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notepass, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield

The problem is so severe, in fact, that the aforementioned translation layer had to be updated specifically to handle Starfield as an exception to the usual handling of the issue.

“I had to fix your shit in my shit because your shit was so fucked that it fucked my shit”

Blackmist,

This is how games and drivers have been for decades.

There are huge teams at AMD and nVidia who’s job it is to fix shit game code in the drivers. That’s why (a) they’re massive and (b) you need new drivers all the time if you play new games.

I read an excellent post a while ago here, by Promit.

www.gamedev.net/forums/topic/…/5215019/

It’s interesting to see that in the 8 years since he wrote it, the SLI/Crossfire solution has simply been to completely abandon it, and that we still seem to be stuck in the same position for DX12. Your average game devs still have little idea how to get the best performance from the hardware, and hardware vendors are still patching things under the hood so they don’t look bad on benchmarks.

frododouchebaggins,

Your average game devs still have little idea how to get the best performance from the hardware, and hardware vendors are still patching things under the hood so they don’t look bad on benchmarks.

Yes they do. We know they do because current gen consoles are frequently providing better fidelity and better stability than PC games. Not because PCs have inferior hardware. But because optimization is actually incredibly hard when your custom base is all running different hardware AND different drivers. So even when the hardware is “the same”, it’s not.

This has been true forever. It just took 30 years for high performance computing to be affordable enough to put in consoles. 30 years was a long time for PC gamers to feel superior. Now they enjoy humble pie and make comments like this on the internet to explain why things are so “bad”.

PC games are still great. Don’t let this bother you more than it should.

Redditiscancer789,

Lol

stonedemoman, (edited )

To attribute this most recent failure to an overabundance of hardware variety is a joke. This issue persists on all Nvidia and Intel cards. Why? Because it’s an oversight pertaining to one thing they all share in common: their shared interaction with DirectX.

Let me repeat myself for the people in the back. The number of items they had to account for with this failure is one. One API.

emax_gomax,

This sounds more like hardware manufacturers haven’t provided a good enough abstraction layer across their devices, or they did (vulkan) but everyone is just stuck on bad apis that don’t properly map to the abstractions for the hardware. Or even more likely the publishers cheaped out and pushed something to release when it wasn’t ready like they have been forever.

Shadywack,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

It’s also a lack of specialized talent. There’s lots of great “talent” at game devs and even middleware devs. There’s just not much great talent that deals with renderers and API development. The vast majority of devs just lean on the middleware developer to push out the renderer codebase. In a situation like Bethesda running their own studio engine, they just don’t have the right people for it. This plagued the 90’s when people were trying to code for Glide, OGL, DX5,6,7,8, and 9. Many studios folded because they couldn’t get their tech to work with hardware acceleration.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

There’s just not much great talent that deals with renderers and API development.

*for current wage

Shadywack,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

Excellent point.

Redredme,

Pc gaming is and forever will be way better then games on consoles.

Why?

I’ve 3 letters for you.

R G B

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

tbf pc gaming was always a fight for performance, I never felt superior back in the day fighting with qemm, irqs for the soundblaster or glide3d, it’s always had been a shitshow. It was a super shitshow in the nineties, it was a bit better in the zero’s and nowadays it again became a tad better.

But somehow I enjoyed that shitshow. Still do.

mattreb,

I’ll give a different perspective on what you said: dx12 basically moved half of the complexity that would normally be managed by a driver, to the game / engine dev, which already have too much stuff to do: making the game. The idea is that “the game dev knows best how to optimize for its specific usage” but in reality the game dev have no time to deal with hardware complexity and this is the result.

NocturnalMorning,

They released on two different platforms. PCs have so much variation in hardware, it’s not surprising there are issues with it.

AFaithfulNihilist,
@AFaithfulNihilist@lemmy.world avatar

It’s poorly optimized code, and the comments from the top brass has been “lol your PC sux” when they can’t even get it running right on their own hardware.

It’s not the variations of PC that’s the issue, it’s a design and quality control issue. Direct X and Vulkan are the bread and butter of PC gaming. Microsoft developed direct X to establish a common graphics framework for Windows and Microsoft game studio still fucked up working with it.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

common graphics framework for Windows

They could have picked Khronos’ APIs. They think they are smarter than everyone else including GPU developers.

Hadriscus,

This is just classic corpo shit, developing their own proprietary stuff when no one asked for it. Apple with Metal too. Then it falls on developers to write abstraction layers

Viking_Hippie,

As far as wedding vows go, they’re not the MOST romantic… 🤷

Hadriscus,

As far as I know that’s what graphics drivers do, like, all the time. Every major title is handled specifically. I am not a developer. I heard this from engine developers

TheOnlyMego, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield

People figured out the performance issues with Starfield when it was first announced: the Bethesda logo

Neato,
@Neato@kbin.social avatar

Creation Engine 2.0.

