I love companies swinging between “we have to increase your subscription costs to allow us to offer more great features” and “our customers are excited about our new features so we need to leverage advertising to continue providing them”. Just repeat until everything is loaded with ads AND costs twice as much!
honestly, the thing that gets me here is–who even focuses on Netflix Gaming in the first place? i never hear about stuff dropping in their ecosystem, and so it really feels like an afterthought service to begin with that they’ve bolted onto their main business
Ok no joke, I discovered Dead Cells, one of my favourite rougelike games currently, through Netflix. I was browsing through Netflix mobile, saw that they had a gaming section, and that was one of the first suggested games.
I now own 3 copies of Dead Cells+DLCs (one for every platform I game on). However, I don’t have a Netflix subscription anymore, lol.
They throw a half assed product at the wall without notifying anyone, nothing sticks, so now they’re throwing in ads to recover costs.
I really feel like the C suites of these companies are run by complete morons, without hyperbole. These people are not good at what they’re doing. They just floated to the top during a period where money was free and being bold was more important than being right.
This is one sector where I am actually happy for AI to be available. I want to play a game where the NPC’s can say my character name.
That being said, I also want the voice actors to be compensated fairly. Maybe the guilds can set up a deal where using someone’s voice for training data is included.
I feel like the solution is pretty simple: if you want to AI copy someone's voice and put it in your project, you have to hire them and pay them as normal, and they have to give consent to let the AI use their likeness.
And this has to be on a per-game basis, to. Studios licensing a voice in perpetuity will eventually come back to the same issues.
For AI to truly be a net benefit to our society, it should be used as a tool by the artists to augment the output from the artists. It shouldn’t be a way of replacing them.
If a voice actors job goes from recording each and every line to recording samples for AI and helping to tweak the output, that’s fine. But the compensation stays the same.
That’s how it improves our world. Makes the human’s job easier without replacing them or affecting their compensation.
The way it’s currently on track to be used is how it improves the lives of the wealthiest at the expense of everyone else. No amount of futurist techno-jerking should distract from that. These are not tools for us to benefit from in any significant sense.
I’ve been trying to find the actual text of the deal to see if it fucks over the actors or not, but I can’t find the actual deal, just articles referencing it
You don’t need AI to do that, that kind of system can be made independent of AI. It’s just not worth doing for this one use case vs using it for a whole voice.
Honestly, the problem is that “AI” is a dumb term that is way over used in these situations. Outside of Science Fiction, AI has generally been used to describe what “the next big thing” computers can do.
Using a term like “Large Language Model” to refer to ChatGPT explains what it actually does. Or Deep-Learning Text to image models for the image generation.
I remember playing around with TTS on a Apple ][ plus as a kid, there is nothing new about that, but using statistical models to have them imitate a voice is new, but just lumping them all in with Artificial Intelligence, is just dumb.
I feel like this is really a consequence of what many called the “bad deal” the SAG/AFTRA merger was years ago. When the union can effectively exclude you from the bargaining process and arbitrate you to it, what’s the point? They’re behaving like a cartel, and not like a union. This is not praxis, brothers and sisters!
I sympathize with the voice actors but at the same time I think this is a losing battle. I expect AI voices to be widespread and employment opportunities for voice actors to diminish (although I think high-budget games will still use human voice actors for a while). Maybe being open to AI is actually the best case scenario for getting at least some of the money involved.
So tech outpaces legislation, as it is wont to do since legislation is notoriously slow, and so because of that our reaction should be to throw our hands up and not even try? Perhaps you don’t sympathize as much as you think you do.
I don’t think this is a case of tech outpacing legislation because I expect that ultimately legislation will be rather favorable to tech. There’s too much money to be made using AI for the government to extend copyright protection to training data.
(Plus, I sympathize with voice actors in the sense that I’m sad that a lot of them will lose their jobs, and that’s independent of what I think about AI development and copyright law.)
Horse drawn carriage drivers, industrial seamstress, miners. Being supplanted by technology is a tale as old as time. The only difference is the perceived uniqueness of creative jobs holders that look down on the then blue collar work, now suffer the same sort of fate as them. Eventually the only work to be done is gonna be performed by AI. With the economy being trended towards AI buying other AI products. Ironically, the only work humans be doing at will be back to heavy labour jobs, with the ones at the top being AI.
They’re not giving up though, what they’re doing is getting ahead of it. Assuming their deal is favorable for their members, they’re making it so that anyone who wants SAG-AFTRA synth voices has to go through their contracted company which they have collective bargaining power or strike an equal or better deal. Along with blacklisting companies from SAG-AFTRA work that use non-union synth voices.
