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jordanlund, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable
!deleted7836 avatar

"Oh? You hate your job? There’s a support group for that, it’s called ‘Everybody’, we meet at the bar!"

  • Drew Carey
potterman28wxcv,

Video games devs have it much worse than other developers though

520,

Cant blame game devs at all. Their working conditions take the absolute piss. It's sweatshop conditions compared to other types of tech work.

acastcandream,

Crunch culture stories are horrifying to read

BudgieMania,

A 100%, some of the things that you hear from the industry are crazy. If you offered me twice my current salary to be a developer in the AAA videogame industry, I wouldn't take it.

RubiksIsocahedron,

And no employer out of the industry will take you seriously once you’ve worked.

potterman28wxcv,

Do you know why is that so?

520, (edited )

Not a game developer, but one aspect is that developers outside of the gaming industry function VERY differently to the point where there is little in the way of transferable knowledge.

For example, most games are made in C/C++ because performance is a serious concern, but management will absolutely shit themselves if you try to make a web service in that language due to security concerns. The only language with any serious overlap is C#, as that is the scripting language used in Unreal Engine and Unity.

Some app developers use game engines for non-game apps (eg: Duolingo uses Unity) but that's about it.

potterman28wxcv,

I understand that video games dev and Web dev does not overlap but the developer field is more vast than just Web. For example embedded development uses a lot of C/C++ so knowledge would be transferable there.

I would also say that even though the engines or framework is not the same, surely there are human skills that can be transferred like managing a project, solving problems, algorithms, performance analytics and debugging.

But that’s only my theory and I have no experience on switching field like that

520,

You've got a very valid point with embedded devices. Although there are some big differences in that software for embedded devices typically also act as the operating system, something games stopped doing years ago.

For everything else you mentioned, you're mostly correct but there are complications. The problem is, it can be hard to sell those skills at an interview.

RubiksIsocahedron,

Yeah, embedded is exactly where I’m trying to transfer to, but good luck getting embedded jobs in Los Angeles that aren’t military or otherwise require a background check.

RobMyBot,

Man, the Drew Carey show was great.

state_electrician,

I heard it from George Carlin.

Heisl, do games w Payday 3 Open Beta Release Date Confirmed

No PlayStation beta?

CIWS-30, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable

Not shocking. I just hope people learn from this and react by not getting into the gaming industry until the shortage of workers forces it to change. Same thing with the entertainment industry outside of gaming at large.

The way the movie / tv industry treats most of its employees who aren't at the very top is just horrible, and if people didn't have such stars in their eyes for Hollywood and such, working conditions would be so much better all around, along with pay and mandatory breaks.

I've been in the entertainment industry, and so has my sister. It's amazingly how terrible people are treated, including crew and lower end actors, and all for a product that's not really necessary or all that important for the survival of the world. People don't think about it, but we've been around for MILLIONS of years without TV and Movies. Sure there were plays and such, but it doesn't take much for humanity to amuse itself. Simple conversations, board games, some sticks and balls... if the writer / actor strikes kept going on, and new content stopped coming out, it'd suck at first, but we'd get used to it.

cdipierr, do games w Witcher TTRPG Going on 'Disappointing' Hiatus During The Witcher 4 Development - IGN

There are lots of options for roleplayers who want to bring the Witcher to the table in the meantime, of various levels of complexity. There’s On the Path for something fun and streamlined, or Vaesen and Ironsworn for a bit more meat. You could use Monster of the Week or Bump in the Dark if you’re willing to move the setting into a more Witchery direction.

And if you’d rather stick with a system you’re more familiar with, there are supplements like Into the Wyrd and Wild or The Perilous Wilds that allow you to put your players through dangerous evirons on the trail of unique monsters.

acastcandream, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable

I was considering making the jump from film and television to the video game industry until a year or two ago. I am really passionate about video games, and I really think there’s a lane for me. Unfortunately, after reading so many horrible stories about crunch culture and learning just how demanding the industry can be (even as somebody who worked on some pretty grueling Hollywood sets) I decided not to go that route. It still makes me upset to think about. I just feel like the industry is so terrible it’d be irresponsible and unfair to my family to go down that route. Reading Significant Zero really put the last nail in the coffin for me on that dream, even though it wasn’t the intention of the book. 

comicallycluttered, (edited )

I know it’s not much, but I hope that if you don’t already, you find some time for yourself to just make games for the fun of it.