AKA Creation Engine 1.0 with more patches than a 1sqmi quilt.

aksdb,

Evolution isn’t wrong. It’s not like Unreal Engine gets rewritten from scratch for each major version.

jjjalljs,

That’s not really a good metaphor for software.

Or maybe it is if you meant how many weird and inefficient things living creatures have because it was good enough. Think about that the next time you accidentally choke on nothing

aksdb,
Virkkunen,
@Virkkunen@kbin.social avatar

Exactly, people forget that most of the well known engines today are as old or older than Creation Engine, they're all patched/upgraded as it fits, though Creation Engine has no apparent version numbers and it's made by Bethesda so you get free internet points and a feeling of superiority for hating on the popular thing.

If you took these folks opinions as truth you'd think Bethesda games are massive flops that barely sell 10 copies and are a study case on how not to develop a game, but the real world is very different from the echo chamber...

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

It boggles my mind how many things people say about this game that are patently untrue, obviously extremely biased against the game/studio, or make it seem like this game killed their dog.

The game has issues, for sure, some things like the nonexistent city/building local map systems are indefensible, but damn dude, I wish people would just try to have mature discussions with realistic expectations about it instead of whatever this shit show is that we call "gaming discussions"

Cypher,

For $120 AUD expectations will be high.

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

Sure, if the game doesn't appeal to you for that value, then there will be eventual sales. It won't be worth that amount to everyone. Doesn't really excuse the overly emotional criticism, or even the overly emotional defense from others. It's a good game. A true value judgment from there will be harder and more tied to individual tastes.

Virkkunen,
@Virkkunen@kbin.social avatar

Gamers will never be mature or have realistic expectations. They cannot fathom that people are enjoying a thing they don't like, and they're very vocal about it, it's petty, really.

I try to move myself off of these discussions but there's always one comment that drags me down the well because it's so blatantly untrue, but it's miserable. Lemmy, kbin and Reddit are overly negative places where it seems the goal is to get everyone mad with terrible takes.

People need to remember that opinions aren't factsz and learn to shut the fuck up and let people enjoy things.

stonedemoman, (edited )

Gamers will never be mature or have realistic expectations. They cannot fathom that people are enjoying a thing they don’t like, and they’re very vocal about it, it’s petty, really.

You want people to have more mature discussions but then disavow any nuance in the same breath. Do you not see how this is a contradiction?

TheOnlyMego,

Oh don’t get me wrong, Bethesda games are generally great (with notable exceptions like Fallout 76), and do phenomenally well in sales. However, dismissing any and all criticism of the games’ numerous flaws (including glitches which often carry over between subsequent titles, like clipping through collision boxes and falling through maps) is willful ignorance at its finest. Every Bethesda game has performance issues and game-breaking bugs, and there was no reason to expect Starfield to be any different in that regard.

SwampYankee,

clipping through collision boxes and falling through maps

These are famously common bugs across games in all genres running on all kinds of different engines. I’d go so far as to not even call them bugs because computers simply don’t have the power to calculate collision down to the picosecond/picometer. Every game that’s ever been made has sacrificed precision in physics for performance.

Perhaps the reason it’s more noticeable in Bethesda games is because they typically have way more persistent, physics-enabled objects. That’s actually a strength of the engine, and something no other developer really even attempts.

TheOnlyMego,

These are famously common bugs across games in all genres running on all kinds of different engines.

Correct, but we aren’t talking about them. Whataboutism isn’t constructive.

I’d go so far as to not even call them bugs because computers simply don’t have the power to calculate collision down to the picosecond/picometer.

Actually, a large proportion of OoB clips in games are due to some combination of lacking speed caps and having acute angles in collision boxes.

Every game that’s ever been made has sacrificed precision in physics for performance.

Correct, and I’m not disputing this.

Perhaps the reason it’s more noticeable in Bethesda games is because they typically have way more persistent, physics-enabled objects.

This definitely contributes to the issues common in Bethesda games, but it’s not the only reason. Take Skyrim for example: some of its best-known glitches (such as restoration bonuses buffing enchantments, the various duplication glitches, and basically everything involving horses) have nothing to do with the number of dynamic objects loaded.

That’s actually a strength of the engine, and something no other developer really even attempts.

Not really - plenty of other games use Havok physics and don’t suffer from the same issues, or at least not to the same degree. Perhaps there’s a reason other developers using the Havok physics engine don’t make games with huge quantities of dynamic objects loaded at once.

SwampYankee,

Correct, but we aren’t talking about them.

Uh… you were talking about them. Those are the two examples of bugs that you provided. I literally wouldn’t have made the comment if you hadn’t brought them up.

such as restoration bonuses buffing enchantments, the various duplication glitches, and basically everything involving horses

Like if you had said these originally, I wouldn’t have even argued with you. I never personally experienced those bugs, probably because I don’t play games like I’m a QA tester, but I know many people did.

Not really - plenty of other games use Havok physics and don’t suffer from the same issues, or at least not to the same degree. Perhaps there’s a reason other developers using the Havok physics engine don’t make games with huge quantities of dynamic objects loaded at once.

