I don’t really have time for extensive puzzle games anymore, so I watch a YouTuber named Aliensrock. He’s still playing it, and I’m so invested! It’s insane that a puzzle rougelite can work so well and be so engaging with the story and mysteries. There are multiple ways to figure out each puzzle (except one so far), which is fascinating.
A puzzle game that puts RNG in between the player and the ability to attempt a solution is something I’m not willing to tolerate.
how is it different from playing Riven with one of your sticks of RAM poorly seated so the computer crashes on a semi-regular basis resetting your progress?
No. Not for me. I’d be more interested in wearing the corner fire hydrant in my ass than playing that.
That question is the thesis statement of a 2 hour long video essay if ever I heard one.
Most games involve random chance somehow to make the game feel more alive and less deterministic, like in an early Zelda game, should the Octorok run 3, 4, 5, or 6 tiles forward? Should it turn left or right? Should it drop a rupee or a heard when killed? These I’m fine with.
In an RPG, things like monster encounter rates might use the RNG to simulate the behavior of a dungeon master, both “roll for initiative” and “I’ll have them encounter 4 groups of low level monsters on their way through the creepy forest.” Using an RNG and lookup table for that is a reasonable low overhead way to add some unpredictability and adventure to the game. Note: I don’t really play RPGs that much.
The term roguelike has started to be overused to mean any game that features procedural generation and permadeath. By that definition I think Tetris qualifies as a roguelike. The original Rogue kind of worked like a virtual dungeonmaster, it would create an RPG campaign for you to play in, and then it played like any RPG where you have to explore a dungeon, learn the mechanics etc. with permadeath and the consequence of having to relearn everything you’ve learned thusfar generating stakes and pressuring the player to survive, no “whatever, I’ll just die and respawn.” So that’s an innovative use of a computer random number generator. Most things that call themselves “roguelikes” are more “We designed a cool primary gameplay loop but can’t really be bothered with level design so here’s some procedural generation to beat your head against over and over again, maybe hoping to find a scenario you can possibly win.” Quite often, it’s not that the game randomly re-engineers itself, it throws the same pre-scripted things at you in a somewhat different order, so they end up playing more like old arcade games than an actual adventure.
A “roguelike” I’ve spent the most time with is FTL: Faster Than Light, and its roguelike structure is by far my least favorite feature. I don’t really like beating my head against the RNG hoping a permutation of combats, 50/50 “do you help with the giant spiders” encounters goes my way so that I have enough scrap, and that it gives me a shop with a useful array of weapons so that I have a chance at the end encounter.
Blue Prince takes the randomization to a whole other level. It might be compelling if it procedurally randomized the house for each playthrough such that you do have to learn YOUR way through it, and you have limited stamina so that each day you can only explore so far, but you can get upgrades to your stamina so that you can stay in the house longer and explore deeper, but…I can’t see the way they implemented the game’s RNG as anything other than flagrant disrespect of the player’s time.
The “AHA!” moment in a puzzle game is what you’re after. That hapens in the player’s mind. If the player thinks up the solution, but the mechanics of the game make it take a long time to implement, all you’re doing is grinding the player’s teeth together. And Blue Prince seems designed to maximize teeth grinding, because the player may know the solution to a puzzle, but contriving the circumstance necessary to implement that solution requires several unlikely rolls back to back to back to back to back.
Sorry, I’m just convinced it’s bad game design pretending to be novel.
Thanks for the long reply! To me, there is another element that RNG can add: the challenge of adapting. Think of x-com: you’re immediately told the odds that a shot will succeed, and have to decide whether to take that shot based on that chance and the consequences of it failing.
You know that on average things will work out fairly, but you have to be ready to push the successes without letting failure trip you up.
During most of the game, Blue Prince poses many different puzzles and riddles to you in parallel. If you focus on one thing you’ve had a eureka moment about, you’ll be frustrated with the lack of control, but if you approach the situation holistically, and pursue all puzzles at the same time based on what is available, it’s a very different experience. Your thought processes and realizations are shaped by the randomness of the day.
