For League of Legends the definitive way to play is to not start. I swear I do not know of any other game that has such addictive properties while being so absolutely fucking awful. You don’t stop playing this game, You take extended breaks.
Friends don’t let friends play League
Hahaha I’m also the kind of person who has never bought a single cosmetic in a video game. I think I just don’t have an addictive personality generally.
I was the same way. Got about 20 hours in and just couldn’t get into it. I played with friends, bot matches, ranked, a variety of characters, and just never got the appeal. I really don’t have a competitive spirit, so maybe that’s the draw I’m not getting.
Not much to add, but this was true from the beginning for me. I have “Roguelike” excluded from my Steam searches because around the time Hades got popular it was a source of so much slop where you’d spend most of your hours in the first two levels. Many of those games I hated were highly regarded.
I very much dislike roguelikes. It always feels patronizing: aww too bad, if you were good enough you actually could have beaten the game, but let’s make it just a little easier. Then it takes so many runs to make an appreciable difference in my abilities or skills that it feels worse than grinding in an RPG (especially because at least with grinding I know I’m going to make progress…I actually might not make any difference with several failed runs).
I also think it’s lazy programming. The game is actually only an hour long or less but you get more time out of it because you need to repeat. Add the fact that roguelikes are almost exclusively procedurally generated and it just feels like a cash grab.
The ONLY roguelike I’ve played any appreciable amount is Hades, and I keep putting it down after a few hours of playtime to pick it up months later. They at least have a lot of interesting dialogue and some element of story but it’s not enough to keep me hooked.
aww, too bad, if you were good enough you could have beaten the game, but let’s make it a little easier
Yeah, that’s pretty awful game design. Most of the ones i’ve played didn’t feel like that, usually you’d unlock new classes or something (I.e. sidegrades) or unlock harder difficulties.
And of course my favorite ones don’t have any meta progression whatsoever, the only progression comes from you learning about the game.
One of my all time favorite games is Cultist Simulator, but I’ll admit it’s not for everyone. If you like puzzle type games and don’t mind learning about the world by reading lots of little snippets of flavor text, it’ll be right up your alley.
Also definitely check out Rogue (the og) and the first wave of games inspired by it. The meta-progression stuff is kind of a new wave thing.
As for newer games, Balatro is really popular right now if you’re into more ‘puzzle roguelikes’. Most of the things you unlock make the game harder rather than easier, or give you a different angle from which to play the game. There are a handful of things you have to unlock via meta-progression, but so far they seem pretty unintrusive.
Add the fact that roguelikes are almost exclusively procedurally generate
If they’re not procedurally generated, they’re not roguelikes. It’s a defining feature. It’s also not lazy to define a set of rules that generate good, interesting levels every time you boot it up. I’m basically the only guy who didn’t enjoy Hades, and a large reason why is that their level generation is sorely lacking compared to so many others (though Hades is more lite than like) I’ve played.
I have a very low opinion of “sidegrades.” Games used to give you all their options up front.
This overwhelming trend during the past 15, 20 years to trickle-feed the player unlocks does untold harm. For one, players are rarely ever talking about the same game because everyone is at different points in the progression. The actual game doesn’t start until the final thing is unlocked and this is often a place that most players will never reach.
Can’t tell you how much advice I’ve read that goes something like “use X with Y” where at least one of those is locked behind 50 more hours of progression and my eyes once again roll all the way out of my head. As a developer, don’t you want players to experiment with the things you put in the game?
Can’t tell you how refreshing it is to play a game like NetHack where I can install a fresh copy and not have to worry about managing my save files because everything that’s in the game is… in the game. Also, a quick study can start winning games much sooner because their options aren’t all gated behind arbitrary time sinks.
But even just… skin selection in multiplayer. Games used to give you ALL of them from the start and players could just, you know, pick the one they liked. This whole ‘grind to show off how cool you are’ is a dark pattern to coerce players to spend more time on the game than they want to.
You know what this is, is developers are catering to diamonds and they forgot that some of us are spades.
That is exact;y how I feel about MMORPGs. Limited event items, items available at specific levels but you're going to be there grinding and grinding for hours. You might not even get that thing anyways until what was 9 hours of grinding turns into 7 days of grinding. That's not progressing, that's sweatshop levels of work. How is this fun? How is this rewarding? You go through all of that and all you get is maybe a few pats on the back before everyone is back at the woodwork again.
I don't like any game that makes you feel like you've got to live on it to go anywhere. Sure, I play Diablo 2 which by guilt, can fall into the same category. But I make that an exception per my preferences. It's like that's the only game I'll only have room for that I don't mind doing it for, but any other game, I can't be bothered and it is just dropped dead cold.
This is also why people hate mobile games because their premise largely can constitute dark patterns.
Developers who make these games want you to have a sense of "pride and accomplishment" (like EA expected you to). But all I feel at the end of the day? "FUCK YOU DEVELOPERS, GO TO FUCKING HELL!!"
The antithesis to what you and OP are describing would be The legend of Zelda: Breath of the wild. But even fans of that formula are tired of it after 2 games in the series because as much freedom as it gives you, it‘s overwhelming.