I’ve definitely fallen through the world in several of the games listed there. But anyway, specifically, I said persistent physics objects. You can drop a cabbage in Whiterun, walk to Solitude and back, and the cabbage is right where you left it. In, say, GTA, you get out of your car and look away for 5 seconds, turn around, and it’s gone. Most games work more like GTA, where a limited number of objects even have full physics simulation, and those that do are only in memory if you’ve looked at them in the last x seconds. Otherwise, they unload and are lost forever.

Now, whether it’s even worth having so much physics-enabled clutter is another question. It certainly contributes to immersion, but is it more trouble than it’s worth?

executivechimp,
@executivechimp@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Or the Source 2 engine, which is just a patched version of the Quake 1 engine.

Edgelord_Of_Tomorrow,

Evolution frequently discards baggage.

Bethesda just keep piling shit on top without doing any of the necessary groundwork to make it run well.

KingThrillgore,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

You can only reinvent the Bounding Box once. Epic is a better steward of technical debt. Bethesda doesn’t know what that is.

sheogorath,

But with the optimization quality of current UE 5 games I’m quite pessimistic about the current trend of game development.

Rough_N_Ready,

Except unreal engine literally was rewritten from 3 to 4.

aksdb,

Which is, literally, not every major version. I didn’t say “all Unreal Engine versions are evolutionary steps over their predecessors”, I said “they don’t get rewritten from scratch for each major version”.

Someone else also brought up the Quake engine, which has even more evolutionary steps; even with forks like the Source engine.

altima_neo,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

aka Gamebryo

Virkkunen,
@Virkkunen@kbin.social avatar

That's the engine in which Creation Engine was based on, so what? Saying that name won't somehow invalidate everything that was developed using the two engines or accomplish anything really. By your logic, we should call Source 2 engine the Quake engine

XPost3000,

I know you say that as a joke but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Bethesda splash screen genuinely had some actual performance cost

KTVX94, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield

“Just update your PC bro”

Abnorc,

It’s running fine on my RTX 5090.

TheJackalChan,

Honestly never knew there were people having performance issues. I haven’t really gone to any communities discussing the game til now and the game runs fine on my PC.

filcuk,

Bless my old pre-shortage 2070 S, medium on a 2K screen without any issues.

TheJackalChan, (edited )

Maybe it’s because I’m only running at 1920x1080, but it runs fine for me on high settings.

Abnorc,

TBH I was joking. I can’t personally vouch for any issues as I haven’t played.

Poopfeast420, do gaming w Latest Nvidia driver improves Starfield performance on RTX 30 and 40 series
@Poopfeast420@kbin.social avatar

Last I read, the performance improvements are mainly related to ReBAR, which you could have manually activated before. A noticeable improvement, but not what some people might have expected or wanted.

finthechat, do gaming w Review: Eternights
@finthechat@kbin.social avatar

A lot of snark in this reviewer's writing style. I get that it's her opinion and her freedom to write like that, but man it was annoying to read.

Still, is a bit of a shame to hear that this title did not seem to execute well, since it has cool art, fits a niche that I like, and is from an indie dev - all of which are reasons that had kept me interested in this game since I first heard about it a year ago.

stevedidWHAT, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield
@stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

Bethesda needs to start handing out checks to these people for fixing their fucking games dude

nailbar,

Maybe it’s their business model to have players fix the games for free?

stevedidWHAT,
@stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

And you know to some extent, having a community help you with your games and find bugs is beautiful and probably pretty fucking cool for devs. But the fact is that the business side of things continues to put a sour taste in all of our mouths, devs included.

I really hope AI and the like push game devs out of big businesses and into self employment. Of all the types of people, I want problem solvers to have that life the most.

NocturnalMorning,

AI is still pretty bad at writing code, and often makes up API calls that dont exist. I wouldnt get your hopes up just yet.

stevedidWHAT,
@stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

Oh I’m aware haha. However I do wanna point out how much of an improvement gpt4 is compared to 3.5. The improvements have been pretty awesome imo even if they do tweak the ways you have to word things.

Ik a lot of people bitch and moan about how bad it is but I’ve had nothing but luck after pivoting around and wording things differently, following different techniques. But I get not everyone likes adapting so much so it’s fine ig.

As far as coding goes though I’m not mad about it being ass. That’s prolly the last part we should get working real well considering the implications for abuse we face now without considering the ability for it to write infinite offspring… :)

Black mirror should do an entire season on AI imo I think it would fucking kill

Lols,

deleted_by_author

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  • stevedidWHAT,
    @stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

    You have completely misinterpreted what I said.

    I specifically said self employed which does not mean:

    • unemployed
    • making less than what they were
    • are in any way disappointed with the decision to work from home, on their own terms and rules.

    Weirdo capitalist begone.

    Lols,

    being ‘pushed out of big businesses’ because a machine can do the same work for cheaper generally doesnt come with connotations of a stronger position to negotiate for the actual workers

    Weirdo capitalist begone

    lol

    stevedidWHAT,
    @stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

    Who was talking about automation?

