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eezeebee, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now
@eezeebee@lemmy.ca avatar

I’m kind of confused about the whole early access thing and why devs do it. Is it to get support and funding to finish the project?

Marighost,
@Marighost@lemm.ee avatar

Basically, yeah. If your game is in a playable state, launching in early access allows devs to get feedback from the community, who help shape the game all the way to the full release. Generally EA games are discounted, with the expectation that it isn’t finished or polished, full of bugs, etc.

eezeebee,
@eezeebee@lemmy.ca avatar

That makes sense and I hadn’t considered the feedback aspect. I can see how that must be helpful, especially for a solo developer. Thanks!

Zahille7,

In almost all the EA games I play, there’s some kind of “bug report” feature, either somewhere directly on the screen while you’re playing, or in the pause menu or something.

Chee_Koala,

Adding to the other reply to this: You can get natural growth of fans and wishlists, you can get free media attention so your brand/gamename grows in popularity, you can receive enthusiasm from randoms about work you have been keeping to yourself for a while, which can help motivate. I mean I’m super hyped about my own videogame project, but having other people be hyped about it is very rewarding :-). I used to shun early access until they became 1.0, because I got burnt a couple times. But If the dev(s) are transparent and communication is ok, I don’t really care anymore for the same reason as this dev is pointing out: “It’s done when it’s done” is good enough in 95% of the cases for me.

eezeebee,
@eezeebee@lemmy.ca avatar

I’m dabbling in game development myself, and that’s part of why I asked the question originally- I’d be terrified to put something out there for the public if I wasn’t already confident it was ready. Early access seems like a double-edged sword. But you list some good points about the benefits of doing so.

By the way, I am interested to hear about your game project if you would like to share some details.

Chee_Koala,

I think the crucial part is natural fanbase growth… As a solo dev, your marketing budget is gonna be so extremely tiny, and releasing with 0 marketing is setting yourself up for disappointment so, it has got to come from somewhere. Maybe EA is not a necessity, but having a steam page is. Confidently typing this while not having a steam page to show for it, but you know what the Dutch say: the best captain is ashore (de beste stuurlui staan aan wal)

It’s gonna be extremely terrifying 😅

elxeno,

AFAIK u get a half release before to get some attention and media/youtubers coverage and people to test your game and make suggestions.

Then you get another release when exiting EA (notifies whishlist and steam gives boosts visibility to released games for a short while and it gets extended if it goes well)

Badeendje, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

Excellent write up by the publisher and good that they warned Greg of the shit storm ahead.

I bought it, played it. It was already fun. The patches fixed some of the issues that made playing it not fun… so good choices there. I left him some small feedback on the game and some words of encouragement in the hopes that helps.

I hope he can continue his development to deliver his vision for the game. I feel like I got my moneys worth already and I’ll spin it up when the next series of updates are done.

Till that time I just saw Timberborn (another one of these jewels) had a cool update so I’ll go and try that or one of the mysiad of other cool Early Access games that still receive a lot of love.

Zahille7,

Going Medieval is another colony sim, more akin to Rimworld, but it’s constantly getting updates and patches. They’re almost done with their roadmap.

Katana314, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I felt this way about Back 4 Blood. The game came out, it was genuinely fun and had a good amount of content, and they added DLC that expanded the game while also not ruining things for anyone who hasn’t installed it.

But there was an unending cry from gamers that it was getting “abandoned”. You can still gather 4 players, or fewer with bots, and have a good time. It’s a different appeal from Left 4 Dead with the card system, and that was fine to me.

Ab_intra,
@Ab_intra@lemmy.world avatar

Agreed. I think it was an OK game but that doesn’t mean that the devs should work to their death to make it totally what I or other people think it should be.

brsrklf, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

If someone complains about buying a finished game and not getting more of it later, they’re idiots and there’s nothing you can do but ignore them.

Publishers that do ultra-early access/roadmaps/live services with promises of content/bug fixes/trust me we’re making the rest of the game later, are clearly to blame for the mess too. They’re the ones poisoning the well.

But plenty of games release in a final state and that’s okay. They have to be firm about it though.

Chee_Koala,

It’s a tough line to walk. You want to create reasonable hype and you have an idea where you want to go, but as you correctly point out, it’s really easy to over promise and under deliver.

Churbleyimyam, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Spend years releasing unfinished and incomplete work.

Gamers expect work to be unfinished and incomplete.

🫵

IsThisAnAI, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Every single aspect of video game development is trash. From executives to absurdly whiney and entitled gamer population.

BilboBargains, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Remove ‘gamers’ and insert ‘bloated management’.

cheddar,
@cheddar@programming.dev avatar

Is it bloated management who complains on social media and forums?

whotookkarl, (edited )
@whotookkarl@lemmy.world avatar

Gamers are not asking devs to work until burnout on social media or forums, that’s management and usually in person or department/company policy and procedure.