Furthermore there’s always an interesting strategy element of mitigating the chance by ensuring lots of redraws in different ways, upgrading rooms to serve several purposes, piling up resources between runs etc.
I do think it’s novel and interesting, though not necessarily the best idea in the world. To properly do the holistic approach I mention you need a massive infrastructure of photos and notes to keep track of all the clues you’re pursuing. I wish it had some kind of overview of found documents and clues, though I can see how that’s not so simple to implement for this game in particular.
From what I saw of Blue Prince, it would be like playing Return of the Obra Dinn, except after you get one of the death scenes and the soundtrack blarps at you for awhile, there’s the door unlock sound, and there’s a random chance it’s going to make you arbitrarily replay the game.
I’m just not on board with all the shit they piled in front of the mystery to solve.
While there is one main goal in front of you, all the shit they pile in front of you is more mystery, the solution of which will carry you closer to your goal.
It’s more like if Obra Dinn randomly had you play an Outer Wilds loop or Chants of Sennaar segment, with all the mysteries tying together.
Well… A puzzle is a challenge. In Blue Prince, part of the challenge is that you need to engage with the clues you have available, not necessarily the clues you hoped for. Removing that challenge is to remove part of the puzzle.
You’re fully within your right to say that’s not your cup of tea, but I think it does contribute something meaningful to the puzzling.
Putting a jigsaw puzzle together is a challenge. You could increase that challenge by requiring yourself to roll a die and getting 6 five times in a row before you’re allowed to try to fit a piece. Does that sound like good game design to you?
To me, the RNG feels fundamental to the puzzling in Blue Prince, not something that could be removed to make a better game. And Blue Prince is undeniably an interesting game.
Is RNG always bullshit? No; only a sith speaks in absolutes. There are appropriate uses of randomness in video games. Is RNG very often a source of bullshit? Absolutely. Do I feel like that’s the case in Blue Prince? ABSOLUTELY
“I got the pump room but not the boiler room again so I still can’t try doing the thing I’ve been trying to do.” Said players of a game designed to disrespect their time.
If, at the start of each in-game day, you were given all of the rooms you’d unlocked so far, and were allowed to arrange them however you like right then and there, and were then free to move around in it however much you please, would the game be worsened? I’m convinced it would only be improved, because pretty much all you would do is remove “Welp, for the fifteenth time, I know what I want to try, but random chance prevented me from doing so.”
The presentation is charming and the puzzles are intriguing but I think the community is putting up with the deeply terrible mechanics out of sheer novelty, and another game made like it isn’t going to be well received.
In a way it’s more fair by design. In a completely fair game the most skilled player will always win. In a game like Mario Kart everyone has a chance to win.
As a kid my family wouldn’t play most games with me because I won every time. If we couldn’t do co-op mode we didnt play, and they’d still get grumbly on co-op because I’d be doing the heavy lifting and showing them up. They’d play Mario Kart and Mario Party with me though.
As an e-sport or “compare your online rank to mine and weep” dick-measurer it sucks. As a video game its very good.
I’m 40, and I enjoy doing my taxes, choosing colors of paint, and reading the business section of the newspaper. I don’t listen to music or watch television or play video games.
I’m surprised people just scraped the sarcastic frosting off this cake and just ate it like a sad little honesty cake, bereft of anything good.
I have a bluetooth headset embedded to my skull and I listen to music basically constantly, my Steam Deck goes where I go, and unfortunately, I steal my television on the internets cause I can’t stand advertisements. (And, uhh… playing an instrument is out of the question for me, cause I’ve survived a couple of strokes and manual dexterity and a sense of rhythm are things best left for other people.)
Most of the time I’m writing or taking pictures though. I’ve got a portfolio that I’m building that spans twenty years!