    I didn’t say pushed out by big business, is said out of. Meaning, they had some form of motivation which was strong enough to move them out of big business dude.

    Why are you picking a fight with someone who literally is wishing the best for devs lmao.

    Lols,

    im not picking a fight

    you said i misinterpreted your comment, i read it back and deleted my original comment, and explained where the misinterpretation came from

    stevedidWHAT,
    @stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

    Gotcha sorry about that, didn’t see you had deleted that’s my fault for not doing more diligence

    zurohki,

    having a community help you with your games and find bugs is beautiful and probably pretty fucking cool for devs.

    That’s all well and fine for free open source projects, but products that expect me to pay money for them need to pay contributors. I’m not donating my time and effort so that some shareholder can buy another yacht.

    stevedidWHAT,
    @stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

    Right, the business side of things again

    Totally agree. If it were just a down to devs and players as in open source projects, it’d be a much different story

    bfg9k,

    Has been since Oblivion.

    Hadriscus, (edited )

    Morrowind has a massive unofficial patch/esp as well

    Ser_Salty,

    Well, they do hire a ton of modders

    stevedidWHAT,
    @stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

    Answer me this:

    Is it helping tho? 😂

    WHYAREWEALLCAPS,

    But are they hiring the right modders?

    Ser_Salty,

    They hired multiple from the very impressive Fallout London project, and also hired Elianora to help out with the interiors and lighting in Starfield

    So, yes.

    WHYAREWEALLCAPS,

    They owe them quite a lot…

    stevedidWHAT,
    @stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

    WHAT DID YOU SAY

    FrankTheHealer,

    Honestly, those Unofficial Patch mods for Skyrim and Fallout are amazing.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    People actually need to stop doing Bethesda’s work for them. Release after release they just push out buggy and unfinished product and community fixes it for them while they somehow take credit. FO76 was a huge mess exactly because people couldn’t fix it. Bethesda is bad, and people need to see it as such. Paying full price for their products is downright insulting.

    stevedidWHAT,
    @stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

    I think if they would just price the games more fairly and in accordance with how the game actually plays then that’d be a different story.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Why would they. Corporations are always most amount of money for least amount of work. Bethesda is lucky, people claim they love their games after community patches them. So they pay full price and never finish anything.

    Magnus, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield

    I’m convinced large video game publishers make deals with graphics card manufacturers to force the end user to upgrade, the AMD and Nvidia deals are not for free access to new technology it’s for which ever bids the highest price to sell more cards. There is little progression in graphics fidelity since 2016. We used to take giant leaps and now we take small insignificant steps.

    Hadriscus, (edited )

    Fidelity is always going to have diminishing returns. Perhaps there’s something fishy going on in the video card business, I don’t know that, but as someone who works in CGI, the evolution we see year after year makes sense, it’s not like there’s a hidden untapped potential

    Chobbes,

    I’m not sure if it’s such a direct conspiracy, but I’m sure some of this happens inadvertently at least. Developers of big budget games are likely going to target higher end hardware, and API usage that might cause problems on lower end hardware probably sneaks in as a result of that. I’m sure there’s some deals between game studios and Nvidia / AMD to get the latest GPUs for workstations at some discount, which probably means the machines they’re using for the bulk of development are beefier than the average consumer’s (you also probably want a bit of headroom while developing)… But this kind of stuff can naturally lead to higher requirements for software because you don’t run into performance issues unless you’re very serious about testing on lower end hardware… Which you might care about to some extent, but it’s an additional cost that can take away from other aspects of the game, which might make it less marketable (graphics are a big deal for marketing, for example).

    Obviously it’s not great if a game uses API calls inefficiently and that means it runs worse than it would otherwise… But I’m not really that surprised when it happens? Working on big projects on deadlines there’s often a “try the obvious solution, worry later if it’s too slow” mentality, and I’m not sure you need any more of a conspiracy than that to account for stuff like this.

    DoucheBagMcSwag, do gaming w Official Nvidia DLSS support coming to Starfield after all

    After the timed AMD deal of course

    stonedemoman, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield

    I’m eagerly awaiting the radio silence from all the people blaming it on obsolete hardware lol

    Overall I like the game though, it has a lot of very entertaining ideas.

    tiltmachine,

    You’re just taking the claim of some random guy and a website at face value though.

    stonedemoman, (edited )

    It’s not just “some guy”, it’s a translation layer developer posting all of his findings on his git: github.com/…/88e4f300cc0b5b6f0880c1233d562cf506b5…

    It’s also verified by Proton users noting a marked increase in performance with just a code commit. I’d urge anyone not to listen to this troll and go have a look.

    wizardbeard,
    @wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    This really isn’t a good take when the “random guy” has provided proof, open source code demonstrating, and a relatively easy way to verify his claims (using his code).

