They might have a case if yuzu is actually decrypting switch software. That would be stupid of the developers, though. I would assume that they require you to provide decrypted games.
That’s basically the only leg nintendo has to stand on here, but nintendo can out lawyer you into the poor house regardless.
AFAIK rooted Switch consoles are used to decrypt the games and Yuzu just tries to execute whatever nonencrypted Switch binary. Unless Nintendo can prove that either the Yuzu developers themselves are behind ripping commercial Switch games or directly colluded with the rippers, they’d have a hard time to actually win. That said, regular people with normal income levels will probably just sign everything because a prolonged lawsuit is about just bankrupting them, not being ruled the win by the judge.
yuzu starts with the error “Missing Derivation Components”
yuzu requires console keys to play your games. Please follow our Quickstart Guide to dump these keys and system files from your Nintendo Switch.
Their guide also talks about dumping games from your console so I’m not sure how far it goes, but if they want console keys they are likely decrypting something
Yuzu doesn’t do any encryption breaking. The user is meant to use their Switch to dump their keys, which are legally owned by the user. Then it uses those legal keys to decrypt the ROMs by the exact normal method that the Switch itself uses. They were going based on precedent legal rulings about console emulation. Copying the decryption keys and making copies of the software for archival purposes have both been previously ruled to be perfectly legal for the enduser and don’t constitute piracy. This suit will challenge that notion.
Then it uses those legal keys to decrypt the ROMs by the exact normal method that the Switch itself uses
this is the part where they circumvent the copyright protection, even if you do it “the same way” it’s still not authorized, the DMCA is fairly broad about this stuff, one of the reasons it’s so bad
As much as I dislike Nintendo and wish Yuzu devs all the best I'd like to point out that Bowser wasn't some innocent guy who was caught by big bad company - Moonie has a video that goes into specifics about his involvement with a pirate enterprise worth a shitton of money.
Other than that yeah, I hope they can survive this situation. I wonder if Ryujinx devs are next.
Isn’t moonie the dude who shit talked Karl Jobst and ended up deleting his video because Jobst called him out on how wrong he was on pretty much everything and how terrible his research was. Like literally just watched a couple YouTube videos level research? Don’t know if I can trust someone who would fuck up THAT bad. I get people make mistakes sometimes but that’s just complete negligence especially for someone with an audience that big.
No idea, I'm only familiar with some of his videos so can't say one way or another. Is there any place I could read about it?
Edit: Also, I believe the video I mentioned has links to specific legal documents surrounding this case so it should be easy to fact check. Still, I'm not trying to whitewash the situation you wrote about would love to learn more if it happened.
Edit 2: A'ight, while I didn't have time for a deep dive I did manage to confirm that situation happened.
I sucks since the videos I've seen seemed reasonably researched and now I'm wondering whether that was a one-time screw up or a normal thing that simply wasn't caught more often. Guess I'll try to look into it more when I'm free.
The video by Karl Jobst himself on the matter is pretty informative and has proof to back up all of his claims. Iirc moonie also quoted legal statue and stuff on his video but was rebuked my Karl as well, don’t quote me on this though, I’ll have to rewatch that video to confirm. Here’s the link. Moonie did end up apologizing in the end and Karl did tell his viewers right off the back to not harass Moonie.
If you like LONG form reasonably researched videos about all sorts of topics check out Hbomberguy. He’s great.
Oh no, I completely agree no one should be completely screwed over piracy. Just wanted to add some context as I saw a lot of discussion about him ending with "poor innocent dude" without digging into details. That's all.
Nintendo has a lot of problems that should absolutely be called out. I hope me trying to add more details didn't imply otherwise.
They are taking his income for life, that’s an insane overreach specially for a big successful company like Nintendo, and it didn’t matter since the actual team behind it is back selling flashcarts that are even better than having to solder a chip.
Yes, it is insane. That case is also a great showcase of how trying to make example out of a single guy doesn't really work since, as you mentioned, rest of the team is still doing their thing.
I'd like to think (well, hope anyway) that no one looks at Bowser's story and thinks "yeah, that's a reasonable conclusion".
