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ICastFist, do games w Unity adding a fee for devs for each time a game is installed, after certain thresholds
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

For Unity Personal and Unity Plus users, the thresholds are $200,000 in revenue a year and 200,000 lifetime installs.

The fees also vary, with Unity Personal developers having to pay the most for every install above the threshold ($0.20)

So, if you get 200k lifetime installs but don’t get the 200k revenue a year, you don’t have to pay it?

Existing games built on Unity will also be hit with Runtime Fees if they meet the thresholds starting January 1.

OOOHOOOOO BOY, now, that’s going to hurt a fair amount of people!

Also, what about web play? I guess that’ll only count towards revenue, but not towards downloads?

wax,

If their licencing agreement permits retroactive changes like this, that is reason enough to gtfo

ICastFist,
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

I sure feel glad to never have gotten into developing with it. When I saw that a blank project generated a ~231MB executable back in 4.1 or so, I simply ditched it.

Licenses that allow retroactive changes are terrible for the end user, fuck up the company’s image and might give a significant boost to competition. Hasbro trying to pull that shit with DnD earlier this year comes to mind.

FaeDrifter,

Our terms of service provide that Unity may add or change fees at any time. We are providing more than three months advance notice of the Unity Runtime Fee before it goes into effect. Consent is not required for additional fees to take effect, and the only version of our terms is the most current version; you simply cannot choose to comply with a prior version. Further, our terms are governed by California law, notwithstanding the country of the customer.

Yup lol.

What’s funny and sad is that about 3 years ago on r/godot, I had an argument with a Unity fanboy over this exact thing. He was demanding someone give him a reason that Godot should exist, when, in his humble opinion, Unity did everything and did it better.

My take was that you don’t actually own your Unity-made game. You might own the assets and trademark, but as long as you’re licensing the engine, you are subject to the whims of Unity.

Of course that was theoretical, until today.

Syndic,

I’m pretty sure that even if the license agreement does have such language that it won’t uphold in court. And there are enough big companies using Unity for this to go to court if they try to come to collect.

I mean seriously, if that would be legally possible, nothing would prevent them from uping the charge to $10, $20 or even $100 per installation, applied retroactively.

trustnoone,

I think they have the web play question in their FAQ somewhere and it does include as a download. There’s no real way to know how their telemetry is calculating this though.

trustnoone, (edited )

Q: Does this affect WebGL and streamed games?

A: Games on all platforms are eligible for the fee but will only incur costs if both the install and revenue thresholds are crossed. Installs - which involves initialization of the runtime on a client device - are counted on all platforms the same way (WebGL and streaming included

…unity.com/…/unity-plan-pricing-and-packaging-upd…

ICastFist,
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

Wow… I expect that WebGL telemetry to be less reliable than from an installed app. “No cookies found, guess this is a brand new download, chaps!”

Elderos, (edited ) do games w Unity's self-combustion engine

Finally an article that goes beyond the drama and misinformation. It is not just about the new fee, which realistically is nothing compared to what you would owe epic for the same level of success.

What sucks is the shadiness and the deceptive nature of it all. I am sure the executives felt really clever and thought it would almost fly under the radar After all, they managed to spin this as not-a-royalty after years of boasting that Unity wouldn’t have any.

The new changes are essentially this :

You’re forced into going with the pro or enterprise license past a certain revenue (which was sort of a thing already).

You’re forced into serving Unity ads, or else you get charged a some royalties, which realistically should still be less than what UE charges.

You’re forced retroactively into it, as they deleted the old TOS behind the scenes.

They’re definitely not being upfront about their intentions, and due to their complete aversion to mentionning the word royalties, they managed to deceptively make up a lie that sounds worst than the actual truth. Even though this is a move targetted at multi-mullion dollars productions, actual students and hobbyist are now worried about being charged per user downloads, which is not happening.

It is sad to see, Unity went from being owned and operated by people who truely cared. I worked there for a number of years and most leaders and employees truely believed they were a force of good in this otherwise shitty world. It is crazy how much the company changed in just a number of years/months. It sucks, and whoever ended up in charge robbed both the employees and the users of something great.