    It’s all there out in the open if anyone has specific counter points, and this type of thing isn’t an unusual situation with Bethesda developed games, or games on this engine.

    circuitfarmer,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    It’s clearly not due to obsolete hardware. Not getting 60fps in New Atlantis while playing on a beast with 50-70% usage max points to optimization issues. I honestly don’t know why those people think it’s hardware

    Oh it’s because Todd Howard said so

    IEatAsbestos,

    I dont understand how this is even an argument dude, bethesda has the worst reputation for this stuff. Literally every game they have released has been buggy as shit with terrible performance, but for some reason people just handwave it and say “its a bethesda game” when did they get so brainwashed, why is it acceptable for them??

    circuitfarmer,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    I’m saying the game needs fixing. Did you think I was saying something else?

    stonedemoman,

    Yeah, exactly. I’m getting tired of this too. Even with all of the evidence in the world that this issue is halving game performance people are still dismissing it. $1000 dollars worth of performance I paid for down the drain and yet “a smooth 60 FPS” is enough justification for people.

    It’s like if somebody sold you a full-priced V8 that had 4 of the cylinders not firing and your peers telling you to deal with it because “at least it runs”.

    Redditiscancer789,

    I mean people are trying to say it’s another FO76. It’s not even remotely close to another FO76.

    assassin_aragorn,

    It blows my mind how critical everyone was of Cyberpunk, despite it running fairly well on PC especially a few weeks after release, and how much of a pass everyone gives Starfield.

    CrypticFawn, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    I’ll play in a year after most of the bug and performance issues are fixed. Which seems like my typical response to any major game release these days; just wait a few months at first.

    Bodongs, (edited )

    The issues are way overblown. I have a mid tier system as best (2070S 8700k) and with the DLSS mod and some performance tweaks I play on Ultra.

    Edit: down vote all you want losers you’re still wrong.

    Huschke,

    The issues are way overblown. I just bought a new car and with brand new tires and a few tweaks from my local repair shop I can go the speed limit now.

    ohcamlmycaml,

    How is a 2070S equivalent to a new car?

    regbin_,

    I love Starfield and has been playing it every day since launch. It runs like dogshit. Sure it doesn’t stutter or anything but I can’t, for the life of me, get the average FPS in outdoor areas to be anything higher than 70. 5800X + 3080 Ti. It doesn’t matter how much I lower the setting, the CPU overhead is crazy.

    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    so it does not stutter or anything and it does run on an average of 70fps outside and in taxing environments and you are describing this as dogshit?

    lol. no further questions.

    stonedemoman,

    Give it up mate, even the first rudimentary workaround more than doubled the FPS people have been getting. linustechtips.com/…/1530726-starfield-now-runs-tw…

    avater, (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    I won’t click on a LinusTechTip Link 😀

    And I dont say the game could be better optimised, but to say that a stutter-free expierence with an average of 70 fps is “runing like dogshit” is some kind of special. Could it be better, yes, is it running like dogshit, nope.

    stonedemoman,

    🤦 So you’ll just continue to ignore overwhelming evidence and get defensive. It’s ironic you’d call them special.

    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    70 fps on average without any kind of wrong framepacing or stuttering is not “running like dogshit”, thats my whole point, “mate”. If the the game would run with 30 fps and crazy frame spikes on modern hardware I would agree but to call a >60fps stutterfree expierence that is just supid, on every game.

    stonedemoman,

    If you wouldn’t call having your performance more than halved dogshit, I don’t really give a fuck what you have to say.

    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t really give a fuck what you have to say.

    Feel free to not answer to my posts. Please. I’m more than fine never to hear from you again…

    Stahlreck,

    He’s kinda right though. You are partially too, the game doesn’t run great but it runs fine. Definitely not dogshit. Hogwarts ran way worse for what it was with similar performance but also tons of stuttering on the best setups not to mention lots of crashing in multiple big AAA games this year. Starfield afaik has none of that, it just has lower than expected FPS but not terribly so.

    stonedemoman,

    By the standard of being playable, I get that. But I’m not here to mince words. When you zoom out and look at the big picture, this one incorrectly used driver call turns a 3080ti into a 2060. A $1000 difference in performance. Defending Bethesda is just going to make future issues worse and worse.

    Stahlreck,

    I guess. I do have the luxury of having a 4090 and I’ve simply seen much smaller games with similar graphics run…similar if not much worse than this. Perhaps others have a different experience but besides the frames being lower than I would like I’m kinda glad such a huge game doesn’t constantly crash for me or stutter every time is press the “sprint” button in a crowded area.

    I do hope for improvement though

    stonedemoman, (edited )

    Other people in these comments have been reporting Starfield crashes, some of which “brick a character” apparently if it happens on an exit save (which you can’t opt out of lol). Any sentiment of “it could be worse” just weakens our position as consumers IMO.

    regbin_,

    If I set the resolution to 1024x768 and the graphics to Low but the FPS is still the same, something is wrong.

    Buddahriffic,

    That just means the bottleneck isn’t graphics rendering.

    avater, (edited )
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    it seems the current meta is to hate on starfield at the moment. I would suggest to keep playing and enjoying the game if you do and not to post about it.