Not if you’re already dealing with overwork stress, but if you have free time that you’d like to spend on something. No one has to play them or you could do game jams (even though that’s inherently crunch, it’s the choice of the dev rather than their boss and more of a self-imposed limitation) or do otherwise random stuff and just let people muck about with whatever you’ve created. No pressure, no deadlines, no expectations.

And since you know already know how production in general works, you’re well aware of the iterative process and won’t fall into the trap of “why is this taking so long and why can’t my graphics be as good as GTA V” or whatever, which a lot of new developers (and programmers and pretty much everyone) encounter.

acastcandream,

It would be nice. I just need structure and it’s hard to find structure when I can only do it during my little free time i have around my toddlers :/

It would need to at least partially pay the bills to be viable.

I really appreciate the encouragement, by the way. It’s tempting!

YuzuDrink, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable

I work at a company which doesn’t make games, but interacts with a lot of game devs, and employs a lot of ex-game devs; and everyone I work with is either glad they got out of game dev or glad they skipped it altogether.

I used to work for a very reasonable (smaller) game studio, and while it was fun, I still got a massive pay and quality-of-life improvement by changing careers away from making games.

MarcomachtKuchen, (edited ) do games w Witcher TTRPG Going on 'Disappointing' Hiatus During The Witcher 4 Development - IGN

I get it Roleplaying games are the Hot shit, and im more them happy to welcome everyone into a great and fullfilling Hobby, but at the same time it feels like the market is saturated. In last 2 years alone ive seen the annoucement of whole RPG Systems by:

*The witcher

*dark souls

*gloomhaven

*assasins creed

*Stormlight Archive

*Candela Obscura by Critical role

And those where just the ones that reached my ear.

On the other Hand im All for more diversity in the TTRPG community, currently D&D takes way to much space for how Bad the quality of offical books is.

MJBrune, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable

I’m 10 years into my games career and one of the main reasons I’m still in it is that I’ve worked for indie studios for most of my career.

I’ve worked rarely for AAA studios and they are soulless and long hours. It’s not fun, it’s not creative, it’s not about creating personal art. It’s about creating a product to make profits. They’re really fun games a lot of the time but they get there by limiting who can contribute to what.

An engineer trying to give feedback on design gets shut down. A lot of smaller studios are the opposite and people wear multiple hats daily. I love wearing multiple hats and it helps me understand my own art creation process.

Some folks in the industry as well only see this like a job not an expression of themselves through art. That’s fine but limits them to studios who only want workers not artists.

That said, the average has came up. About 10 years ago that average time in the industry was 5 years. Now it’s 7. People are finding the industry more and more stable but the industry does have a problem keeping juniors. I almost left the industry several times but as I got over 5 years I started to see a change in job offers. Lots more recruiters contacting me. At 10 years I’ve started to see a lot more people wanting to pay me for an hour talk. It becomes easier to stay in the industry as you gain experience but those first 5 years are really rough.

doleo, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable

Is any career sustainable anymore?

squid, do gaming w CD Projekt Details Cyberpunk 2077's Revamped Police System Coming Alongside Phantom Liberty - IGN

I’m pissed that they’re not adding in an interactive rail system. The police suck, I’m surprised they even had them in the base game, shameful

Kaldo,
@Kaldo@kbin.social avatar

interactive rail system

The what now? What is that and how would it improve the game?

wolfshadowheart,
@wolfshadowheart@kbin.social avatar

There's a mod that adds a metro system. The on-rail trains present throughout the city.

I'd shift my version of that complaint more toward "post-game doesn't let me be a passenger". Delamain quests, side quests, main quest complete? Congratulations, you are officially the only driver left in Night City. Sitting and watching in the passenger seat is no more!

