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CatsPajamas, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

Man I use AI a lot and I’m not even going to dispute that lol. It’s absolutely true.

mirshafie,

I’mnot even opposed to AI in games. I’d love to see more granulated disclosures, but Steam-style disclosure should be the bare minimum.

ameancow,

Yah the more I use AI the more I can detect the absolute bullshit people on both sides spew.

It’s the most amazingly complicated averaging machine we’ve ever invented. It will take the most interesting source materials, the most unique ideas of other people, the most creative materials, and it will find a way to find the safest, most average common qualities between those things. This isn’t a model problem or input problem, it’s fundamental to how generative AI works.

It helps with searching for things online, it helps create guide plans for taking on new tasks like learning some new skill. It’s far better at teaching how to do something like coding than it is left to just code on its own and you copy and paste. It can certainly do that, but you spend so much time correcting it and fixing it that you do far better learning the code yourself and how it works.

Same with art, the people who are using it to best effect are themselves already artists and they use AI to thumbnail compositions or rough layouts, color tests and such, and then just do the work themselves but faster because they already know roughly what direction they’re going.

But using it to write your scripts, to copy/paste code, to generate works of art… it’s literally just giving you other people’s ideas mashed together and unseasoned.

Aurenkin, (edited ) do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

The ethics and utility (or lack thereof) of AI is an important discussion in it’s own right. In terms of Steam though, I really don’t think it’s relevant. Players want the disclosures, that’s it, that’s all that should really matter. Am I missing some nuance here?

Darkcoffee,

They want it? I don’t know, the review score of Black Ops 7 begs to differ.

Personally I’ll give money to a hard working indie dev that may use AI to help in their work spiradically over a big company shoving AI in everything to replace workers.

grte,

Perhaps they meant players want AI disclosures.

Aurenkin,

Oh yes that is what I meant. Edited for clarity.

Darkcoffee,

Thanks, I thought it meant people want AI slop garbage 🤣

WanderingThoughts,

It might make players demand lower prices if some cheap AI slop is used in the game. That’s the thing publishers want to avoid. They want to sell cheap slop for full price and pocket the difference. That’s what it’s about in the end.

Red_October,

I haven’t really seen demands for lower prices on AI slop, but I’ve seen a lot of outright refusal to buy at any price, and returns when the disclosure came later.

CatsPajamas,

I don’t think the epic guy is making an argument for slop, he’s just saying that gen ai is at the point where avoiding using it is as much of a choice as deciding to. Generating the basis for digital art using something like flux then converting that into a 3d asset, with or without help from other AIs, would count, but could be made to look just as nice as something that didn’t use those tools, but took significantly longer. I understand that argument. What it fails to understand is that for the foreseeable future that is not how this tech is going to be used. It will be used by relative amateurs who push out garbage as quickly as possible. Maybe in five years there’s an argument to be made here, but even then I doubt it. People just won’t care about good utilization of AI because they’ll never even notice it. They’ll still hate the slop but that will inevitably become less sloppy. They’ll be able to tell the difference just based on the quality of the other aspects of the game.

borth,

The nuance is that Tim doesn’t give a shit what players want, him and his cronies don’t want it because it’s harder to convince someone to play AI slop when they know it’s AI slop before they even try it 😂

Sl00k,

I posted this in another comment but I think the nuance is really in what did they use the AI for. Are they using Claude code for the programming but did the entire artwork by hand? How many really care about that?

Compared to someone who tried to one shot a slop game with full AI assets and is just trying to make a quick buck.

exu,

Disclose the exact uses and let customers decide

Rooster326, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

What exactly is “Used AI” though?

Most developers are going to have some form of auto complete - AI powered or not.

Is it just assets I assume?

echodot,

Autocomplete isn’t AI. It’s string recognition which predates AI by about 35 years.

T9 predictive texting definitely didn’t contain AI, but was absolutely a thing for a really long time.

Rooster326,

There are 2 versions these days.