    Stahlreck,

    That is always the meta with new and popular AAA games. Especially since PS players are salty MS denied them the game there’s even more salt and a lot of tribalism hehe.

    avater,
    @avater@lemmy.world avatar

    except if the game is Zelda or Elden Ring 😅, which both also ran pretty bad

    Stahlreck,

    Well Nintendo has a shitton of tribalism considering how anti consumer they are in general. Fromsoft just has a lot of good reputation…justifiably so

    CrypticFawn,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    I will wait regardless.

    douglasg14b,
    @douglasg14b@lemmy.world avatar

    Plus you’ll get to see if they add all the post-launch microtransactions like games are starting to do these days.

    Launch to good reviews, and THEN rebalance and force players towards transactions and paid currencies.

    AlphaOmega,

    Plus Plus you can get it on sale.

    SpaceCowboy,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Yup… dodged Diablo 4 by doing this.

    Kinda sad about it though, really enjoyed Diablo II back in the day. Really miss the days when the name Blizzard meant guaranteed quality.

    finthechat,
    @finthechat@kbin.social avatar

    The silver lining here is that now when you see Blizzard, you know to avoid it no matter what.

    Ser_Salty,

    They’ll probably have Creation Club stuff, like in Skyrim and FO4, where they contract modders to create small pieces of content.

    Lols,

    im actively hoping they do

    CrypticFawn,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Yea, it’s maddening.

    AEsheron,

    Even before release I figured I’d wait for a sale. Too many good games just came out I want more, big backlog of Yakuza games I recently started and got totally hooked on. Not interested in helping standardize $70 games, will wait for a sale, and by then there will be a better mod scene too. Less money for a better game, win/win.

    CrypticFawn,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Ah, I see your a r/patientgamers fan too =)

    KTVX94,

    Try Armored Core 6, 100% worth it day one

    GBU_28,

    I can’t disbelieve the rocket skating and I feel lame

    CrypticFawn,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Sadly not my kind of game, but thank you!

    kilgore_trout,

    Armored Core VI and Baldur’s Gate III are two big recently published games that do work quite well. They stand on the shoulders of two respectable companies.

    CrypticFawn,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Yea BG3 is amazing, but I still waited at least a couple of weeks before touching it.

    ObviouslyNotBanana,
    @ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world avatar

    Waiting is what I would do when I had to wait for allowance. I can wait now too!

    GONADS125, (edited )

    I’ve played it a little on Xbox since it’s on gamepass and I haven’t encountered any bugs, other than a single game crash. Is the PC release significantly worse than console?

    Doesn’t feel revolutionary but I’m enjoying it. Created Amos Burton and it’s a pretty fun playthru so far.

    Edit: Okay so let me correct that to replicatible crashes after xbox captures (both screenshots and recordings).

    SnowdenHeroOfOurTime,

    I’m having no issues on PC either.

    Redditiscancer789, (edited )

    I’ve had 0 hard crashes but a few soft crashes since entering the final stretch of the MSQ. Sarah and Walter are stuck “talking” to each other permanently despite Sarah being in my ship and Walter the lodge. And if I try to talk to either of them the game locks up whenever it’s time for the other npc to chime in and I have to reload. I also had a random soft crash where I couldn’t enter the lodge from new Atlantis no matter what I did until I restarted the .exe(I’m thinking it’s related to the convos bug I’m experiencing). Also the weird movement bugs like someone walking away from you during a convo or crew members floating in or through random places in my ship. Also have a flashing texture issue for a few seconds after accessing the inventories in the armory ship habs.

    Outside that I’m getting 50-70 fps with mostly high settings at 1080p.

    Ginkko117, do gaming w Cyberpunk 2077 dev warns players to check their PCs' cooling ahead of 2.0 update
    @Ginkko117@kbin.social avatar

    Holy crap. The only thing I wanted from this update is better optimization, and they instead are warning that things will get worse

    skullgiver,
    @skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

    The game will actually use all of the CPU cores without mods now. The lack of SMT support has been fixed, that sounds like optimisation to me. Currently, the game is struggling to use more than half the available CPU power available on some systems.

    You can still artificially limit the CPU to only half your cores, of course (by setting the task affinity for the game process)

    iforgotmyinstance, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield

    It’s the same trash engine they’ve used for 20 years. To be perfectly honest, they should put it in the ground and build a new one from scratch instead of pushing their Frankenstein engine along.

    BruceTwarzen,

    But how is it getting worse? Or did you always had to load every door you open. I honestly can't remember

    Leeps,

    Yeah you always have. They’ve been screwing modern graphics features to the old dog for years and hoping it’ll continue to work. There’s some serious limitations in it that another engine would be able to work through for a game like this. Seamless planet travel for one, and less abrupt loading.

    Cethin,

    People really have no idea about anything in game development. I agree it should have seemless planet travel, but it is not something that an engine “can just do.” It takes so many complicated systems to make that function. There’s no engine that does it out of the box.