Edit: more specifically to the article for solo devs they are talking about critics complaining they should have made something bigger which is not a bad problem to have for securing funding for future games if people like your art enough to request more and doesn’t require working burnout hours.

awesome_lowlander, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

The game is released, for a certain amount of money. If people don’t like what they get for their money, they simply should not buy it.

The problem does not lie with gamers. It lies with ‘AAA’ developers who publish unplayable cashgrabs that need years of bugfixing before reaching a playable state, thus leading to expectations of ongoing development. Not that Early Access has helped in that regard.

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Oh I meant that, that’s why I worded it that way.

vasus, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Very reasonable, I hope the dev sticks to his guns and keeps a manageable pace. I feel that it’s right to expect content updates coming in if the game is marked early access, but so long as you don’t pull a Valheim, people shouldn’t be mad at you

AlexWIWA,

God I wish valheim had been finished

Kecessa,

Isn’t it still being worked on?

Zahille7,

It is. It’s just slow, and you know how G*mers are about slow dev cycles.

“Dead game! Dead game!” Then how come they just released a huge update for it with the next entire biome a few weeks ago?

AlexWIWA,

It’s been four years and all of my friends moved on. I still enjoy it but there’s only so much fun to be had solo

AlexWIWA,

I think it’s going to be like 7 Days to Die and just never be completed. I’m hoping they’ll eventually do one big announcement or final release that will get my friends to log back in

makyo,

I guess I’m OOTL - what happened with Valheim?

simple,

Nothing that bad, but the updates are insanely slow and the roadmap of things they promised in 2021 took 3-4 years instead of one. At this rate the game could spend a decade in early access.

Zahille7,

True, but it is still being worked on.

Another EA game that I was really into a couple years ago until they abandoned, and now they’re starting back up on it again, is Starbase.

Mad_Punda, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Especially with this game, where the dev and publisher have actively worked to manage expectations before early access. That it’s not at all complete yet. There were so many people super hyped, comparing it to total war and what not. So they made it clear this game is on another scale.

If it had been the other way around, if they had hyped up the game like crazy and made huge promises about the post EA launch content, then yeah, it would be a failure.
And I suppose in practice it also would’ve been a “failure” if they hadn’t managed expectations, due to the hype and the general expectation from post launch content these days… (sigh)

But what we got is exactly what was promised, so what on earth is that Hinterland guy talking about.

Barbarian,
@Barbarian@sh.itjust.works avatar

Good thing I double-checked to see if someone else made this point yet.

Yeah. Not only that, but the splash screen when you launch the game makes it incredibly clear that it’s one guy called Greg (very humanizing) and he’s working on it, but he’s not some superhero.

vorpuni, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now
@vorpuni@jlai.lu avatar

I don’t care about extra content, it is a welcome addition for games with long-term support like Stardew Valley. If the dev and publisher have a lot of money I do expect long-term bug fixing.

Dariusmiles2123, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

I’d almost love if games were released and getting no updates after that. But only if the games are released in a complete state.

I hate the fact that you shouldn’t play some games as soon as they are released, because you’d be playing the inferior version.

That needs to change.

ech,

Eh, EA can certainly be a problem, but it’s also an incredibly useful resource for devs operating in good faith, opening up the field for talent that would otherwise be priced out of making a game at all. Personally, I’m ok ignoring money grabs if it means the barrier of entry for resource starved talent is lowered.

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Yeah same. I mean EA is a bet and you can’t expect to win every bet ever. Just don’t wager money you’d miss if it was completely lost.

CosmoNova,

Manor Lords is early access. At least one patch is to be expected. And of course the publisher is absolutely right. If my memory serves me well one dev developed the game all on his own so far and the challenge of meeting expectations after being a massive success is huge. Hiring more people to get developments going is likely necessary but expanding takes time. Some players have unrealistic expectations in general but even more so when it comes to small indie productions.

scops,

I just had flashbacks to Dead State. It was a AA title written by one of the guys from Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines so I was watching it closely during development.

Suddenly, it went from EA to full release. I was surprised, but picked it up without reading many reviews.

I enjoyed the game and put maybe 15 hours into it, but then I had to move and had to pack up my PC for a few weeks. By the time I got settled and booted it up, it had gotten a massive patch which fixed a ton of bugs, filled in missing content like item descriptions and a bunch of other polish that would typically be done during pre-launch.

