint from many avid gamers. I am not one of these avid gamers. However, I have read about this issue from many gamers in this particular space (i.e. non-casual players).
I dunno, the game seems extremely popular and successful despite this, so clearly a lot of people don’t mind. It’s hard to gauge what the majority opinion is.
On the one hand I totally agree, on the other hand I spent like 40€ on PoE for everything I wanted and got way more gameplay out of it than of many full price games.
I also have a lot of playtime in it, but most of it wasn’t really quality time. I tried real hard to like the game, but in hindsight I should’ve given up on it way sooner. Even with all the tabs, inventory management is still a nightmare. I hate the currency system with a passion, I resent the fact that there’s no loot vacuum, I despise having to manually identify items. I don’t like trading, and trying to find my own gear was like being rolled around in a zorbing ball made out of sandpaper. There’s way too much friction everywhere in the system for no good reason. I love the core gameplay, the monsters have cool designs and are fun to kill, the skills feel punchy and satisfying to use… It’s just the overarching structure built around that that ruins it for me. Shame.
In modern ARPGs, you automatically pick up currency just by being near it. In PoE, you have to individually click each currency item to pick it up. Given that PoE has a very sophisticated loot filter system, I find it very strange that it requires so much clicking to pick stuff up. You’ve already decided what loot you want to pick up when you set up your loot filter, so the clicking is mostly superfluous and could be automated. IMO that would make the game play much better, since having to stop to pick up loot interrupts the gameplay and breaks the flow.
That would require every player even new ones to make very complex loot filters and understand what loot is valuable and not to automate it.
Every item in PoE that is automatically picked up doesn't take up inventory space (Metamorph organs, Expedition fragments, Sulphite, Azurite). The concept is that players make an active decision of what they're picking up and that they're aware of what they have because they made an active decision to pick it up.
It doesn't take control of their inventory away from the players.
It also feeds into the dopamine loop, when you get an exciting drop you see it on the ground it doesn't automatically just get sucked into your inventory.
That would require every player even new ones to make very complex loot filters and understand what loot is valuable and not to automate it.
No, it wouldn’t, because it would not be mandatory (just like loot filters themselves aren’t).
Every item in PoE that is automatically picked up doesn’t take up inventory space (Metamorph organs, Expedition fragments, Sulphite, Azurite).
You’re this close to getting it. The extremely limited inventory space in PoE and other ARPGs is a severe design defect, the games would be much better if inventory space was simply infinite. I’ve had a long and complex discussion about this very topic with someone just a day or two ago, so I don’t feel like explaining myself on this point all over again. Feel free to check that if you’re interested.
It also feeds into the dopamine loop, when you get an exciting drop you see it on the ground it doesn’t automatically just get sucked into your inventory.
That would be much better solved by having a pop-up show you the exciting drop as you automatically pick it up. That way the player would still get their dopamine hit without the game also constantly filling their annoyance meter by making them pick up garbage manually.
Yeah, hard to criticize the model when you can just get everything you need for less then the price of a AAA game. It just makes it a “free to try” game, instead of a truly free to play one, and that’s fine.
And besides, in recent leagues they have gone less hard on the specialized stash tabs model, and more on the cosmetic one. They haven’t added a league specific stash tab since delirium league, and that was over 3 years ago.
They’ve said that all microtransactions from PoE1 will carry over to PoE2, which implies that all of those stash tab requirements will still exist, and we can presume they’ll just keep adding more.
Wasn’t that back when PoE2 was supposed to just be a big update to PoE1? I haven’t followed the development news all that closely, but I know that used to be the plan.
Nope, they said it again during the live stream where they had two people play part of the third act this exile con. Every mtx that effects something that is present in both games will be shared between them. I’d guess stash tabs will be included in both games, so those should carry over.
There was a (recent) PCGamer article that specifically called out stash tabs as being something that would be shared… I don’t know if they were basing that on anything or just speculating, but as you note, it seems obvious that that mechanic would be in both games.
It’s all in what you think is worth it. For me, it’s my favorite genre. I have spent about $400 or maybe $500 for over 2500 hours of gaming since the beta in PoE which is way less per hour than most games I’ve paid for up front. It’s worth it to me for playing a fun game for all that time. I also don’t really think they purposely design the game to need stash tabs. It’s just what it is. Look at D4 and all the people complaining they can’t buy more. They obviously didn’t design it like that. It’s just that type of game.
Bottom line for me is I haven’t spent money in that game in years and still play every league because everything I ever bought is still there and will be in PoE2 as well from what they say. I wonder about the tabs…
I actually love PoE’s inventory management, but I play the game “wrong.” I hardly ever trade, except to grab a cheap unique here or there that enables a build. I pick up and manually ID all the items that could be useful, even knowing that there’s only like a 1/10,000 chance that they actually are. I pick up all currency, even portal scrolls. I clear maps at a pace that might be described as “puttering.” And typically I RIP early in maps and start the league over, so most of my playtime is in the story, where successive characters can pick through my stash for junk my old character was hoarding for no reason, that might now have some use for levelling a different build.