    Basically any engine can do it, but it requires it to be built. The land must be deterministic at all points, it must be able to create chunks accurately for all points (which gets really weird at the poles, but any latitude above 0 because your chunks shouldn’t be square anymore), and they must be able to be streamed in to their correct position seemlessly.

    It is quite complicated, and there’s no reason the engine developed for an arena shooter (Unreal) would be able to handle it any better than any other engine. It just has to be built.

    colonial,
    @colonial@lemmy.world avatar

    There’s a reason Hello Games wrote their own engine for NMS. We all know that it was pretty bad gameplay-wise at launch, but under the hood NMS was (and still is) something of a technical marvel. No loading screens except for a disguised one when jumping between systems is quite impressive.

    Cethin,

    Impressive for sure. They had to choose to not have a lot of things to do it though. They knew what they wanted and did it, which is smart.

    Ser_Salty,

    Also, IIRC, NMS doesn’t have different gravities, right? Been a year or two since I properly played, but I don’t remember ever really jumping higher or being forced to the ground. That’s one of the sacrifices for seamless landing.

    Pat,

    I don't buy this. Plenty of games allow you to adjust gravity on the fly using console commands. All they would have to do if you enter a new planet's atmosphere, is adjust the gravity value.

    Source engine has allowed this forever, changing gravity on the fly. No reason it can't be implemented in other engines.

    TheDarkKnight,

    I guess though I mean it is expected at this stage of game development for this genre to have something like seamless planet travel for a space game. Like it didn’t have to be NMS or Elite Dangerous, they could’ve copied something like how Jedi Fallen Order did it, where basically your ship takes off from the planet, jumps to hyperspace and loads the next one during hyperspace and lets you know when you’re ‘arriving’ (aka when the destination is loaded) and you then take an action and land on the loaded planet. It ends up being the same thing as what Starfield basically does but handles it much more deftly.

    Idk, just saying there’s better ways they could’ve handled it even if the engine couldn’t handle seamless planet travel in a traditional sense.

    kogasa,
    @kogasa@programming.dev avatar

    I have no game dev experience but I have a math and software background. I’m just curious about what “it gets weird at the poles” means. If I wanted to (abstractly) generate tiny square chunks of a large sphere, I would generate them as (proper) squares and then pass them through an explicit diffeomorphism to the associated region of the sphere, relying on the relative smallness to guarantee that the diffeomorphism doesn’t change things too much. From a game dev perspective, what approach do you take that causes issues at the poles?

    BradleyUffner,

    Imagine trying to find the intersections of a line or region as it crosses multiple cells of a non-euclidian “grid” near the poles where an entire axis can flip from one cell to the next.

    kogasa,
    @kogasa@programming.dev avatar

    Are you suggesting using a stereographic projection? That seems like a bad idea. You wouldn’t want your projection to depend on the coordinate system. Am I missing a reason why you wouldn’t use proper, nonsingular spherical coordinates?

    BradleyUffner,

    Games, support libraries, and engines don’t really support spherical coordinate systems. If you don’t want to write everything from scratch, you gotta go Cartesian.

    kogasa,
    @kogasa@programming.dev avatar

    You can still use local Cartesian coordinates.

    BradleyUffner,

    Sure, I guess, but constantly mapping between them gets complicated and adds overhead. Plus, now you are dealing with curves instead of lines when checking for intersections, and that gets far more expensive to compute when you are trying to do thousands if not millions of checks per frame when trying to run at 60 or 120 frames per second.

    I’m not saying it isn’t possible, just that games haven’t traditionally been written that way, so you can’t build on what they have already figured out. That makes it harder to find people who have game dev experience in that kind of math.

    Stahlreck,

    Unreal is older than their engine no? And everyone uses that…so what does this even mean?

    The difference is that Epic barely makes games. They have their Fortnite which they can put in some minor effort to keep the money flowing and otherwise they can focus on the engine. Maybe with MS now being behind Bethesda they can also put in more work into their engine…maybe. We’ll see.

    MeanEYE, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Typical Bugthesda. Am only wondering how did they get this big by only releasing buggy products. I can’t for the life of me remember a single product they have made that wasn’t buggy mess that community fixed for them time and time again without any compensation. Not only that community didn’t get any compensation, Bethesda tried to sell their work and pinch some more money.

    flucksy_bango,

    Imo, despite the bugs and sometimes because of them, they’re really fun games.

    ShittyRedditWasBetter,

    Yet larian constantly gets free passes.

    Any serious bitching about SF seems to me to be nitpicking from folks who were just looking to bitch at Bethesda. It’s a fantastic game with minor issues that are easily overlooked and don’t really affect the experience.

    rudolf_enum,

    Because Larian is relatively small compared to Bethesda and the game exceeded the already high expectations, it’s a AAA D&D 5e game, which is something people were looking for for a long time. Larian deserves it, and they are actively fixing the game anyway. Bethesda has no excuses to be releasing games that have the types of bugs that they do after having such giant successes like Skyrim. They have the money.

