rockpapershotgun.com

danielhanrahantng, do gaming w Why are there so many bloody roguelikes or roguelites, and what really makes a game roguish?

Just random level design. And permadeath I do not think it’s necessary.

danielhanrahantng,

Or random layout

StitchInTime, do gaming w Why are there so many bloody roguelikes or roguelites, and what really makes a game roguish?

You ask an excellent question, one that I feel you already know the answer to. From my understanding, the term is unfortunately broadly overused for any procedurally generated game, to the point where the original meaning has been lost to time.

colournoun,

How many gamers today have even played or know what the original Rogue is?

Malgas,

Not enough. Omega, ADoM, Angband, Crawl, and Nethack are roguelikes. Nearly every game mentioned in this article is a roguelite.

jansk,

I would agree with this definition. If the game does not visually resemble Rogue even a little at a glance, in what sense is it “like” Rogue

JillyB,

Man I wish we had better terminology for this type of game. Roguelike and roguelite give the same energy as “Doom-clone” for every fps in the 90s. Later we called them FPS games. That genre has since been refined into tactical shooters, arcade shooters, milsim, etc. Meanwhile, we’re still stuck calling all games that have randomized runs “rogue-likes”. Being pedantic about the definition doesn’t make this situation better.

swelter_spark,
@swelter_spark@reddthat.com avatar

My bf calls all isometric action RPGs Diablo rip-offs.

Kolanaki, do gaming w Why are there so many bloody roguelikes or roguelites, and what really makes a game roguish?
@Kolanaki@pawb.social avatar

What makes a game roguish?

  • Random level design
  • Death is permanent
  • Turn based gameplay
  • Grid based movement

Most modern roguelikes tend to only have the first two of these, tho. But those are the 4 main elements of the original game for which the genre derives its own, Rogue.

And Rogue-lites tend to make progression persist after death, at least partially. Such as with the unlockable weapons and things in Hades, while the boons and other abilities are pick ups you only have until death untill you pick them up again the next run.

HubertManne, do gaming w Why are there so many bloody roguelikes or roguelites, and what really makes a game roguish?

Its sorta funny hearing the term for me because I can’t away from thinking about ascii dungeon crawls when I hear roguelike.

njm1314, do games w Valve block Steam game with queer art in Russia after state censor attacks it for “promoting non-traditional sexualities”

I don’t really know why they feel they need to Cave to Russian pressure here. They have all the cards. Russia will never ever stop Steam from running in Russia. If they try to cut off Counter-Strike the entire country would collapse immediately. I’m 100% serious that is not sarcasm at all.

ChaoticNeutralCzech,
@ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org avatar

What’s preventing Russians from hacking Counter-Strike and making their own “Кантр-Страйк” servers?

cepelinas,

Exactly nothing.

ChaoticNeutralCzech,
@ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org avatar

I mean, there’s DRM but that hasn’t stopped them ever before…

Do they stand to lose something if they switch? I don’t understand CS:GO economics, maybe there is a sanction-evading money flow via weapon and skin trading on Valve’s servers?

Truscape,

Unlikely? There are 3rd party websites that allow liquidation, but that’s all outside of Valve’s sites. The closest you can get to liquidation officially is buying Valve hardware like a Steam Deck with your store credit, but they don’t ship steam hardware to russia.

ChaoticNeutralCzech,
@ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org avatar

I wasn’t saying the exchange for money happens on Valve’s servers, but it’s Valve who oversees everyone’s inventory. You could hack the game and run a third party account server and give yourself all the knives but they would not be recognized by Valve and thus worthless, unless you convince exchanges that your server is trustworthy and has assets behind it.

Truscape,

Ah in terms of the Steam inventory API, it’s completely unregulated. All purchases are steam platform only, but trades between players are unmonitored (with the exception of requiring both sides to authenticate the trade).

Itdidnttrickledown, do games w Valve block Steam game with queer art in Russia after state censor attacks it for “promoting non-traditional sexualities”

Breed for your dictator russia. Produce meat shields at maximum efficiency.

vga, do games w Valve block Steam game with queer art in Russia after state censor attacks it for “promoting non-traditional sexualities”

To simplify things a bit: companies exist to make money, that’s their prime directive. Governments exist to make and enforce rules.

If Steam is allowed to operate freely in Russia, the government is not doing its job.

