Can someone explain the appeal to these games to me?
I did play several hours of Skyrim with some mods last year but the combat felt clunky, the loot felt like a pain in the ass to manage, and there didn’t really seem to be a good story and the world felt a bit hollow.
I do realize their age, of course, and this is an unfair comparison but I had a much greater time with Elden ring and the Witcher 3. Both those games are so dense with vast beautiful worlds.
It’s not for me either, but i guess not being strung along by the main story line and instead being able to just go anywhere and do whatever is appealing to people who just want to immerse themselves in the games world.
The appeal is that these games were made well before Elden Ring and Witcher 3; before ‘open world’ was mainstream. Every single NPCs had daily routines, quests were dynamically generated, and what you do in the game had consequences beyond pissing one character off. This made triggering specific quests or events difficult if you were just going ‘off the hip’, and made replayability a big feature. Because of these systems, there were several interesting “game breaking” issues, but these things were charming in their own right due to how new all these systems were put together with almost nothing like it.
In retrospect, not all the “game breaking” issues were truly understood at the time, and most are a consequence of several factors - the most common being that some quests activate behind the scenes and prevent other quests from starting, even if you haven’t picked them up and added them to your journal. So it is possible to do mostly everything in the game with careful planning. But at the time, it really did seem like each playthrough was unique.
It is/was also highly moddable for its time. While it took a long time to detail every aspect of the game, today there is nothing mods can’t do. Even Witcher 3 mods can’t do a bunch of things that Skyrim mods can. And it’s a good gateway into learning how to mod, and modding can be just as fun as playing. Some mod guides are so long it takes days or weeks to implement. It can get quite insane, with some people maintaining multiple ‘mod versions’: one to play (most playthroughs won’t let you add/remove mods mid-play), one to test new stuff, and one to keep up-to-date with whatever mod guide/group they are following (you know, for fun…and the next playthrough).
But mostly it’s nostalgia, like how some people like older Zelda or Final Fantasy games. Or how you might play that pointless cozy game you played a million times because it connects you to something deeper to what was going on at that time. We know TES games are pretty bad in a lot of regards, but graphics, gameplay, or story isn’t what we are after. Hell, there are now adults booting up Minecraft because it’s just the game they grew up with.
Nostalgia is a hard drug. I replayed Pokemon Red easily 10 times over the years. I tried Pokemon Gold (an objectively much better game) probably about the same amount of times, but I could never get through it, because I didn’t play as a kid and thus have no nostalgia for it.
I have more nostalgia for Keitai Denjū Telefang, which I played in bootlegged form mis-labelled as Pokemon Diamond (that was before the real Pokemon Diamond was released), and even though this bootleg is horrible in quality, it’s easier for me to play than Pokemon Gold.
Your Pokémon comparison reminds me of something I’ve noticed with gaming. Sometimes the game just has to hit me at the right time, regardless of nostalgia. I’ve had games that I bounced off of multiple times, then years later I decide to give it a go and get sucked in. I’m fairly sure this sometimes happens due to other factors in my life at the time (situations I’m currently experiencing, things I haven’t experienced, etc.).
The Seinfeld effect. Today they seem clunky, janky, unpolished or uninspired. Because you have way better modern examples to compare them to. The catch is that when they came out, they were the first. People have said the same about the Beatles, the rolling stones, the og legend of Zelda, counter strike, etc.
This is exactly what they are doing, too. They are comparing a game from 2011 to games that came out 4 years later (Witcher 3 in 2015) and over a decade later (Elden Ring in 2022)
Skyrim released alongside the OG Witcher and Dark Souls.
Did you play it at the time it was released or did u try to go back later? Skyrim was and is a legendary game for a reason, to each their own but in its day it was undeniably the best RPG game in existence and it held that title for years! The story is excellent. Games like this and enshrouded will also never achieve full enjoyment in those that don’t bother reading the game lore. If yo skip all the books and never read any I cans see why you wouldn’t get as immersed as say in the Witcher 3 story where you have more cutscenes fed to you. And don’t get it messed up, witcher 3 is a legend too and probably my all time favourite. But it did not offer me the same replayability Skyrim does. And the last point to Skyrim is it runs good on my potato spec laptop so I can play it on about anything!