Don’t know how good a case Nintendo has here unless it can prove that Yuzu itself contains proprietary code that allows the ROMs to be played. If the decryption is being done on the ROMs’ end, then that’s just another reason to go after the ones dumping and distributing the ROMs. Nintendo couldn’t even substantially stop Dolphin, and Dolphin actually had a decryption key straight from Wii firmware in it. Good luck to them, but they’re likely going for the wrong legal target. Taking down what ROM sites they can (which would legally be a lot easier than the emulator makers) is just getting rid of drops in the ocean of the ROMs’ spread, but they’re the target Nintendo should be going after.
Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Yuzu has any proprietary code. Folks have to go to other websites to download the Switch firmware and keys needed to play games.
That’s not really enough to be not in violation. For example, vlc can’t natively decrypt blurays. This is because both its not bundled with the decryption library nor the decryption keys. Vlc out of the box can not decrypt blurays.
If yuzu can, if you provide some keys, eh that might be enough for them to win. It’s certainly not enough to push nintendo away. You unfortunately need to be extremely careful around the dmca stuff.
DMCA § 1201 is the anti-circumvention clause. It makes it illegal to circumvent DRM, no copyrighted content reproduction needed.
Yuzu may have defenses if they clean-room broke the encryption, but it’s a fight that will be difficult because the statute itself is unreasonable - essentially outlawing using knowledge to circumvent access controls. To those of us who know about this statute and its history in attempt to lock-down content, it’s a serious scumbag move because they may actually win. The statute is terrible and has been since it was enacted in 1998.
They also seem to be asserting a secondary liability argument - i.e., the infringement of users is Yuzu’s responsibility because Yuzu allegedly facilitated piracy, or recklessly moved forwarded when it knew or had reason to know it would be used as such. This is harder to prove.
Even if Nintendo doesn’t win the suit (but they may win it), they already “won” by filing because this will have a chilling effect on legitimate emulation.
There are two things in conflict that apply to Dolphin, and in general to post-DRM console emulators:
It’s illegal to create or distribute a device which circumvents DRM.
It’s legal to ignore DMCA restrictions for the sole purpose of making things interoperable, like running software on machines it wasn’t originally created for when you’d be able to run it on the machine it was created for.
The wording in the legislation is sufficiently vague that it’s not obvious whether it’s illegal to create or distribute a device that circumvents DRM for the sole purpose of interoperability. If a case goes to court, it could set a precedent that has to be applied in the future, or it could be settled out of court to avoid setting a precedent, and so far, there’s no case law setting a precedent.
When Nintendo asked Valve not to allow Dolphin onto Steam, despite what some people were saying, the decryption key was known to be there, and the Dolphin team had legal advice that it was reasonable to expect that the interoperability exceptions had more power than the DRM circumvention restriction. The decryption key is a so-called illegal number, but these are probably not actually illegal, and you can see several examples on the Wikipedia page about them. Nintendo ended up taking no action against Dolphin, and it wouldn’t have been a good case to try and set a precedent with as there weren’t obvious damages now it’s been so long since the Wii stopped being sold, and because the Dolphin team have historically been so diligent about stamping out discussion of piracy in their official communities, making it hard to argue that it’s intended as a DRM circumvention device rather than an interoperability tool. Also, Dolphin’s never taken donations, easily covering all their costs with just basic ads on their site.
Yuzu’s a bit of an easier target. For a start, it’s got a Patreon, and that makes it easier to paint its developers in a bad light as they’re getting money (as well as meaning there’s actual money to recover). They’ve also got data to back up the suggestion that lots and lots of Yuzu users are pirating games instead of just playing games they’ve already got a disk copy of. In a sensible world where laws are applied fairly, there’s an easy argument that hoops to jump through like requiring the user to provide Switch firmware show they’re not trying to make piracy easy, but it’s not like Yuzu will be able to muster up enough money for lawyers to match what Nintendo will be spending.
The worst thing that could come out of this is a decision that interoperability isn’t an excuse for circumventing DRM under any circumstances, as that’ll have serious consequences for a bunch of other projects, and Nintendo are likely to want to push for this precedent to be set rather than accepting an out-of-court settlement. On the other hand, Nintendo could mess up and get the opposite precedent set, although if it looks like that’s going to happen, they’re likely to drop the suit.