CileTheSane, do gaming w Why are there so many bloody roguelikes or roguelites, and what really makes a game roguish?
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

The popularity is because they are easy to pick up and put down. If I want to go back to an RPG that I haven’t touched on months I need to try to remember where I was going, what my build was doing, and how to deal with the things I was fighting. If I want to go back to FTL that I haven’t played on years I just start a new run anyways, and all my ship unlocks are there if I want them.

Ephera,

I would argue that a substantial reason for their popularity is also just that devs have fun when developing them.

With most other genres, you’ve seen the story a gazillion times, you’ve done each quest a thousand times etc… It just gets boring to test the game and it becomes really difficult to gauge whether it still is fun to someone who isn’t tired of it.

Meanwhile with roguelikes, the random generation means that each run is fresh and interesting. And if you’re not having fun on your trillionth run, that’s a real indicator that something needs to be added or improved.

lvxferre, do gaming w Why are there so many bloody roguelikes or roguelites, and what really makes a game roguish?
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

There are a thousand definitions and mine is just one among many, I’m aware. This is not a “right vs. wrong” matter, it’s how you cut things out.

For me, a roguelike has four rules:

  1. Permadeath—can’t reuse dead chars for new playthrus.
  2. Procedural generation—lots of the game get changed from one to another playthru.
  3. Turn-based—game time is split into turns, and there’s no RL time limit on how long each turn takes.
  4. Simple elements—each action, event, item, stat etc. is by itself simple. Complexity appears through their interaction.

People aware of other definitions (like the Berlin Interpretation) will notice my #4 is not “grid-based”. I think the grid is just a consequence of keeping individual elements simple, in this case movement.

Those rules are not random. They create gameplay where there are limits on how better your character can get; but you, as the player, are consistently getting better. Not by having better reflexes, not by dumb memorisation, but by understanding the game better, and thinking deeper on how its elements interact.

I personally don’t consider games missing any of those elements a “roguelike”. Like The Binding of Isaac; don’t get me wrong, it’s a great game (I love it); but since it’s missing #3 (combat is real-timed) and #4 (complex movement and attack patterns, not just for you but your enemies), it relies way more on your reflexes and senses than a roguelike would.

Some might be tempted to use the label “roguelite” for games having at least few of those features, but not all of them. Like… well, Isaac—it does feature permadeath and procedural generation, right? Frankly, I think the definition isn’t useful, and it’s bound to include things completely different from each other. It’s like saying carrots and limes are both “orange-like” (carrots due to colour, limes because they’re citrus); instead of letting those games shine as their own things, you’re dumping them into a “failed to be a roguelike” category.

pruwybn,
@pruwybn@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

So would you consider Slay the Spire and Balatro to be roguelikes? I think they meet these four criteria.

lvxferre,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

Slay the Spire: yes. All four rules are there, specially in spirit. It’s also a deck-building game but that’s fine, a game can belong to 2+ genres at the same time.

I’m not sure on Balatro. I didn’t play it, so… maybe?

yucandu, do games w Valve block Steam game with queer art in Russia after state censor attacks it for “promoting non-traditional sexualities”

Email Gabe, here:

gaben@valvesoftware.com

I did back in 2015 when I was an edgy idiot, upset about their removal of the game Hatred because it is literally a spree shooting simulator. And I was all like “free speech”. And Gabe actually replied! And put the game back up too.

So email him. He might reply.

SkaveRat,

I mailed him about some completely random bullshit something like 20 years ago

And he actually replied a couple days later (even if with only a short sentence)

Treczoks, do games w Valve block Steam game with queer art in Russia after state censor attacks it for “promoting non-traditional sexualities”

So Steam is still doing business in Russia? I actually thought they were better than that.

demonsword,
@demonsword@lemmy.world avatar

Corporations are amoral things. Money is money, it has no frontiers.

SkavarSharraddas, do games w Valve block Steam game with queer art in Russia after state censor attacks it for “promoting non-traditional sexualities”

Guess Russia has the right climate for snowflakes lol.

elenlaw,
@elenlaw@vivaldi.net avatar

@SkavarSharraddas @Agent_Karyo sadly, we didn't have even single snowy week yet...
And Slava Ukraine, who wrecks our oil refineries.