This. The game only seems dull on the surface but the more you dig into the text and the background the lore is just sprawling.
And yea, Elder Scrolls are as replayable as your imagination while Witcher is only as replayable as the different dialogue options you pick from. Every game you still play “a Witcher” and there is only so far that can take you
For me, personally, these games are the closest thing on a computer to a nearly endless sandbox tabletop rpg experience. I don’t like having to do some grand “save the world” narrative that RPGs push you into, and in Skyrim I can avoid it after the intro or mod it out. Then I create characters like a tabletop RPG (I develop a backstory and where I choose to go and what I choose to do is based on the character’s personality in my mind) and essentially play it like it is a solo tabletop game where the engine takes care of a lot of the work.
I haven’t played in years, though, because I can’t get the same level of immersion as I did when playing for 5 hours straight before having kids.
The openness of it. I can play as I want and go where I want. I’ve played Skyrim since its release and never have finished the main story. It’s not the main attraction. There’s so much lore carried through the games since the 90s , it’s endless.
If you’re talking about the skyrim/oblivion franchise in particular, it has a wide open feel that many players connect with the first times games gave them real freedom to explore a world and not just throw them on rails to go from place to place. I do think a lot of it is nostalgia. I don’t think the games have aged too well from a standpoint of what we expect games to offer nowadays.
Elden Ring was a much more recent attempt at a sprawling game, and had a style of action/adventure game closer to “adult zelda” but also had that feeling of freedom that players liked, and Witcher 3 was just all of that but with a different style and different focus. Witcher 3 was a product of these kinds of games and evolved from them, so it’s expected that they would have figured out a few extra tricks to get you to connect, I do agree there was a lot more work that went into Witcher 3 in terms of making a world that felt convincing and solid. Not everyone wants that all the time though.
Also, Witcher was about a dude in a grittier world. Skyrim was about your view of sparkling mushroom caves and dragons from behind a bow. They both try different ways to engage you and they both appeal to different types of players.
After ignoring the TES games my whole life, I first played Oblivion a few years ago, and for once in a very long time, I felt the same feeling I did when playing GTA San Andreas for the first time as a little kid.
I spent the first 10hrs or so just stealing stuff and fighting in the Arena, didn’t even touch the main story. In Oblivion, there is soooo much stuff to do, and I didn’t even mod it.
Elden Ring is definitely a great game, but it’s pale in comparison to Oblivion when it comes to “freedom to do anything”. Even Skyrim couldn’t top that for me. Don’t know about Witcher 3 though, I have yet to play it.
Comparing Witcher 3/Elden Ring to Skyrim is just doing it a disservice. Skyrim released in 2011 alongside the original Witcher game and the first Dark Souls.
The first witcher game was released in 2007. The second one was released in 2011. The witcher 3 was released in 2015. Witcher 2 was definitely more polished feeling to me. I found it felt very similar to The Witcher 3.
My favorite was “Halloween” in Halo 2 multiplayer, kind of a knock off “hide-n-seek” but with a twist.
No shields, no radar, the only weapons were a sword and a pistol, and you only had one life. One player was “Michael Meyers”, that player had the sword and chased down everyone else. All the other players hid while Michael picked you off one by one. Once one player was left, that person became Jamie Lee Curtis and could try to take down Michael Meyers. (To be fair that person should be Dr Loomis or Laurie Strode but it was more fun to use the actor’s name than a character.)
The twist was the music. In Halo 2, you could hear enemy team chatter through the tv speakers and it got louder as you got closer to the enemy. Using that, Michael Meyers would have the Halloween theme song playing so you knew when he was close but you didn’t know where he was. It was truly thrilling, you hear the music, you know he’s close, but not where, the music would get louder and louder as he approached….and then he would walk right by your hiding spot. Or, you’re walking around as the music builds so you know he’s close, you think you’re safe because you have an idea where he is, and suddenly he’s right behind you with a sword in your back.