But I should clarify: I am nowhere near anything like what I’ve presented above.
Heh. Tax returns and music should have been the giveaways, although I know someone who takes great satisfaction in taking every tax deduction they legally can, down to the last cent. :-P
I’m very confused… Before the steamdeck Alienware made steam boxes. We’re they good, meh. Would they sell like hot cakes today? Absolutely.
But calling a handheld PC a console is just weird. Nothing stops anyone from building a compact PC and just plugging it in to a tv… You could also just run steam os on it if you wanted to.
Yes. You can do that on PC. You can have steam run at startup andaunch straight into that one other mode it has. Or install steam os or bazzite etc. You don’t need a mouse and keyboard for a PC
The Steamdeck is as much of a PC as a PlayStation. As in yes they’re both PCs but specifically built for gaming. If you want to use them for other stuff you can but it’s not what most people buy them for. One runs BSD and the other Linux but the OS doesn’t determine what is and isn’t a PC. Your phone is a PC too. It’s an umbrella term.
If you must know, I'm actually not a Mario Kart fan, played the older ones but haven't touched the series since DS. More of a Kirby Air Ride and F-Zero GX kinda guy. But I can still understand the appeal well enough to not post this kind of thinly veiled "I'm mad that other people like something I don't" thread.
I think people are very much taking this less as an “I’m curious, why do people find this fun? I want to understand” post, and more of a condescending “I think it’s not fun because I have taste and am presuming people who think it is fun do not until proven otherwise, now prove me otherwise” post. Some people, including me until I saw these comments, were seeing your post body that tells us why you don’t like the game less as sharing your own perspective and wanting someone to show you a bright side, and more as trying to denigrate people who see it as fun. I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I think you can reread your post body and see how people might interpret a far less curious, far more judgmental tone from it.
To actually answer your question: I played Mario Kart Wii mostly as kid against the computer and other people, and a few times as an adult against other people. I like to think I was good at the game, that skill mattered and it wasn’t random and unfair. I won almost every time both against the computer, and against other humans. So I just didn’t perceive the game as “mostly random and unfair.” (Although now that I think of it, when I had the option I’d usually switch all items to Strategic against the computer, eliminating a lot of the catch-up items, so perhaps I did perceive it initially and just removed it from my experience to the point I don’t remember it? Although when I played against other humans it was usually on their console at their place with their settings, which probably didn’t have it set to Strategic.) The catch-up mechanics could sink me if I made a mistake, but if I drove well the whole course I almost always came out in front. Perhaps you’re thinking of later editions that I never played and have no opinion of, or the computer plays badly and the people I played against were bad at the game?
I can understand why, but I wanted to hear their reasons for it.
You make it sound like people make a pros and cons list before deciding whether to like something or not. We don’t choose what to like. People clearly have fun playing Mario Kart, that’s it.
Do people really get hours of fun out of losing races due to catch-up mechanics?
I regularly get blue shelled and I still smoke people. There’s still lots of strategy in the game and randomization is something that keeps games fresh. At the end of the day it’s an arcade racer, not everything has to be Gran Turismo
You got Jazz Jackrabbit to run on the steam deck? I tried to install everything GOG had available (including 2) and had no success with heroic. Teach me your ways.
I’ve been playing racing games ever since I was a kid but was never into Nintendo. I played everything from Crash Team Racing to Assetto Corsa and everything in between, but never own a Mario Kart game.
Just in the last year my roommate picked up a Wii U and I played through 8. It doesn’t necessarily do anything that other racing games haven’t individually done better and there’s nothing truly unique.
That being said, the one thing it does better than anyone else is precision and feedback. It is exceptionally tight and responsive compared to others like it. It’s also just incredibly well animated and visually consistent. The game still looks good a decade later, no issues.
I would akin a lot of what Nintendo does to Apple. Not necessarily the first, or the most powerful, but almost always the most polished.
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