John was a smooth talker, and even as the company was turning corporate and seemingly stepping on old values, he was very good at making sensible arguments and justifying the company transformation. I can’t help but feel deceived now. Ultimately I left the company because I disagreed with so many decisions. Virtually my entire backlog was stuff I disagreed with and I just couldn’t justify waking up in the morning. We’re long past the “Users first” slogan which made Unity so popular with indies.

raptir,

You’re leaving out what’s really the key problem with the new pricing, which is that it is per install. It’s an unlikely but very possible scenario that a developer could lose money (inexpensive game with an abnormally high number of reinstalls).

The pricing incentivizes “live service” or ad-supported games that constantly extract revenue from users rather than “buy once” games.

EssentialCoffee,

Also, what’s stopping Unity from running bot farms that just install games over and over again to generate revenue for themselves from developers.

JBloodthorn,
@JBloodthorn@kbin.social avatar

Their pricing is based on "trust me bro" currently, since they don't have details on how it will work. They say it was installed i number of times, therefore you owe them j. No need for a bot farm when they can just lie, since we have no way to verify their numbers.

mushroom,

Because then the devs go under and you can’t milk them for more money over time?

I’m not defending them, but why the fuck would they want to shut down developers? That just doesn’t make sense.

JungleJim,

Companies often do stupid shady things for short term profits at the cost of long term stability.

hitmyspot,

They only need to do so much so the developers don’t go under, but are forced to pay more. It’s a spectrum not a binary.

Amir,
@Amir@lemmy.ml avatar

Have you not been keeping track of capitalism? This is precisely what happens

Elderos, (edited )

Fair enough, this is an atrocious billing system, but I I firmly believe that this is simply a gimmick to get around charging royalties without calling it so. Maybe I am biased, but the people working at Unity are not monsters, and I believe the employee who posted publicly and stated that the people implementing this system made sure that it would be under-reporting installs is speaking the truth. I think there is this misconception that Unity is simply gonna fire an event for every install and charge you directly for each report, but there is no way that this will be this simple. In all likelihood they will use this to keep a list of the popular games, and the actual fee will be based on heuristics like estimated sales and whatever other analytics and ads generated by the game clients. Sure it is a “trust me bro” system, yes it’s bad, yes it could be abused, I think it is fair to call it out and ask for a more transparent system, but deep down I just don’t believe that Unity is evil and did this to abuse the developers.

In all likelihood THEY will be the one forced to under charge, and really they’re doing this to force you into their ecosystem so it is likely that they will reach out the studios individually before incurring the fees. The whole thing is worded in a way that past a certain level of success, they will charge you royalties unless you play ball with them and serve ads and buy in other services. I would not blame anyone for calling it scummy, but I think it is important to understand their motives, they want to force your hand to use whatever they’re selling. The installation fee is just a smoke screen, they have nothing to gain bankrupting studios by making up numbers. Of course, this is just my own take. I think I have a fairly good understanding of how they operate, but I could be wrong.

derin, do games w Unity's self-combustion engine
@derin@lemmy.beru.co avatar

Unity is mad that mobile game companies acquire millions of users in a few months as they transition from soft launch to global, and then sell their companies for millions - if not billions - of dollars.

They want a cut of that pie, and in true unity fashion, they chose the most inept way of doing that.

If you have developers of games like Cult of the Lamb feeling scared, you did it wrong.

You protect your indies, you protect the people making art with your product. The people who invested 3 million and are making billions in the mobile ads game? That’s your target.

How they could be this inept is astounding…

Also, I’ll echo the other commenter’s statement in saying the article is very well written. They just weren’t able to really answer the “why” portion very well. John Riccitiello wasn’t wrong when he said this plan wasn’t designed to affect 90% of their customers - but it also doesn’t mention how that remaining 10% makes more than that 90% combined.