Nope, you have to obtain the decryption keys yourself - I spent hours hunting around online for a set of console keys and firmware dump to get the emulator working on my steam deck.
If you own a moddable switch you can dump the keys legally, but I don’t plan on doing that any time soon.
Yup. I was in a second hand game shop (cex) a month or so ago and most switch games were only 10 quid cheaper than the e shop. Mario and legend of Zelda where something like 50 pounds. That’s because those games don’t actually drop in price either psychically or on the eShop much.
There are so many things that add up over time. I wouldn’t say I hate them just yet, but I‘be stopped buying their products. The way they go about their business just rubs me the wrong way. If the only way to try to communicate that is disengaging from any of their offerings, be it games or the new switch. Yea, I’m out.
This is an excellent comment! All these haters up in here but seldom few list why. I think it’s because their arguments wouldn’t hold up, so they don’t voice them. Just pure rage (useless)
Funny how OP just explained above you, and id wager a good chunk of us feel the way he does. The real question is, why would you condone their actions?
OP of the comment I replied to explained nothing. So I don’t know what you’re talking about, unless you’re just making stuff up. Their comment was nothing but pure rage, and it got a lot of support, much of which couldn’t explain their rage either.
Edit: I see a comment above mine, but when I made my reply there were no other comments. Same time.
If you have more than a couple of neurons you don’t need me to explain why I hate Nintendo, unless you’re a corporate bootlicker who thinks Nintendo can do no wrong. If you really can’t fathom why anyone would hate them, then all you gotta do is Google “Nintendo anticonsumer” and you’ll have reading material for the whole week.
I don’t condone anything necessary. What I do do is I buy their games, play them on their systems, and have fun. I see you guys in here talking about pirating their games, not having fun, and not buying shit. What, I should condone that?! Get out of here.
This is a thread about Nintendo suing a completely legal Emulator. I do believe you’re the one who should “get out of here”, if you’re going to say Nintendo has every right to do this, when everyone else here disagrees.
they either have to say NSO/Nes/Snes classic are not emulation, or admit their definition of emulators is not the universally accepted definition of it, else Nintendo just Claimed Nintendo is serving up and charging for an unlawful service that is NSO.
It’s illegal if you don’t own the rom or decoded it with their keys. If you have the physical copy of the game, and a way to decrypt it, it’s not illegal to play the rom on an emulator.
So it’s not illegal, it becomes illegal when you don’t have the physical copy, or decode it with their stuff.
That’s rather clear evidence that they dumped their own ROM and distributed that. Since they own the rights to that ROM, they’re not distributing it illegally though. They can dump and distribute their ROMs all they want; they own the rights to them.
I’m no legal expert but Nintendo’s argument seems to surround a video game emulator being a tool whose primary use is to facilitate illegal circumvention of DRM and piracy. Nintendo’s use of emulation for a legal means to resell their games on another platform, could suggest otherwise. The possible use of a ROM illegally distributed by a 3rd party as inputs in a legitimate Nintendo emulator (though Nintendo denies this) could help separate the issues between ROMs and emulation, because Nintendo’s emulator isn’t used for piracy.
Nintendo could use a copy of the freely available Yuzu to emulate Switch games on their rumored Switch 2, if they were so inclined, and it would be a legitimate use case.
I really want a real explanation on how I’ve caused Nintendo financial harm by format shifting my legally owned games. Especially considering I pay for NSO. At some point there has to be precedent that a pirated download does not equal a lost sale and that the individuals are responsible for the infringement and not the tools.
The legality of the emulation itself has long been established, but I’ve been concerned for a while that illegal DRM circumvention of the games themselves has been a viable legal avenue. Under the DMCA, even the process to dump your own legally-licensed games has arguably been in a legal grey area for a while now, with how they are locked down. If any method to playing the games become illegal, any unauthorized emulation of games becomes de facto illegal.
I’d cite legal precedent here, but there’s been a substantial right-wing, pro-corporate shift in American courts over time. Who knows how this will go.
Yeah and none of the switch emulator stuff I've seen comes bundled with the firmware. You have to track that down separately or dump your own from your Switch.