This is way better than leaving actors on their own to bargain with companies, which would have definitely happened. Rather than have companies wear individuals down and drive pay down, they get to dictate the terms, together.
This is the one career I wanted to do something in. I started voice acting years ago.
Honestly just seems so pointless lately. Half the time voice over artists are not even recognized or even paid a decent amount. Now they wanna just copy and paste our voice.
Even the recognized ones don’t get paid well. Weird that SAG would sign off on this so easily when SAG actors and writers striked for months with AI being a big part of the issue.
Because voice actors are not considered real actors by SAG-AFTRA. Despite the fact that doing voice over work is typically far more grueling than being in front of a camera. I’ve never met a VOA who wasn’t looked down on by other SAG members. Even by fucking extras. “You just stand in a booth and read lines.”
Guarantee none of them have experienced being on your 10th take in the booth, with the previous line fed to you by the Audio Engineer through your cans, and the next line is whatever comes next alphabetically. Its just as valid as any other form of acting. People on a high horse because of their job is the most asinine shit. Its all work.
It’s why I love actors who’ve done voice over work. Like most of the Star Trek cast has in one form or another, whether thats for Star Trek Online or another game entirely. All of them saying that it was mind numbing work and it drained them but that they now have enormous respect for people who do that.
While most people look at Critical Role and just go “oh it’s easy!” as if you aren’t spending 4 hours doing exertion noises for climbing fucking stairs.
Question, what do conventional actors fall under when they voice for something like a Disney or Pixar movie? What would be the protections from using Seinfield’s voice if he did a new Bee movie? Or are they protected by SAG Actor and its just the nerd VOs that are fucked?
Couldn’t imagine an A-lister ever voicing a AAA game if they fell under those rules.
I occasionally record readings and narrations of dumb things on Mastodon but they’re usually just super quick. Like so quick that I don’t even bother fucking with noise reduction or anything. Just get bored and go “I LIEK THIS POEM”
I’ve done voice acting before, and honestly, you’re right on the money.
So many people don’t even notice if the voice work in a piece of media is good/bad.
Playing one game, several of the main characters sound like they were recorded in completely different rooms.
And I’m sat here like a mug with a deadened setup, wondering why I bothered.
When that little detail is paid, I can see games absolutely jumping on the machine generated bandwagon.
I’ve been trying to figure out a deadened set up for a while. My closet isn’t big enough as a gay man, no. I’m not going back in. I need one of those lil curtain thingies that create a dead space.
But yeah I agree. Resident Evil 4 killed me for that. So many of the characters sounded amazing and then Ada just stuck out like a sore thumb. I don’t mean because of a poor performance or anything either. I wasn’t totally happy with it but I blame the game director for that, not her for doing what they asked of her. But everyone else was done in a professional set up and her quality is NOTICABLE different. It fucked up the entire DLC for me and I haven’t been able to really enjoy it.
Doing voice acting and then hearing all the ways people mess up in stuff is astounding. Not that I don’t, mind you. I’m not perfect. But my god do you notice all the major errors in every game out there once you start working a bit in the field.
I’m torn, because on the one hand, the logistics of constantly recording new lines for minor stuff is really annoying. Imagine you’re playing a live-service game that really needs a certain balance patch, but that balance patch is reliant on a very slight change to a voice line (for instance, reducing the time it takes for a character to perform a special attack. To take an Overwatch example, maybe a certain archer is voicing his ultimate ability too quietly). Having to call someone in just for that is costly and unproductive.
But, we’re talking about delivering the source of someone’s work and livelihood (as well as all their creative influence, exaggerative tones, and delivery) into an algorithm. The line where it would go beyond convenience into worker-reduction efforts is going to be hard to draw.
I would rather that the voice actor retains the rights to their voice, even if it’s put into an AI algorithm. Thus, if the developers want to make a small change to a voice line, they still need to get approval for some AI-generated correction - and the actor would have the right to say “No, that one sounds terrible. I’m only going to agree to re-delivering this one myself.” Similarly, actors could approve limited sets of explicitly-defined live AI usage, for instance pronouncing the player’s name. Granted, some companies would become annoyed at actors being too inflexible, just like they have disagreements with actors today.
I’m definitely worried about too much signing-over of voice identity. I think it’s very easy to cut humans out of the equation that way, which not only damages the health of the industry, but also reduces creative output.
While I agree, the corpos dont and will fight tooth and nail to cut the cost anyway.
So unless the US gets the stones to collar and muzzle these businesses (they wont) we have to work around these monsters who will bite your arm off to skip lunch
In my mind, they should be paying the actor the same for the new lines regardless of whether they opt for them to come back in and re-record or use AI to generate the new line. The actor’s product (their voice) isn’t worth any less, but the company could save money by streamlining the creation of a new line through simplified logistics. This way the company has some benefit while preserving the actor’s livelihood.