You’re basically playing PoE like an incremental game. Your first character advances at a glacial pace, and dies. Your stash is basically prestige currency your next character can draw from to be faster. And so on and so forth.
man I’m glad that works for you but that sounds awful to me. I would make so many more alts in poe if it weren’t for the torturously boring and needlessly long campaign.
Completely disagree. It’s a good game made by good people. You can finish the campaign with just the default tabs, then can buy more tabs if you are enjoying the game.
It is a game developer driven by passion and not corporate profits.
It’s an online ARPG, the campaign is basically just a tutorial, the real meat of the game is in the endgame. So yes, you’re right that you can finish the campaign just fine without making any purchases, but that’s not saying much. Also, the low drop rates will kick your butt throughout the campaign and forever after regardless of whether you make a purchase or not.
I guess, but lots of players do Solo Self Found, ignoring trade entirely. It’s like doing race mode.
Depending on the build you’re going for, it can be more fun. Sucks if you need specific build-enabling uniques that you can’t farm for with div cards, but it works well for lots of builds.
You can still trade between your different characters on the same account, too, so it can be fun to create a character for the items you’ve found.
You get tens of hours of high-quality gameplay for free when you go through the campaign. How is that not saying much? I feel like it is not a bad deal at all. If you like the game when you probably need to drop some money to get most out of the experience. I think that’s fine. Though it is a fine line where they are walking in terms of monetization through inventory management. Would be interesting to know how large portion of the income is from stash tabs etc vs cosmetics.
Many (most) people have not had fun playing the campaign in PoE 1. And we sure as hell hope GGG s doesn’t listen to people who only play through the campaign and quit. Although they don’t spend any money so it shouldn’t be an issue.
I should play the campaign through again. Haven’t played the game after the 10 acts became a thing so essentially I’m just a noob again. I’ve mostly read that people are sick of the campaign because they have already played it a billion times, and not that first timers are having a bad time.
You get tens of hours of high-quality gameplay for free when you go through the campaign. How is that not saying much?
Because the high quality doesn’t come in until way later. When you’re playing through the campaign for the first time, you have neither the knowledge nor the resources to make a proper build, so the gameplay is very bland in comparison to what you can do later. Which means that the fact that the campaign is so long is actually a negative. It’s a tutorial that takes like twenty hours to slog through. This seems to be a common problem with free-to-play games. Warframe devs acknowledge and joke about the fact that the game starts getting good a hundred hours in.
In comparison to how the game is once you get a proper build going, yes, the campaign is bland as hell. Basically all ARPGs are like this due to the way their progression works.
This game is fascinating to me because of the range of reactions I’ve seen from players. Those who like it love it so much they call it a masterpiece, while those who don’t like it really hate it.
It’s also one of the only games I can think of which message (or at least what I personally interpret its message to be) gets less and less impactful the more people praise it. I feel like it only works if you go in blind and only expect a standard shooter, and really suffers from its reputation as a consequence. Expecting a fun shooter and getting this whole thing was a unique experience to me, while a friend of mine that played it expecting to find the experience he read about was super disappointed and hated it.
I think it does what it sets out to do really well. The only thing I view as a shortcoming is that it left me with very little desire to replay it, though I’ve heard that there are lots of different branching story options at different points, mostly based on if your character chooses not to do something that the game implies you’re supposed to do.
It’s not a “fun” game, but it’s engaging and short enough that I think anyone could get through it without getting bored, and I think the metacommentary that you experience from playing it is worth it.
Going in blind is the best. Unfortunately, it’s probably pretty difficult to do, since spoilers are extremely rampant. I don’t even know how I managed to do it. But it really is magical if you go in blind.
Same. When I played, at a couple points I tried to go all the way back to the beginning, when it seemed like the initial mission Walker was assigned was in some way fulfilled or inviable. When the game had absolutely no response to that, it kinda detracted from my appreciation for the message of the game. For all that it has to say about hero fantasies and the player engaging in it, it doesn't have any alternative to that. It needs the player to commit the sins that it wants to denounce.
There are a few points I feel is pretty forced. Okay there is an hostage situation happening right now so I get it. They wanted to help.
But after they found out the hostage is dead and there are rogue elements, they should just turn back and report the findings to their superior so that they can decide whether to send reinforcements or not.
The Spec Op protagonists aren’t good soldiers. They ignored direct orders from their superior multiple times!
I just .... stopped playing it halfway through. It's what the game seemed to want, so that's what I gave it. It didn't hurt that the mechanics were bad and it wasn't actually any fun to play.
There's just so much manipulation inherent in the game that its commentary feels cheap for me. It's like setting out a box of knives for your kids to play with and then scolding them when they do. Hey, asshole, you set up the box and put it out there. What did you expect?
It would be so much more meaningful if the player actually had choices within the game. As it was, I decided to go play something fun.
At least an option to disengage within the fiction would be appreciated. I'm not too keen on this idea that closing the game works as a conclusion. A closed book doesn't have a different story. It's not like Walker will leave his path if you are not playing it. Without a different resolution, even the guilt that they try to lay on the player can't stick as well.
