Yeah I don’t really like the model where it starts basic and hard, and each failure makes it a little easier.
Feels like it would be more interesting if you started with high stats, and each successful run you had to remove or lower something. Sure, you won with 200 health but can you win with 100? Hades kind of had this alongside the upgrades as you go.
I didn’t like dead cells or rogue legacy that much because it felt like I would’ve won if I had grinded more, and that’s not what I want.
I feel like games are usually a mix of execution challenges and numbers challenges. In a pure action game or other games without progression (eg: chess) you win or lose from your decisions and input. But in numbers games, you win or lose based on the stats. There’s really no way cloud from the start of the original ff7 can defeat disc 3 bosses. The numbers just aren’t there.
Some rogue-lites feel like they’re trying to be execution games but have a less clear numbers check on top. Doesn’t always work for me.
I do really like the traditional rogue like Crawl: Stone Soup, though. No meta game aside from the occasional player ghost.
I like Team Ninja and the way they do character action, so I’m happy both Ninja Gaiden 4 and Nioh 3 were well reviewed and successful. Probably won’t jump into this for a long time due to my backlog (I’m working on Ninja Gaiden 4 at the moment, though!), but will most likely tentatively wishlist this for a future sale.
For a while, meta progression felt like a clever way to keep games fresh.
It always felt like a cop out to me, TBH. I’d rather you give me fewer tools and a lot of potential for synergy among them. Dead Cells definitely has more weapons than Dante has in DMC5, but the amount of shit you can pull off with Dante is insane in comparison because every weapon can do so much. People are still discovering new tech to this day: now that’s keeping things fresh.
More and more I feel like instead of removing the frustration, meta progression is removing the sense of improvement.
It always felt like this from the get-go. It needlessly muddies the water: am I progressing because I’m improving, or am I progressing because I’m unlocking more powerful weapons/perks? The answer is most likely a blend of both, but it’s never clear what’s the bigger reason.
I recommend Magenta Horizon or The Dishwasher if you want something similar to Rogue Legacy/Dead Cells without rogue elements.
Ya maybe one day. I also morally don’t want to support that behaviour.
Elden ring is the gold standard for me in multiplayer. It’s optional. It just requires you to be online. No account creation bullshit. And it’s a quality game also.
@cyberpunk007@Abundance114 that is if you play on PC. other platforms might require subscriptions of some kind in order to enable multiplayer feature(s).
For a while, meta progression felt like a clever way to keep games fresh. You’d unlock new gear, perks, or passive bonuses between runs, and that sense of forward motion made failure feel productive.
Sort of. Roguelike’s defining feature as a genre is the reset of all player progression between runs, and the random generation of the runs themselves. Basic progression is transitory, so a name for progression that goes outside the runs and doesn’t reset is useful
They say this one is even more combo heavy than the second one, but I see no launchers yet. I’ll be watching from afar until I see something that hooks me.
That’s funny, reading your post I immediately thought of Ball x Pitt, before you even mentioned it.
That being said, I actually loved that game, and obsessively played it for 60 hours. I think it took me 3 or 4 hours to beat the first level, but to me it felt very rewarding. For me it was more about figuring out the right ball evolutions and character selection to beat a level.
That did change for the later levels. After a while it became too easy, and it just felt like grinding to unlock the next thing. The harvesting component was actually a refreshing break between runs, and probably kept me playing longer than I would have otherwise.
Same for me. The start of the game was great. The difficulty just right. But most of the new characters are too strong. I stopped playing after I unlocked the duo upgrade, because there was simply no challenge left. I enjoyed it long enough to still recommend it for the price, but i feel like there is so much of the game left and I am somehow sorry I will never play it…
Kinda left field, but Teardown is an incredible game. You have leeway to destroy the environment however you want for as long as you want, but the second you touch one of the objectives a timer starts and you have to get the rest of the objectives and leave before time runs out. Essentially, you meticulously plan your route and make shortcuts for yourself using every tool at your disposal in a fully destructible voxel environment. Its so good
Victoria 3, still the undisputed king of world economic simulation. I had a blast with Vic 2, but I just can’t bring myself to support Paradox Interactive in their current form with ridiculous monetisation of DLC…
I sincerely wish these kinds of grinding games would keep the good name of Rogue out of their mouths. No, it's not -lite, it's the exact opposite of Rogue!
I’m gonna make an argument for Viscera Cleanup Detail. You asked for cleanup games that scratch a particular itch. This is a sci-fi setting that puts you in charge of cleaning up after some horrific space disaster. Each map tells its own story through the evidence you’re tasked with incinerating.
If we can put Powerwash Simulator up there, we have to acknowledge the violent, gory, and hilariously janky physics older cousin that is VCD. It’s even got a sense of humor to it, which is another link to Shipbreaker.
If you don’t mind carrying a bin of severed arms, grab VCD.
It’s really fun with friends. Constant yelling at who the tell tipped over the gore bucket, or whose bloody footprints cross the freshly cleaned hallway.
I’m a huge fan of rogue-lites. I don’t think I’ve come across any meta-progression mechanic that has bothered me as much as you say.
Hades was probably the most jarring example for me. Mirror upgrades made the game significantly easier and there was little chance of a beginner rogue-lite player managing to complete a run without these. Then by the time the mirror upgrades were unlocked then it felt like I needed to rapidly turn up the “heat” to keep the game challenging at all. I can see why they’ve made such a drastic difficulty curve because they’re appealing to a wider audience than normal rogue-lite audiences (Binding of Isaac audiences would never tolerate such hand holding). I’m still fine with that.
I’ve got a bigger problem with abilities/items being locked behind impossible difficulty. Some items I will never unlock in Dead Cells, because I will never be able to do 5BC (got to 4BC max). Same with Enter the Gungeon and beating the final final boss and extra bosses. In those cases I wonder why the devs have made aspects of the game that the majority of the population will never get to engage with. I just download a 100% completed save file when I’ve made all the progress I could have. I think we should be given the option to access all unlocks after 100 or 150 hours of gameplay or some such option.
Overall, I’ve got no problem with the inclusion of meta-progression (or not). If they implement it well and make a fun game, that’s all that matters to me.
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Aktywne