One powered by AI that can complete the rest of your function, and regular that is typically only the word you are working on.

froufox,

i think it’s impossible totally exclude ai from a developing process nowadays (you googled something? you use ai. etc.), but not having generated images/assets/texts is realistic

rtxn, (edited )

auto complete

It’s called lexical analysis or lexical tokenization. It existed long before LLMs (as long as high-level programming languages have, since lexical analysis of the source is the first step of compilation), it doesn’t rely on stolen code, and doesn’t consume a small village’s worth of electricity. Superficial parallels with chatbots do not make it AI – it’s a fucking algorithm.

Besides, there is a world of difference between asking a clanker to spit out a Python function that multiplies two matrices, and putting the knock-off Shadowheart from TEMU in a million-dollar game.

spicehoarder,

I assume it refers to assets and mechanics that actively involve AI. If you’re using Copilot to finish your switch case, I don’t think that would count.

fonix232,

And more and more engineers use genAI to generate code. Hell, even I do, because it's superb at getting the boilerplate ready from standard definitions, allowing me to focus on the important bits.

LLMs are also pretty great at extrapolating a good working document from basic requirements.

They're really just a quite knowledgeable but inexperienced intern, and any software engineer that refuses to utilise them to some extent will be left behind - just like those who refused to move to IDEs with syntax highlighting, autocomplete and other helper tools.

_cryptagion,
@_cryptagion@anarchist.nexus avatar

you’re gonna have the vim users grabbing their pitchforks if you don’t watch it.

RampantParanoia2365, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

…what calls? No one is calling for this. One dude said it was unnecessary. That’s not a call, it’s an opinion. He’s not out picketing for the end of fucking AI labels.

_cryptagion,
@_cryptagion@anarchist.nexus avatar

whether he is or isn’t, they saw a chance to create a huge amount of good PR for Valve while doing and spending absolutely nothing. I mean, look at the amount of upvotes this post has. all they had to do is take what appears to be a principled stand.

AnarchistArtificer, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

Corporations are not our friends, even when they seem friendly, like Steam. However, they can be useful allies, so I’m glad to see this response from Steam.

minorkeys, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

Consumers have a right to be informed of information relevant to them making purchasing decisions. AI is obviously relevant to the consumer and should be disclosed.

who, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

“Calls to scrap” the disclosures make it sound like a societal movement, when in fact it’s just two people with obvious bias: Tim Sweeney and some guy who promotes Tim Sweeney’s products on youtube.

I don’t give a flying frog what they think. When I allow someone to sell me something, I like to know what’s in it.

twinnie, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

They don’t need to court developers, they need to court consumers. The games will be sold wherever people are buying.

rtxn,

consumers

This is very much a pet peeve, but be careful about how you use “consumer” versus “customer”. They each imply completely different power dynamics.

warm,

It's very much consumer these days, people buy literally anything marketed to them.

rtxn,

Then you should hold yourself to higher standards than “people”.

warm, (edited )

I like to think I hold myself to a higher standard or at least just a standard. General consumption, I'm not sure, but for video games, people standards have dropped significantly, the masses accept a lot of bullshit and even defend it.

moonshadow,

This guy thinks he’s a “customer”

rtxn, (edited )

Maybe some people, who are an ocean away from me, have been gaslit into thinking they can’t be anything other than consumers. I know it can be difficult to grasp the concept, but you can refuse a service if the terms are unacceptable. It is possible to go into a transaction with open eyes and full knowledge of the rights granted to you by law and responsibilities demanded of you by the contract.

That’s why I say “customer”. It’s a reminder to myself that I should demand equitable treatment, even if the chances are slim unless the courts get involved. You don’t have to jump into the meat grinder willingly.

SolSerkonos,

I just didn’t realize the distinction. TIL, thanks.

CosmoNova,

Consumers have already decided mobile gambling slop is the most successful investment in the gaming industry. I don‘t trust consumers to know what‘s best for them.

Katana314, (edited )

I think the studies showing how certain minds can be targeted and manipulated by dark gambling patterns made me think differently about gambling. I’m less likely to blame the victims now - in many ways it can be difficult or near-impossible for them to control those impulses. I’d at least like lootbox gambling slop to be regulated the same as casinos.

Look how popular fantasy sports is now. It’s basically just the casino industry seeking out new avenues to cheat the definition of “Playing odds to win cash”.