    ShittyRedditWasBetter,

    Look I like the game so I’m not trying to say it’s bad in any way but you are just making excuses. Pent up demand doesn’t excuse the bugs. Fuck, they didn’t even need to develop the underlying systems, they already have 5e and the engines.

    rudolf_enum,

    I’m not making excuses, I’m just saying that Larian deserves to get a free pass on this one for releasing a game that exceeded the already high expectations, not for the demand. And personally, I barely encoutered any bugs in a 90 hour long save…

    As for them “already having 5e”, that’s true, but it’s a system that is rather complex and which only gets more complex with higher in-game levels and items which all slightly modify the game - which is easy on tabletop, but I can only imagine what a nightmare it must be to implement this in a computer game. And as far as I know, there aren’t any other computer games that truly implement 5e. Sure, there’s Solasta, but that’s highly modified.

    As for the engine: I really don’t see it as a valid point, as they had to massively change and upgrade it between D:OS2 and BG3 anyway, it’s just too different.

    decenthuman,

    I’m up to about 150 hours in BG3 and I don’t think I’ve seen a single bug.

    cheery_coffee, (edited )

    I use a Mac and I’ve seen plenty, apart from us being forgotten and the release date pushed back silently twice. For me any dirt ground textures never render.

    Larian does a much better job than any other studio, but I paid for the game to play in August at release with my friends, but then they silently dropped the release date and the only viable solution to playing was to pay for GeForce now and stream it.

    I’d only be a little annoyed if they communicated their issues.

    ShittyRedditWasBetter,

    👌👍

    BedbugCutlefish,
    @BedbugCutlefish@lemmy.world avatar

    BG3 was basically unplayable for us for about 2 weeks post 1.0

    But also, we really wanted to only play co-op, and the bugs were mostly online related, which is arguably more forgivable.

    But still, hard crashing or freezing every 15 minutes for one of the three of us sucked, and looking at support forums, wasn’t uncommon either.

    ShittyRedditWasBetter, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield

    I love the bitching and whining over minor shit while BG3 gets a free pass for a massively buggy game 🤣

    filcuk,

    Is poor game optimisation a minor detail?

    ShittyRedditWasBetter,

    Yes, have you even played bg3? It stutters way way more and is plenty enjoyable. They both did a mid tier job of optimization.

    dustyData, do games w Open source community figures out problems with performance in Starfield

    No, Todd Howard doesn’t make mistakes, you just have to buy a more expensive graphics card!

    /s

    Ertebolle,

    Todd Howard doesn't do what Todd Howard does for Todd Howard. Todd Howard does what Todd Howard does because Todd Howard is... Todd Howard.

    killeronthecorner,

    The Todd Howardest.

    He permits you to bathe in the light of his Todd Howardishness.

    NegativeLookBehind,
    @NegativeLookBehind@kbin.social avatar

    It’s actually just pee, but not just any pee, Todd fucking Howard’s pee

    Hasuris,

    Totally unrelated but did you know there’s a promotion deal for AMD’s latest and greatest RX7000 GPUs?

    traveler,

    Quite the coincidence huh /s

    TimLovesTech,
    @TimLovesTech@badatbeing.social avatar

    Best Buy had Starfield free with a 6700XT the other day when I was pricing out a move from Nvidia.

    JJROKCZ,

    Sure but bundling the latest game with a gpu has been common practice by both green and red for a while. When the Egyptian assassins creed was coming out I remember seeing a card next to the GPUs at Microcenter saying you got it free with a qualifying purchase.

    Jaysyn,
    @Jaysyn@kbin.social avatar

    No matter how expensive your Intel Arc GPU was, Starfield won't run on it.

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    The Intel Arcs are really cheap though.

    zurohki,

    Also, Intel are going pretty hard with driver updates and fixes. I’m really hoping they make it, we need more competition.

    The main issue is probably nobody works with Intel to do any testing before launch.

    dojan,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    I took a gamble on the Arc 770 when I built my PC a few months ago, because I honestly am not too keen on the current GPU generation. Like why would I want to pay through my nose for cards that are incredibly power inefficient, with tendencies to catch fire to boot? The Arc series offered decent performance (save for old DX9 games and such, but I already had a GTX970 I could use for those if need be), and shocking amounts of memory, so I gave it a shot and I’m really happy with it.

    I have some weird graphical glitches in FFXIV from time to time. It’s nothing overly annoying, sometimes a box will flicker on the screen for a frame, and sometimes the light fades out briefly. Other than that I’ve had no issues, it’s chugging along really well. My biggest (and only) gripe with the card is the control centre software not allowing you to remap keybinds. That’s pretty dumb.

    All that said, I’m not a hardcore gamer by any means, I don’t buy all the latest AAA games at launch (often not at all, really) and I don’t care much for maxing out my graphics and running at 900FPS.

    Davel23,

    It just works.

    pancakes,
    @pancakes@sh.itjust.works avatar

    That’s false, the mistakes are part of the experience.

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