It’s the BEST! Project Zomboid is in my humble opinion the definite Zombie Apocalypse Survival Game with nothing else coming even close. Especially when modded, but even without mods. Had my Server running for 2 years and played with my friends, it was an absolute BLAST! It ended when we were sieged in our fortress by a horde a screen wide and somebody decided to throw Molotov cocktails at them… because burning zombies set everything they touch on fire… that includes wooden fortresses.
I specifically had told everyone that the only thing more dangerous then a horde is a burning horde. But did they listen?! Nooooo…
XD
It was such a fun ending though, the Zeds breaking through the south wall and us fighting them with everything we had until we were stranded in the garage and the doors were breaking down… so we toasted to having survived that long with bleach and died before they got to us.
If I find a game too tedious and I’m about to drop it then sometimes I cheat whatever currency the game uses by editing RAM values which is braindead easy. Single player only. If it makes me want to keep playing. I have less patience for poor pacing as I get older.
Except Wreckfest if it counts. I had zero interest in the shitty single player campaign. I just wanted to race online but the game locks most cars behind a crappy uninspired single player grind. I gave myself enough money to just buy everything and then soley focused on online play.
Edit: oh and carry weights are my second most cheated thing. I get no joy out of shop runs. I don’t give a shit if my pockets being unlimited is “unrealistic” so is carrying whatever artibrary capped number it is like 250lbs everywhere without a backpack. Takes nothing away from the fun to cheat this waste of time shit.
Infinite Weapon durability in System Shock 2 and Zelda BOTW also come to mind. Stuff like that.
Shin Megami Tensei games have you rename their protagonist (and often the 3 other central characters too), but most of them don’t have a canonical name. Also most of the time those people are supposed to be Japanese. Every time I am starting a game like that I struggle to choose a name that doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb for them.
If there is a default name, I usually use it. Exceptions are the kind of RPG where the character is a blank slate, whose identity doesn’t matter at all and whose appearance is custom (like Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Xenoblade X for example). And stuff like Pokémon, obviously. When your avatar is going to meet other players, doesn’t look good if everyone has the same name.
I started Xenoblade Chronicles X (Wii U) without even knowing the main character had a canon name (it’s… Cross. Like the X is supposed to be pronounced in the games’s title). But even if know it now I still rename them. They are custom, there is multiplayer, and story-wise they’re the blandest of characters anyway, so…
I struggle to choose a name that doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb
A buddy of mine played many Western fantasy RPGs, and christened the characters with various elegant and dreamy names, until he started ‘World of Warcraft’ and met two guys called ‘Foot in my Mouth’ and ‘Get Yer Hands Off’. After that, his characters were named something like ‘Bitten by a Shark’.
A mechanic to permanently gain new attacks and/or abilities by mastering equipment. I haven’t seen that many games have this mechanic and it’s mostly been adult games for some reason. I think Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep is the only non-adult game I’ve seen to have this mechanic.
I just remembered another one. The Gambits system from Final Fantasy 12. I’ve always liked this mechanic because it almost completely automates battles, allowing you to focus more on exploration and treasure hunting. I have only seen two games do this and, once again, FF12 is the only non-adult game I’ve seen with this type of mechanic.
Clair Obscur Expedition 33 kind of has the gaining abilities from mastering equipment thing you mentioned, it’s not really equipment in that you can’t see the items being put on, but you equip items that give abilities and after a few battles with it you master the ability and can change to another item but equip the ability through a separate resource pool.
That is actually part of what I meant by having permanent access to the ability. One of the games I didn’t mention in my comment does it like that, where you get the abilities by mastering equipment but then you have to use AP to actually activate it like how abilities were in Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2. I’ve actually been interested in playing Clair Obscure because I’ve heard that it’s one of the best RPGs to exist. The only problem is that, because it’s a modern game, I don’t know it it’ll run on my computer and I don’t have another way to play it.