Meanwhile, one of the devs had gotten into a high profile pissing match with the community over accusations they had rushed it out the door. I normally try to sympathize with devs over a reactive community, but I couldn’t help feel like I got punished for buying the game at launch and experiencing those relatively non-replayable opening hours in a non-optimal (Dead) state.

ech, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

The dev seems to have a good publisher that’s on their side, which is nice to see. I find it bizarre that this rebuttal comes in response to the CEO of Hinterland Studios, the devs of Long Dark, which was in early access itself for ages. Dunno if they think they’re above it all now, but you’d think they would at least be sympathetic of devs facing that kind of shit. Probably just CEO saying CEO shit. Hopefully the Manor Lords dev doesn’t let it get to them much, or at all.

umami_wasbi, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

Until they ditch the “live service” model, this will continues. How many big title games today are really sold in a complete no BS state where DLC actually means extra contents? No much I guess.

That stems from the revenue model, and not by gamers.

yeather,

I feel like Paradox games falls into this category, problem is everyone is so used to playing the okder title with all of the dlc that people feel the new title is barebones and unfinished.

mrvictory1,

That is because DLCs add a lot of value to Paradox games (excluding recent controversies) so people wait then grab all DLC in a bundle discount.

errer,

Yeah but if you wanna buy say, Stellaris, with all its DLCs, you’re looking at at least $100-$200 depending on the sales. You pay for that bigger game.

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Definitely. Age of Wonders 4 was awesome to play at launch, but it definitely feels more “complete” now that all 4 DLCs are out. It feels like it was clearly hacked to pieces to be sold separate.

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Minecraft falls squarely in this category. I paid 15$ some 12 years ago and am still getting a yearly update for free.

And yet if you go in the MC community, one of the most common complaints people have is that the updates are never enough and the Devs are lazy etc… I guess this goes to the point of this article, people can easily be trained to have unrealistic expectations.

I’m not crying for Mojang/Microsoft but I can’t imagine how it feels to be an indie dev and have people shit on you because the work you do for free is not good enough.

2ncs,

And yet if you go in the MC community, one of the most common complaints people have is that the updates are never enough and the Devs are lazy etc… I guess this goes to the point of this article, people can easily be trained to have unrealistic expectations.

Tbh I think a big part of the problem is Mojang’s failure to communicate with it’s players, less so the lack of features being added.

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

I don’t know, they have an annual event, affiliate youtubers who distill the news as they come, “leakers” on twitter. You can’t really expect a studio to pull a 1.16 every year, but short of that it seems there is no way to please the MC community.

simple,

Minecraft is a special case. They promise a lot and what we got is a version of the game that’s microtransaction hell. Texture packs, mods, maps, etc all cost outrageous amounts of money in the console/windows10 version of the game. The community is mad because they’re clearly spending way more money on making content for the store than doing any actual updates for the game. The most we get is something like a new mob every six months…

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

microtransaction hell

As far as i know the full game is entirely playable without spending a dime more than the price of the game. You can join an infinity of multiplayer servers or play the game solo from start to finish and beyond, and you still get the yearly update which, despite your statement, includes much more than “a new mob every six months”.

I personally don’t mind that cosmetics and entirely optional non-game-advantaging additional content are paid, as it is what bankrolls the studio to keep pumping out free updates every year. How do you propose they finance this otherwise ?

simple,

As far as i know the full game is entirely playable without spending a dime more than the price of the game.

That’s not the point, they took something that was free and community-driven and locked it down so you can only install things from the store where everything costs money. Only specific people even have access to make mods in that version.

as it is what bankrolls the studio to keep pumping out free updates every year.

They’re not a small indie company. Mojang earns hundreds of millions of dollars per year. They can afford to do something with the game other than pumping out dozens of microtransactions a month. They could optimize the good version of the game but actively choose not to. They promised a proper modding toolkit for the game but never made it because it would harm their paid store. The game practically lives off its modding community and in the last 10 years they’ve done nothing for them.

Zos_Kia,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

I don’t know, the bedrock version started in 2011 way before Microsoft bought the studio. It was never free or community-driven, it is cheaper than the Java version, but it doesn’t have access to the free modding community. This sounds like a relatively good non-toxic deal to me, either you pay upfront or you suffer the micro-transactions. If you don’t have the money, you can still play the full game for a relatively low price.

Your implication that they don’t optimize or develop new content for the base game is simply unfounded and proven wrong every year like clockwork.

Gigasser,

I’d recommend the java version

tyrant, do games w Devs should not be "forced to run on a treadmill until their mental or physical health breaks", says publisher of Manor Lords, citing how gamers seem to be trained to expect endless content work now

It depends on the game. If I buy a game from a smaller publisher I expect it to be a complete work with full story line. Unfortunately… When I buy from a large publisher I expect to be getting a ¾ complete game that will give me expansion packs.

This isn’t the case with Nintendo games though. I feel like and Nintendo game is just done and any extras are… Extra.

dinckelman,

Read back what you just wrote, and go for a walk to let it brew for a bit.

Why the fuck would anyone slave their only life away, for any employer?

tyrant,

I’m not saying anyone should work without pay. I’m saying that with the way publishers release games I expect AAA releases to be unfinished works at this point.

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