Considering it again, if the goal was to get the player to reflect critically about the sort of game they are participating of, then maybe laying on so thick on how the player, and solely the player, is at fault for pushing it to the end, is if anything counterproductive to that. Players of war shooters seeking a heroic fantasy don't exist in isolation, they exist in a culture that glorifies war and violence, with many parties that profit over it and/or want to incentive it.
To borrow the metaphor, "Walker" really did follow "Konrad's" orders, every step of the way. The author may be absent but the constraints of the story and gameplay are already set, the player can't truly break free without disengaging, and they can't evaluate critically without being engaged.
But the confrontation with Konrad, considering his and Walker's state, really suggests that they believe the issue is all in the players' agency and mindset, rather than the lack of a broader understanding. It claims that the player is at fault for "wanting to be a hero", no comment as to why they believe this is what a hero ought to be like, and what led them to believe that.
then maybe laying on so thick on how the player, and solely the player, is at fault for pushing it to the end, is if anything counterproductive to that.
This is the argument I’ve seen many other creators make that I’ve never bought into. No one’s going to stop playing a game they purchased just because the game is accusing you of being responsible for the actions of the characters within it.
The argument that this creator is making, I think, is an assumption that if you are playing this game, then it’s intrinsically because you’re entertained by war shooters. Now that only really applies through a certain time period. Eleven years on from it’s original release, the only people playing it for the past few years are likely doing so because of its reputation as a meta-critical narrative. But it was released into an environment saturated with similar games based on real locations and real conflict involving real people. And I don’t think the intent was to target the player exclusively or even specifically for criticism, but rather that environment as a whole. Why was the industry uncritically making games glorifying violence inspired by real events (and Games as Literature does point out that the catalyst for this genre–MW4–was more cynical about its violence than the later games it inspired), and why were we enjoying them? And the response doesn’t need to be, and really shouldn’t be, “I should feel bad about this.” The argument is that the response the developers seemed to be aiming for is something like “Am I being mindful about the way my enjoyment of this entertainment reflects or maybe even shapes my view of and interaction with the real world,” if that applies to you. In other words: Do you feel like a hero?
With this interpretation, I disagree that the developers believed the issue “is all in the players’ agency and mindset.” You’re not being scolded for playing through this war shooter, you’re being urged to reflect on why people play through these kinds of war shooters, especially when the violence (as is common for the genre) becomes increasingly militaristic and (arguably) carelessly nationalistic. I concede there’s an argument to be made it’s too heavy-handed with that message or too accusatory in the wrong direction, but that’s just a risk for this type of art and is ultimately a subjective response.
SPOILERS, since there are people who haven't played it yet in this thread.
It seems relevant to consider that Konrad, which is the creator stand-in, is ultimately dead, and Walker, the player, is hallucinating an argument with him, where Walker must admit that he was responsible for everything that transpired. The ultimate conclusion of the game is the developer is basically saying "you did all this yourself, I'm not even here". While the shock of internalizing all that transpired and the player's role in it might shock some people into looking at these games beyond just the action and thrills, what it doesn't do is to guide them to question the premises, framing and conclusions of a game like this. The truth is that the players only have done that which the developers have enabled them to do, and this is especially important to consider when it comes to games that do try to make the player feel heroic for war crimes and historical revisionism. The creators are alive and present,
I definitely can't equate "Do you feel like a hero?" with being mindful about entertainment, especially not in its harsher version "You are here because you wanted to be something you are not". Unlike the video, I don't think we can gloss over that in the same scene the player is told "None of this would have happened if you just stopped". Applied broadly, it seems like what the studio suggests, is that people stop engaging with war shooters entirely. That indulging in this military fantasy at all is inherently reprehensible. That, like Walker, seeking someone to blame for the moral failings of such a story is an excuse to protect your own ego.
But usually, there are people who are responsible for the moral failings of military propaganda.
Earlier in this video, Games as Literature does tie the “none of this would have happened if you’d just stopped” theme (i.e., the “hero” is the cause of the problems or at least a driving force for their exacerbation) as inherited from its direct inspirations: the Heart of Darkness novel and Apocalypse Now. So in the broader scope, the game is still addressing the original works’ anti-imperialist and anti-war themes while also adding the gaming industry meta-criticism.
But you make a good case that Yager added that extra layer clumsily by failing to direct its own additions with appropriate precision. Honestly, when I played this game a few years after its release, I interpreted it much the same way that you have here. But as I was watching this video I felt the pieces fit really well and just thought it was a really interesting perspective.
The general anti-war and anti-imperialist themes as well as the deconstruction of the military action hero that simply charges guns blazing are definitely well done. While I don't think their metafictional message is quite as refined and well directed, it was sure impactful regardless.
I’ve been playing Diablo 4 recently and am missing the helll out of all the options path of exile gives players to work on their gear. I have enjoyed what I’ve seen on poe2, and look forward to playing it eventually.
youtu.be
Aktywne