Whostosay, do games w Valve block Steam game with queer art in Russia after state censor attacks it for “promoting non-traditional sexualities”

Nontraditional sexualities huh? Pretty sure being gay happened way before Russia or any previous nation on that land

5too,

That was my first thought - aren’t homosexual relationships documented in Greek and Roman culture, among others?

That sounds very traditional to me!

Agent_Karyo, (edited ) do games w Valve block Steam game with queer art in Russia after state censor attacks it for “promoting non-traditional sexualities”
@Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world avatar

So Valve does not accept money from russian users directly (the roundabout methods are well known by russian users and Valve does nothing in this case even though it acts against similar methods when publishers make the call), so why would they even care what Roskomnadzor says? What can Roskomnadzor do to Valve?

I will note that Valve also does nothing about genocidal imperialist russian reviews on this DLC for support of Ukraine in Workers and Resources:

I’m from Donetsk. We have been bombarded since 2014 by the state in which I was born and lived. Declaring us enemies of the people. I am for the Russian SVO. Buy a dls only because of the Zaporizhia NPP, it is well made <3

You can check the number of civilians deaths in Donbas in 2014 vs 2022 to present and look at what happened to cities like Bahmut during the russian invasion. Not to mention the 1.5 million Ukrainians who had to leave just in 2014 (including my family members).

And yet we have to hear faux-libertarian polemics about alleged belief in “freedom of speech” and arrogant gibberish about “I am a free speech absolutist!” from individuals who know nothing about the value of free speech.

I said it before and I will say it again, American companies cannot be relied upon as a source of digital services. Both for systematic reasons (submission to the local oligarch/criminal regime) and philosophical reasons (a culture of ignorance and lack of desire to go beyond theatrical proclamations about freedom of this or freedom of that).

Let’s say you think I am being uncharitable in my attitude. Then tell me, why does Valve even read notices from Roskomnadzor (not to mention implementing their orders)? Russia is sanctioned and they are not supposed be able to make purchases at all. And yet Valve feels the need to follow orders from Roskomnadzor. What’s the logic here?

drmoose,

I think they think that losing steam access would just rocket piracy not only in Russia but in the entire world. Getting russian market on legal games has been a multi decade process and that would really suck for the industry.

Not saying thats right just that it be their reasoning

Agent_Karyo,
@Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world avatar

I respect your reasoning and I agree that it would massively increase piracy in russia, but remember, russia is sanctioned; Valve isn’t supposed to be selling to russians in the first place.

Disagree on impact on global piracy rates. Pirated games were widely available via public russia sources such as rutracker.org.

You don’t even need to know russian as all titles have english headings.

Here is a link to Vampire Bloodlines 2, originally release on October 21st, with consistent updates since then, last one being on November 18th:

rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6761118

You don’t need to speak russian to figure out what “magnet-ссылке” with a magnet icon refers to.

SlurpingPus,

Russia is sanctioned and they are not supposed be able to make purchases at all.

Might want to try finding sources for this, because you’ll discover this is untrue.

Agent_Karyo, (edited )
@Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world avatar

From the article:

For context, Steam currently doesn’t allow direct purchases by Russian players, in accordance with western sanctions, so Russian buyers have to make use of workarounds such as third-party key resellers.

Btw, I knew this before reading the article. Do a web search around how these workarounds operate (the example cited by RPS isn’t the only one).

SlurpingPus,

There are no ‘Western sanctions’ that prohibit from selling stuff to all Russians. Visa and MasterCard stopped doing cross-border transactions by their own decision, and most Russian banks are cut off from SWIFT. That’s all, aside from more individual and sector-specific sanctions.

Agent_Karyo,
@Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world avatar

How does that contradict what I said?

You think living in Ukraine, I would be aware of the exact scope of sanctions against russia (and the massive loopholes)?

SlurpingPus,

Are you aware of what you yourself wrote in the original comment?

Russia is sanctioned and they are not supposed be able to make purchases at all.

Explain to me why they’re supposed to not be able to make purchases.

Agent_Karyo,
@Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world avatar

When you use steam, do you mail Newell the cash?

SlurpingPus,

Do you know how law works? There’s no law against Newell accepting cash from Russia. Whereas, if the US wanted, they would easily make a law saying it’s forbidden to accept any kind of payment from Russia. Steam operates entirely within what the law says.

frustrated_phagocytosis, do games w Valve block Steam game with queer art in Russia after state censor attacks it for “promoting non-traditional sexualities”

Why do anything to appeal to fucking Russian regime bullshit? Tell them to fuck off! Cowards.

echodot,

Because then they’ll block steam in Russia.