Carighan,
@Carighan@piefed.world avatar

Yeah that shit is like selling heroine specifically to vulnerable people in depressing phases of their life. But wth gambling ads and dark patterns in video games we somehow accept it. 😕

oxysis,

Well yeah gambling is addicting, the mobile slop companies know that so they try to get people addicted to it. It’s really sad what’s happened to the mobile gaming space, as it’s so heavily dominated by gambling. Hell the entire world is being run over by gambling companies now. It’s a major problem that will have to be addressed at some point soon.

FlashMobOfOne, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

I heard the new Game of Thrones game is using LLM’s to generate some of its content. Pisses me off.

nutsack,

lots of big companies are using them to generate code. i agree with what I think is your point of view, but where do you draw the line

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t buy a lot of the big company games anyway, but if this becomes commonplace, what’ll happen is I’ll buy my big-company games second-hand so the benefit to the perpetrators is lessened.

Catoblepas,

If that’s true that takes my interest in it into the negatives. ASOIAF has about a million moving parts and very distinct characters with complex backstories, there’s not even a small chance an LLM could come close to imitating that.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

It’s just fan speculation at this point, but yeah. I’ll be thinking about it before I buy, if I do.

witty_username, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

Counters calls to scrap disclosures… I don’t follow

nokturne213,

Some douche nozzle from epic games said Stream needs to scrap their AI disclosure requirements because soon all games will be AI.

ETA Article link: rockpapershotgun.com/epic-ceo-wants-valve-and-ste…

Darkcoffee,

It also confirms what we already thought: these f***bucket big studios already think of gaming as a cheap product to generate money, not as a piece of art and enjoyment in its own right.

lefixxx,

Yeah it was hard to parse for me too

“valve ignores requests to remove ai disclosures”

Darkcoffee, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

It’s all they had to say for me to continue ignoring Epic.

Hadriscus, do games w Valve dev counters calls to scrap Steam AI disclosures, says it's a "technology relying on cultural laundering, IP infringement, and slopification"

Based Ayi Sanchez

jjjalljs, do games w Elden Ring's most comprehensive and faithful fan-made overhaul launches its biggest update yet, with full multiplayer

Looks interesting. I didn’t really like convergence when I tried it, and the randomizer wasn’t as fun as I hoped for me.

It says it’s easy to install too, even on Linux. Anyone done so?

domi,
@domi@lemmy.secnd.me avatar

They have a simple .sh script you can run. Works fine on native Steam, couldn’t get it to run with Flatpak Steam.

Baggie,

Yeah installed it a few days ago, super easy. It comes with a Linux/steam deck install guide.

jjjalljs,

No luck for me:


<span style="color:#323232;">/home/myuser/Games/er_reforged/ERRv2.0.1.1-541-2-0-1-1-1762909215/ERRv2.0.1.1/internals/modengine/bin/me3: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.39' not found (required by /home/myuser/Games/er_reforged/ERRv2.0.1.1-541-2-0-1-1-1762909215/ERRv2.0.1.1/internals/modengine/bin/me3)
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[RED]Error:[/]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">me3 failed to launch due to error code 1: Unknown
</span>

Not finding a lot of hits online for this problem. I think updating glibc can be kind of dicey?

Baggie,

Might be permissions of whichever environment you’re running the sh in? Or potentially it wants that exact version, I’m only mildly competent at Linux at this point.

MourningDove, do games w Elden Ring's most comprehensive and faithful fan-made overhaul launches its biggest update yet, with full multiplayer

This is the only downside of console gaming. I’d love to be able to check this out. Not spending two grand on a gaming PV only to either fight with windows or take a college course on how to use Linux.

witness_me,

Without accounting for the cost of a PC being so crazy, you really don’t need a college course to install and run Linux, or to setup steam on it.

Give it a shot on an old/cheap device someday. It’s come a very long way in usability.

MourningDove,

Might just do that

lath, do games w Ambitious new Crusader Kings 3 expansion All Under Heaven is a win for Paradox, right when it needed it most

Disagree, but then again I’m not the intended audience.

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