Well, not with the Metro mod :D

Lord_Logjam, do xbox w Larian Studios Talks About When to Expect Baldur's Gate 3's Release on Xbox - IGN

Excellent! I’m saving my MS points for this one.

AlternativeEmphasis, do gaming w Cyberpunk 2077 Only Getting One Expansion Was a 'Technological Decision', CD Projekt Red Says - IGN

Yeah I am hoping they overhaul or embrace a new engine because that is what apparently killed mutliplayer for Cyberpunk. I dream of playing as trauma team and extracting patients.

SaltySalamander,
@SaltySalamander@kbin.social avatar

They're moving to Unreal Engine 5.

AlternativeEmphasis,

I'm not big on the homogenising into unreal 5 but if it works well for them I'm all for it.

Hypx,
@Hypx@kbin.social avatar

UE5 is nowhere near ready if Aveum is anything to go by. Let's hope UE5 gets way better or it will spell disaster for a lot of companies.

MJBrune, do gaming w Cyberpunk 2077 Only Getting One Expansion Was a 'Technological Decision', CD Projekt Red Says - IGN

I’ve worked with Unreal Engine 4 since 2014. I was a part of games that got the engine early. I adopted Unreal 5 last year when it was reasonable to do so. It’s honestly one of, if not the most powerful game engine out there. It has its own set of issues of course. A lot of people use its features without regard to their proper usage or pitfalls of using them. It’s also not an engine that caters to small indie developers. Every engine has its flaws. That said I’ve constantly watched as large indies to AAA studios switch to unreal over my career. It’s probably the best engine out there for those studios. It’s good to see major studios dropping their clearly buggy engines and being able to put out better products.

That all said, boy that 5% to Epic is making them a lot of money. I’m really hoping in a few years that Godot Engine will really start to compete but even talking with one of the major engine contributors: “godot lacks people who know what they’re doing.” I also see this in a lot of engine issues and poor architecture choices. It’s disappointing to see someone so close to the project confirm. Unreal needs a strong competitor though, something ideally open sourced.

Faydaikin, do gaming w Baldur's Gate 3: Act 3 Bugs and Missing Content Becoming a Problem as More Players Near End
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

The game has only just gotten it’s first patch and they wrote in the notes what other things could be expected in Patch 2.

It’ll be polished off before you know it. Plus, I have a sneaking suspicion there’s plans for a DLC. More content is likely to come.

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

Here's an idea, how about it gets polished before release.

Rolder,

Didn’t they push up release so they would come out before Starfield?

wahming,

For games with a shitton of content, I’m not sure it’s entirely possible. You just can’t have every single combination of stuff checked out after every change

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

There were 1st level spells that had missing info or flat out wrong info. This is content players are immediately going to interact with.

There's a major NPC whose story line gets broken beyond repair in multiplayer if you don't do things just right. This is only a few hours into the game.

I don't think I'm setting a very high bar here.

Faydaikin,
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

Compared to a lot of Triple-A games out there, it is polished.

It’s a pretty big game with a lot of variations. And as i said; It just got it’s first patch and more are coming.

It took Bethesda about 12 years before they got around to fixing the “Games for Windows Live” thing in Fallout 3. Which literally made the game unplayable. That was a problem.

I’m sure they’ll get Wyll fixed for you, if he hasn’t already been in this patch.

But now I’m intrigued… If you don’t think you’re setting the bar high, what games are you comparing BG3 to that were that bug free at launch?

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

Scope is not an excuse for bugs and I'm tired of people making that argument. If they couldn't deliver this scope as a polished game, maybe they should have reduced the scope.

gk99,

Gonna be real with you, this is a terrible take. I’d much rather have games pushing boundaries at the cost of some bugs rather than a bunch of the same old regurgitated elements over and over to be safe.

GTA3 had plenty of bugs, the Purple Nines glitch being particularly infamous. Literally nobody out there is saying “wow, I wish they’d stuck with the top-down style games instead of going 3D because this bug has seriously inconvenienced me.”