I’m not defending Valve here they need to have more values, but realistically this game was never going to be available for sale in Russia. No matter what they did.

Agent_Karyo,
@Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world avatar

What’s wrong with Steam getting blocked in Russia? It’s not like Valve allows direct purchases by russian users.

Russian users losing access to their libraries without VPN is their own problem. They are responsible for their government, no one else.

Goodlucksil, (edited )

Um, what? Most Russians that browse Steam do not endorse the regime (can’t check, but probably so given what happens in the West)

Edit: Due to lemmy.world/comment/20733461, I am retracting my comment.

hannesh93,
@hannesh93@feddit.org avatar

Ever heard of “bread and games” to keep the population docile and stop revolts?

drmoose,

If you ever get to play csgo or dota2 you’re likely to change this opinion

Agent_Karyo,
@Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world avatar

I strongly disagree, the Workers & Resource DLC link can provide some insights on this; russian language reviews talk about “getting salo for the Ukrainians” and whataboutism about Palestine (like they care about Palestine, if anything most russians tend to support Israel). There is lots of anti-Ukrainian, pro-invasion russian language commentary on Steam.

We’ve lived in russia as an expat family for many years, we left as soon as our finances allowed us to (this was was before the russians invaded Georgia in 2008).

Then there is broader research on russian support for the full scale invasion; even using demographic splits (e.g. people aged 18 to 24, highly educated russians, high income russians), all demographic segments show at least majority support for the full scale invasion (with almost all segment groups showing at strong majority support and very commonly overwhelming majority support).

With respect to arguments that “people are afraid to show their true views”; there are multiple research pieces that specifically account for preference falsification. Some russians do hide their preferences, but this group is so small that even with preference falsification adjustments you have a strong majority support (65%+) for the full scale invasion. That’s specifically the full scale invasion (i.e. 2022), with respect to the annexation of Crimea, preference falsification was found to be not statistically significant with the respect to the baseline ~85% support for the annexation of Crimea.

TurnOnTheSunflower,

If he’s right, I understand you. But generally you should be very careful believing stats without sources/citing.

Agent_Karyo, (edited )

Baseline research on support for the fullscale invasion:

https://www.levada.ru/en/2024/05/17/conflict-with-ukraine-assesments-for-march-2024/

The level of support for the Russian armed forces has not changed significantly since the beginning of the conflict – the majority of respondents (76%) support the actions of Russian troops in Ukraine, including 48% “definitely support” and another 28% “rather support” the action of Russian army. 16% are against.

Research with preference falsification adjustments with respect to support for the full scale invasion:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20531680221108328

when asked directly, 71% of respondents support [full scale invasion of Ukraine], while this share drops to 61% when using the list experiment

Support for annexation of Crimea:

https://www.levada.ru/en/2021/05/19/crimea-3/

The vast majority of Russians (86%) consistently support the accession of Crimea to Russia – this indicator has fluctuated slightly since 2014. 9% do not support the accession.

Research with preference falsification adjustments with respect to support for annexation of Crimea:

https://www.jiia.or.jp/en/column/2022/09/russia-fy2022-01.html

Using the list-experiment technique, Timothy Frye and others showed that Putin's approval rating after the annexation of Crimea was actually high, at around 80%. In their study, they made a list of famous Russian politicians and had respondents answer how many of these politicians they supported. They then estimated Putin's approval rating by adding the name "Putin" to the list for only one group[*]3 and thus concluded that the high approval ratings after the annexation of Crimea were not very different from the findings of opinion pollsters.

A high level overview of russian support for the invasion of Ukraine (a summary, but with links to relevant research, albeit some sources will be in russian):

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/content-series/russia-tomorrow/reluctant-consensus-war-and-russias-public-opinion/

Younger people still support the war in high numbers, though their support is lower than that of the older generation: 75–80 percent of people fifty-five and older support the Russian army’s actions in Ukraine, while 61 percent of young respondents in Levada polls share this sentiment.

GeneralEmergency,

Because Gaben is a libertarian fuckwit.

Fuck his greedy ass. And fuck G*mers defending his monopoly.

CosmoNova,

Steam always chose the path of least resistance when it comes to dealing with law maker demands even when there were more consumer friendly ways available. This is not surprising at all.

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