You can always try it out and refund it on Steam if it doesn’t run well (or pirate it, test it, then buy it if it does). The prologue is actually one of the most hardware-taxing parts of the game, so you’ll know in about 20 minutes if your system can play it well.
I could do that but I might have to wait until we switch ISPs. My current internet speed is terrible and the ISPs that we’re looking into have significantly better speeds. For context, I’m currently trying to download a game from Itchio that’s only 700 MB and, on top of the fact that it keeps failing, it needs over half an hour to download for me.
Ah, in that case you’d definitely want to get the game via Steam or torrents. Both of those options have resumable downloads so if you’re on slow Internet it’ll just be… Slow. It won’t “fail and need to restart”. It’ll just take a day or whatever to download.
Yeah, I’ve downloaded games through Steam before. I actually had to switch over to the Itchio desktop app because downloads through their desktop app are more stable than their website. And yes, I know that I should probably just use their app to download games but I just hate using app stores on PC, it’s the same reason Steam isn’t my preferred source for games.
No, assuming I found the game you’re referring to, I’ve never owned a Wii U and while my mom owns a switch, I don’t use it. I also don’t think I’d be able to emulate it either. It seems interesting but I wont be able to play it right now.
The control scheme in Total Annihilation where you can que up lots of commands for units has largely been ignored by RTS game makers except in Supreme Commander and Spring/Recoil engine games such as Beyond All Reason and Zero-K. I think it is a perfect example of why the RTS genre in many respects died after hyperfocusing on making Starcraft-likes resulting in the stagnation of innovation in a genre that progressively catered more and more only to a very narrow range of brains/players who enjoyed simplistic explicit rock-paper-scissors unit relationships and endless fiddly micro.
Can you explain what you mean? I never played TA, but being able to queue commands is pretty common in RTS games. Did TA have some kind of system to further facilitate that, or was it just taken to an extreme?
In TA you could select a unit factory then issue move orders and set up patrol routes and then any units constructed by that factory would follow those orders. Also, if there was a unit executing a repeating move pattern, you could select it, hold shift and give it a new order. It would execute that order, then when done it would return to its original pattern.
To add to what the other guy said, Supreme commander allowed your units to synchronize shots, for example for the big guns on battleships, useful for punching through shields.
They also allowed you to queue orders, display them and then edit them. So you could set up one big patrol path for 100s of helis and fighters and defend your territory that way, and when you want to expand you can drag the patrol points and all of those 100s of units would automatically adjust.
Also there were heli transports with lift and drop points and you could use that to ferry units quicker than they would walk. So you could set the drop point closely behind the frontlines and advance the drop point with the front line, allowing for quicker resupply of troops.
Quite a bit more advanced than you would see in starcraft or AoE2 overall.
Well know that you have outed yourself as a cool indie dev you must eventually post some sneak previews of your game to a gaming/game development community on lemmy/the fediverse!
I put 200hrs into that game many years ago. Had a good time for a while, but it was one of those games where eventually a switch clicked in my brain and I felt like I was wasting my life away playing it. So I just stopped.
The last time I got interested in it again, I saw that the devs had basically abandoned it, or were relying on modders to do all the work to maintain it or something along those lines. I am glad to see people are keeping it alive and making it something more.
Yeah any setting that tries to make things photoreal needs to be able to be turned off. Fringing, vignette, motion blur. What’s next? Strobing? Jfc. Like yeah those can all look really good if tumed properly. But tuning for everybody’s monitor and everybody’s room ambient light or sunlight is really tough. Let people at least turn them off, and if you’ve got time, you can add in some changeable values.
The idea that this same person would actually play something with as much soul as Until Dawn is pretty unbelievable. Can you believe they have like, emotions and crap? Plus just so much talking, I mean come on. They don’t even have a BattlePass!
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