Of course there’s no way these companies are going to want to pay full price for these new lines, since it’s an obvious point where they can pressure performers to accept a lower rate.
I think it would be better for all involved if we figure this out now. Existing Voice Actors should not have their performances used without their explicit consent. Any performances used by current or past voice actors must have explicit consent and compensation. “New” voices generates by AI must be sufficiently differing from existing performances and any existing performances used in the generation must have consent by the original voice actor.
New creations from existing training data from an actor should have some type of royalties involved. The complication with that is the AI tools are largely a black box and it can be murky on where things come from.
Thats a solid and necessary addition. This comment section alone has already done more than any regulators. Its like they’re afraid to at least lay down protective ground rules so VAs can continue to eat. Too much profit salivation.
That's correct, but it's important to distinguish something explicitly here. The voices may not be copyrightable, but the dialogue is, as long as it's not also generated by AI (i.e., dynamically generated). Also, the trained model that generates the voice is still proprietary: only its product (and only the sound itself, not the words if the speech is from a script) can be openly used.
Existing performances must not be used to train models. If you wish to train a model you should need explicit consent and hire an actor to record such data. The actor should also receive royalties when the resulting model is used for a commercial purpose.
See, minus the royalty part (in most cases) this has been how VOCALOID, SynthV and the like has more or less operated for two decades now.
This solution shouldn’t be that hard, just create an AI model for every individual “voice” or character and then license it for use or receive royalties on it.
They’ll probably use it as filler for side dialogue and then have the VA do all the main lines to really nail the human presence, since AI isn’t as good at emotional inflection.
Honestly this would be a good method. Limit AI voice acting to only single use NPC such as Town folk when you visit a town and then have like shopkeepers or party members or the main character actual voice. You aren’t expecting much out of those temporary characters anyway so them having weird Oddity voices isn’t going to be super jarring for the environment. Plus it will help you as the player realize which characters are supposed to be part of the story and which ones are there for just Scenic effect
I mean even main characters could have AI generated dialogue, you have the VA do the voice until there is enough sampling data to train a model on, and then you can use that for any small or side content.
Then just have that characters AI model be owned by the actor and use of the voice gives them royalties for it. Then you can supplement actual lines with generated banter, etc. While still giving the VA compensation for their voice and likeness.
To be fair, in November SAG-AFTRA did also make a deal for movies and TV for AI likenesses being used in projects. However, I do think that video games and voice acting in general are a bit of a different beast since they’re often already overlooked and underpaid.
I mean the union fought tooth and nail and had a vote on the AI deal for their silver and big screen members and while I can kind of understand that the union leadership probably went, “Well we have a blueprint from our last vote, we should be good to just use it again” type of thing, I can understand why the VA members would be a bit upset and feel disrespected in not having the same courtesy applied with allowing them to have the same review and vote.
I like… don’t even have an idea in my head of what we’re talking about. Is it like Gamefly for renting video games? Is it like Epic Games Store, a pathetic attempt to cash in on Steam by offering the exact same service but worse? Is it like Amazon App Store, a pathetic attempt to copy the Google App Store but worse? Is it games you play on your TV with the TV remote? (I’m pretty sure I have seen one of two of those on Netflix that my kids played.)
I could look it up but they might see that as interest, and I’m really not interested. Just OOTL.
You have access to a bunch of games accessible through the Netflix app or directly through your app store. Most of the games are available elsewhere and pretty solid like Moonlighter, Terra Nil, Oxenfree, Spiritfarer, Storyteller, Into the Breach. But they are (were?) ad-free full versions of the paid counterparts
So weird… I wonder why they have this whole thing that I had no idea about. I’ve been using Netflix since they were a DVD rental service and I’ve been gaming since the days of Wing Commander and King’s Quest. You’d think I’d be the target demographic yet it’s news to me that it even exists.
EDIT: Oooooh, it’s mobile only. I get it now. It’s really obvious in the app but I never watch Netflix on my phone. And yeah, it’s basically the Amazon app store all over again.
"It’s suggested that Netflix would only introduce ads to users who already see ads as part of their subscription, which is the case for users on the lower-priced ad-supported models."
I think people here either did not read the article or completely missed that sentence.
On Android, not including stuff you can also get outside netflix:
deaths door
into the breach
shovel knight pocket dungeon
Poinpy (from the downwell dev)
Spiritfarer
Moonlighter
There’s also a few things that you can get through Netflix that’s also available outside of it, like dead cells, world of goo and btd6
Overall it’s my go to place when I feel like finding a game to kill some time. They have a lot more than that but those are some of the higher quality ones
videogameschronicle.com
Aktywne