I think what I‘m trying to say is that trends have cycles. They come and go. What you said is a valid opinion that I can kot possibly disagree with. However, these down sides become more apparent with time until we‘ve had enough and move on to the next thing. I am sure we‘ll remember most of those games fondly one day regardless. Nostalgia will kick in one day and we‘re able to look past the flaws again.
That link to the different player types was very interesting. I’m somewhere between an Achiever and Explorer. Probably more explorer, but I am a sucker for hitting the next level, gear upgrade, etc.
The last console I owned was a PS3, and I don’t plan on ever having another. Sony thankfully mostly got with the program and released a bunch of their stuff on PC, but Bloodborne remains a standout.
Emulating bloodborne is really good now. It is 100% playable with rare minor bugs now. Highly recommend playing it. It’s the best souls orne out there. Imo
So I will be honest and say I have a beefy computer. Intel i9 13900k and a 4090. But I run it at 1440p at 60fps. I see people playing it on the steam deck but I haven’t tried that myself.
Considering the raging success of Borderlands 2, I feel like TPS was more than serviceable. It was received quite badly, even though the gameplay was the same as 2 and the story was at least 65% as good as 2. Maybe the playable characters were not as great. But the world was very well crafted and I actually loved the way the Eridian arc was so much more present, even though there is no Siren character.
I’m currently doing 4. It feels like a soft hommage to the first game, but it also has some references to TPS. But it also feels like it was made for people who don’t even know there are previous games. Of course, the ones who played the original are maybe outside the target demographic, which was already the case with 3 going by the villains of that game.
In short: I still love all Borderlands games equally and The PreSequel is definitely up there!
See I liked the story of TPS, but I just couldn’t get into the gameplay myself. It was A LOT of the same from BL2, which you would think I’d love considering BL2 is one of my favorite games of all time.
But it felt as if they stripped away some of the things that made it great in 2, and then they slapped on that stupid Oxygen system on top of generally boring zones.
Mainly I just hated the fuckin oxygen though (and yes I know, you could play Claptrap and not deal with it, but I wanted to be Athena dammit.)
I can see how the oxygen thing gets frustrating in some early points in the game, but at some point it really doesn’t matter much anymore. You’d either never die from it anyway or ride a Stingray everywhere.
In 4 they did the same flying mechanics but without the oxygen which is kind of cool.
Oxygen is forgettable. It barely has a gameplay impact and seems to only exist to support the space theme.
But the grinder, I miss when I play 2 or 3. It gave me a reason to look at loot more closely and collect more, even if it was low rarity or irrelevant to my build. I liked having a more controllable way to get new weapons as an alternative to relying on drops and vendors. It’s also a good sink for moonstones.
In a game about loot, making you care about loot is pretty important. In the other games, there’s pretty much no reason to care about white and green drops, so why even drop them?
For me, intend to dislike pure roguelikes because of the lack of meta progression. I tend to get a limited amount of time to play, so I don’t like games that require a time sink to get enjoyment. And as I get older I’m getting less ‘gud’ at games too. This is the reason I avoid almost all multiplayer, most grindy single player (ubisoft) and pretty much all soulslikes.
I like the feedback loop of the game getting easier without me necessarily having to do the heavy lifting of getting better. And it doesn’t have to be straight upgrades. Hades with its weapons is mostly sidegrades, and those are fun too.
I agree. I couldn't finish Hollow Knight because my reaction times just aren't what they used to be. It sucked because otherwise I love that game. I haven't even attempted Silksong.
I think a good evolution of roguelite meta-progression is actually extraction mechanics.
Like escape from duckov etc. is essentially a roguelite where you have to survive and extract with your meta items, which I think is better for keeping you on your toes and feels less “grindy” than traditional roguelite meta-currency.
I feel like this is why I dropped playing many rogue-likes and am currently addicted to playing arc raiders, as you lose so many things if you die and have to self-evaluate every single time you don’t get home.
I have to get home and survive in order to actually grow my character positively, where dying punishes me for losing (almost) everything and gaining very little experience points to allocate to my characters permanent buffs.
It was never “clever” or “keeping the game fresh”, all I see this as is a crutch for badly designed gameplay. “Ok but the game gets fun as long as you play it THE WAY WE INTENDED” no I’m sorry if you’re gonna keep the game’s actually fun part behind a 30-hour time gate, I’m refunding that shit. There’s been games that were fun, but I lost my safe file for and thus all the progression is reset and it’s just not fun to grind anymore, I’ll go play something that gives me the whole game that I paid for, right off the bat.
Yeah I don’t really like the model where it starts basic and hard, and each failure makes it a little easier.
Feels like it would be more interesting if you started with high stats, and each successful run you had to remove or lower something. Sure, you won with 200 health but can you win with 100? Hades kind of had this alongside the upgrades as you go.
I didn’t like dead cells or rogue legacy that much because it felt like I would’ve won if I had grinded more, and that’s not what I want.
I feel like games are usually a mix of execution challenges and numbers challenges. In a pure action game or other games without progression (eg: chess) you win or lose from your decisions and input. But in numbers games, you win or lose based on the stats. There’s really no way cloud from the start of the original ff7 can defeat disc 3 bosses. The numbers just aren’t there.
Some rogue-lites feel like they’re trying to be execution games but have a less clear numbers check on top. Doesn’t always work for me.
I do really like the traditional rogue like Crawl: Stone Soup, though. No meta game aside from the occasional player ghost.
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