It is not illegal to make copies of games you own and play them on an emulator. That is what was decided by the courts. Nintendo is trying to make that illegal.
They’re using the DMCA to say that because Yuzu lets someone circumvent their encryption (which is illegal, but shouldn’t be), that’s the same as Yuzu circumventing their encryption.
That’s basically like saying VLC should be illegal because it has the capability of copying a DVD.
You are being downvoted but reminder to everyone that the public Yuzu is way behind on updates and compatibility, they sell access to their most recent version via their patreon. Something that Ryujinx does not do, it purely is a donation and nothing more.
You can download and view the latest Yuzu source code for free and do practically whatever you want with it (GPLv3), including building and running it.
What paying via Patreon provides you is access to early access builds of the software. You’re paying for the convenience of them compiling the latest version of the software for you.
You can get all the latest Yuzu EA builds for free on their GitHub
But the fact that they’re kinda “selling” access… wait, why exactly DO they “sell” access even? They might not have as much legal trouble if they didn’t do that.
Yes, so distributing the code necessary to perform the decryption is illegal. That’s why you have to hack an actual switch to get the code necessary to perform the decryption (prod.keys). All Yuzu is doing is running that code through an AES library to get the game and emulating a Switch to play it. You can’t make AES libraries illegal just because they can be used to decrypt copy protection.
It’s the same with DVD decryption. VLC is not illegal because it doesn’t include the codes used to decrypt DVDs. Once you have those codes, VLC can copy a DVD for you.
No, it’s broader than that. Providing a mechanism is enough. Yes, this is functionally making maths illegal, and yes, this is a complaint we’ve had with the dmca for 20 years.
Providing the keys is against dmca, as is Providing the tooling that specifically breaks the rights management. This is just the shitty way Americans made the copyright system.
I don’t know if the two cases are equivalent, DeCSS included all code necessary to decrypt a copy protected DVD.
Yuzu does not include the necessary code to decrypt a Switch game. Users have to either “hack” their own Switch, or pirate the codes. What the users are doing is the illegal part here.
I’m using code in the sense of the word pass codes. Like, encryption codes. The codes you input to an encryption algorithm, along with the cyphertext, to get the plaintext.
But yes, Nintendo and you are saying that distributing Yuzu is illegal because it can only be used to violate the DMCA.
I disagree.
It can also be used in compliance with the DMCA, and nothing it includes are the intellectual property of Nintendo. There are exceptions to the rule about circumventing copy protection, and as long as you use Yuzu with an intent (such as security research) that falls in one of these exceptions, you can use Yuzu legally.
As long as Yuzu is never distributed by its authors with the encryption codes, it shouldn’t be illegal, even according to the DMCA. Otherwise, there would be no way to circumvent copy protection for legal purposes with regard to Switch games.
They’re using the DMCA to say that because Yuzu lets someone circumvent their encryption (which is illegal, but shouldn’t be), that’s the same as Yuzu circumventing their encryption.
Yes, yes they are. That’s how the DMCA works. It’s mental.
That’s not how the DMCA works, or tons of other software would be illegal. It’s illegal to circumvent copy protection under the DMCA (something I wholeheartedly disagree with), but it’s not illegal to make something that can be used to circumvent copy protection.
In fact, there are exemptions to that provision and one of them states that circumventing copy protection in order to play a video game using assistive technologies is legal.
It’s illegal to circumvent copy protection under the DMCA (something I wholeheartedly disagree with), but it’s not illegal to make something that can be used to circumvent copy protection.
It is explicitly illegal to produce any thing whose purpose it is to circumvent DRM:
(1) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof;
I’m telling you, that law is mental.
In fact, there are exemptions to that provision and one of them states that circumventing copy protection in order to play a video game using assistive technologies is legal.
Could you point that specific exception in the law? I can’t find it.
The accessibility use exception is on the last page, middle of the page, paragraph labeled 21.
It’s illegal to make something that’s sole purpose is to circumvent copyright. Yuzu does not have that sole purpose, and doesn’t include the code necessary (prod.keys) to even accomplish it.