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

What boundary is BG3 pushing, exactly?

Faydaikin, (edited )
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

We wouldn’t have any games with the stardards you’re suggesting. I think you’d be hard pressed to live up to them yourself, if I’m being honest.

No product is without it’s faults and flaws.

I’m sorry you happend to be one of the people that got that bug.

If it’s as big a deal for you as it sound like, I’d recommend getting a refund. It’s as simple as that.

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

We wouldn’t have any games with the stardards you’re suggesting.

This is the most ridiculous and hyperbolic thing I've read all week.

Faydaikin,
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

All games launch with bugs. Not necessarily game-breaking bugs, but bugs nonetheless.

There is simply no way developers can account for every tiny potential conflict in their code. So thank god for the internet and that fixing them post-launch is a concept.

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

My guy, stop stabbing that straw man, he did nothing to you.

Faydaikin,
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

No idea what that’s supposed to mean.

The simple solution for you is just not buying games at launch.

iAmTheTot, (edited )
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

You're exaggerating my position to make it easier to attack. In other words, you're trying to argue against a point I did not make. A straw man.

Faydaikin,
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

Probably. You didn’t answer the few questions i asked.

You said you weren’t setting the bar high, but failed mention any other game for comparison when I asked.

Just kept insisting that the two bugs you encountered at launch were completely unacceptable.

I’m just thinking you’d have a hard time with anything that has been made the last 20+ years. It sounds absolutely awful.

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

I'm not interested in comparing BG3 to other games. I'm interested in judging it on its own merit. And I've encountered far more than two bugs. Plenty of games across 20 years have been released with fewer bugs than this game, what an absolutely absurd comment.

Faydaikin,
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

You see, that’s are kind of comment that makes you seem hostile, which in turn makes it look like you have no basis for your claim.

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

Calling absurd arguments absurd is hostile?

Not once have I attacked your character or used crass language. Not really sure what you want, but I'm quite done. Have a great day.

Faydaikin,
@Faydaikin@beehaw.org avatar

You too, mate

artic,

I would rather have bigger scope but less polish

Cethin,

It’s pretty damn polished. There’s just a lot of possibilities and they rarely mess up. With biggest Act 3 issue is performance is worse, which is expected when you’re going from wilderness to dense city. It still runs pretty fine on my old PC on ultra. It’s about 25fps, which for top down strategy is fine. I could lower graphics if it were an issue.

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

We have different opinions on what polished means.

regalia,

It’s very polished considering the complexity and scope of the game.

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

Agree to disagree mate. When level 1 content that players are immediately going to interact with is broken, I don't call that polished.

regalia,

What are you referring to?

LoamImprovement,

Not OP but I can at least throw a minor pet peeve in that hat - Mage hand only works once per short rest, instead of as an at will as the cantrip should.

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

Many spells have/had missing text or flat out worked wrong.

regalia,

Examples? I haven’t seen that a single time

iAmTheTot,
@iAmTheTot@kbin.social avatar

They are literally noted in the most recent patch notes. Shield had the wrong duration (until long rest, VERY different to how it actually works), Warding Bond made no mention at all that the caster also takes damage (pretty key detail). Many spells didn't have listed ranges or areas, I haven't looked to see if those are all fixed now.

regalia,

Oh, who cares lol

DoucheBagMcSwag, do gaming w Cyberpunk 2077 Only Getting One Expansion Was a 'Technological Decision', CD Projekt Red Says - IGN

Essentially supporting PS4 and Xbox One was the reason

TwilightVulpine, (edited )

Nah, if they actually got it into production as they started to make teasers for it, they'd likely get some version of it working for PS4 and Xbox One. The first teaser for it was released on 2013, but development only started on 2016. I'd scratch it to poor management more than anything. Sony managed to keep releasing pretty impressive games on the PS4.

It also comes to mind that the versions on PS5 and XSX weren't even the "next gen" versions proper, they were the ones for the previous consoles that just happened to run better on newer hardware. The proper next gen update only came months later.

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