Video games in the form of computer programs, embodied in lawfully acquired physical or downloaded formats, and operated on a general-purpose computer, where circumvention is undertaken solely for the purpose of allowing an individual with a physical disability to use software or hardware input methods other than a standard keyboard or mouse.
That explicitly only applies to physically disabled people. Yuzu is not specifically targetted at providing a different input method (at all) and certainly not solely for the physically disabled.
Shit like this is why I moved away from Nintendo for my gaming platform of choice.
But take heart, Nintendo, I’ll try to make time to enjoy Nintendo first party games later on a pre-loaded cheap Chinese knock-off device.
Except, I definitely won’t because Nintendo will definitely succeed in stuffing the genie back into the bottle, and preventing their games from being enjoyed on un-approved platforms in un-approved ways. /s
I have a .zip containing the latest early access version of Yuzu, for Windows and Linux. It includes the emulator, all required decryption keys, the latest firmware for game compatibility, a tool to automatically download mods, and a convenient guide on how to acquire ROMs.
I will forever distribute this .zip in a non-limited download link to anyone who asks me. Forever. You can PM me today and I’ll send it, you can PM me in 5 years and I’ll send it. Please feel free to do so. It’s not illegal to share where I live, so I’ll share. But do it via PMs, as to avoid causing trouble to the community.
Again, forever. If you’re reading this in the future, unless I’m dead (my mental health is a bit shaky), I’m sending you a fully functional Yuzu pack.
YuzuModDownloader will detect games in your library, check the built in repositories, download the mods and apply them automatically. Do keep in mind it enables all mods by default, so make sure to go to the game’s settings and disable the ones you don’t need.
Are these mods to improve things like stability and performance? I’ve found I can only use Yuzu to test out games because it’s impossible to put any real time into them due to crashes.
Some allow you to enable better graphics than the native version, some can downgrade graphics to improve performance. Some remove framerate limits. Some are cheats, with infinite health and similar. It varies a lot, really.
For example, with Tears of the Kingdom on a Steam Deck there are mods to make the game run at 16:10, with better performance, and better frame pacing at 30 FPS. If you’re running it on a PC, there are 60 FPS mods with improved draw distances and shadow resolution.
I had no interest on playing switch games, but I do have a problem with authority overstepping. I’ll help you stick it to the man and evangelize more people on the ways of the Corsair. Pm’ed
Sorry, didn’t mean to create this impression. You’re correct - there are mirrors of the official GitHub, other sites hosting it, pre-built binaries being shared on Internet Archive and Discord. You can find Yuzu, and you can probably do so from websites you already know and trust. The keys and firmware are a bit harder for newcomers (which is why I include them in the pack), Google is filled with junk when you search for those, but if you’re already a member of certain communities or have a hacked Switch, you can obtain those easily too.
But I do keep this updated pack that I use when a friend needs it or I happen to format a new PC. It’s already clean, already features the keys and firmware, and I know I can trust it (I built it after all hehe) so I might as well share. Maybe in the future Yuzu links will be harder to find or filled with crapware, mine will not. Maybe Yuzu will win the court case and be distributed on Steam… That’s great! I’ll probably still keep my pack, you never know with these things.
I basically share everything I have, if somebody wants it. Rarely is my copy the only one or somehow special. I believe the single “rare to find” digital piece of media I own is an .iso backup of a brazilian CD-ROM child’s game. But seriously, I don’t attribute much thought to rarity or importance or my name when sharing these things, I just want people who want Yuzu to have Yuzu.
Hey, Kadu! I was having the hardest time trying to find your comment on multiple apps after seeing it on the web version of Voyager. Now, after finding you, I can’t even DM you on any of the three that I use so I am resorting to commenting here in the hopes you’ll be able to see me and hopefully DM me the link for your zip! If you do see this, thank you so freaking much, and I and many other really appreciate you doing this solid! 😁
Yet another reason I never buy anything from Nintendo. Fuck those fucks. On average only like 2 Nintendo games per console generation are ever any good anyway. They should be held responsible for all the e-waste they generate.
Yuzu actually even took steps to make the emulator NOT run pirated versions of the new Mario game before it officially released. I ran it on Ryujinx like a week ahead of its release date, but Yuzu literally refused. They insta-banned anyone who talked about it.
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