Ffs Unity, get your shit together…

lustrum,

Companies always do this shit, penny wise, pound foolish.

altima_neo,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

They’re wet go, John Riccitiello! That’s why I recognized that assholes smirk in the thumbnail. He used to be president of EA. No surprise he’s brought those scummy tactics over to unity.

nimmo, do games w Unity's self-combustion engine
@nimmo@lem.nimmog.uk avatar

Magic, thanks for posting this. I’ve been trying to find a good and clear explanation of that been going on since I started reading about people getting upset with unity during the week.

Dadifer, do games w Unity's self-combustion engine

An incredibly well-written article.

NOT_RICK, do games w Insomniac: If anything, it's got better since we were bought by PlayStation
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, would they ever say otherwise?

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

PR Guy: I dunno, boys, the headline 'Our boss is okay, you'd probably be fine sticking indie and not being owned at all' doesn't look... good. I'm thinking maybe we just... completely reverse that, yeah that's more like it."

Muffi, do games w Unity adding a fee for devs for each time a game is installed, after certain thresholds

Well, guess it’s time to learn Godot.

ICastFist,
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

As someone who’s using Godot and giting gud at it, I hope you enjoy it. For programming, you can go with either its GDScript (python) or C#, so Unity veterans shouldn’t have much trouble.

Lemminary,

That’s great to hear. C# has grown on me so much lately! It’s like TypeScript but not sucky.

vitriolix,
@vitriolix@lemmy.world avatar

GDScript (python)

I think GFScript is it’s own language, but looks definitely inspired by Python

Murais, do games w Unity adding a fee for devs for each time a game is installed, after certain thresholds
@Murais@lemmy.one avatar

Oh hey, look.

The former CEO of EA made a greedy, short-sighted decision to fuck over his entire customer base.

I am shocked, friends.

SHOCKED.

obinice,
@obinice@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not that guy that looked like a supervillain every time he got up on stage at E3, is it?

Gestrid, (edited )

Not sure about that, but he is a boss character in not one but two Suda51 games. (Suda51 was apparently screwed over by the guy who was, at the time EA’s CEO.)

Murais,
@Murais@lemmy.one avatar
Skyhighatrist,

Well… not that shocked.

CosmicCleric,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

Way to ruin a comedic moment.

runner_g,
CosmicCleric,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

I get the reference, I love that show, even though Bender may not approve, because I’m just a meat bag.

WuTang, do games w Unity adding a fee for devs for each time a game is installed, after certain thresholds
@WuTang@lemmy.ninja avatar

rule 1: get user by giving free candy rule 2: let’s them build their product, workflow on your tools rule 3: harvest.

Beliriel, (edited )

Rule 4: get fucked by better and cheaper products (Unreal/Godot)
Rule 5: make an obituary presentation on what went wrong (hint: it’s always management)

WuTang,
@WuTang@lemmy.ninja avatar

Unreal engine will probably do the same shit than Unity, Unreal engine might be opensource (not FOSS), I think there’s the same clauses about production royalties.

Even if Godot wins, there’s a cost to move.

Beliriel,

I think Godot will not win simply because Unreal is so much better for 3D games what most comercial games use. I think Godot will become the indie favourite for 2D. Where it goes from there I’m not sure. Is the revenue sharing not enough to carry the game engine? Unreal/Epic is a special case. But is Unity mismanaged so hard? It still has huge market share.

radiant_bloom,

Rule 6: Unreal does the same thing, everyone switches to Godot 😂

Hoomod,

It is management

CEO or whatever used to be head of EA

nogooduser, do games w Unity adding a fee for devs for each time a game is installed, after certain thresholds

Existing games built on Unity will also be hit with Runtime Fees if they meet the thresholds starting January 1.

How can you have a deal in place and just say “you’re giving me more money” and think that that’s ok?

I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further. - Vader

TwilightVulpine,

Tech companies badly need to get their shit kicked in to stop with this "I have the right to change the terms unilaterally anytime"

Buddahriffic,

This might actually lead to that, depending on what kind of lawsuits arise from this change. Which could mean there will be pressure from others who don’t have a stake in the “unity install fee” game but do have one in the “wants to change terms at a whim” game.

Or maybe it will threaten the “by continuing to use this, you agree” clause instead and open up a path to continue using a previous license agreement if you don’t like a new one.

AeroLemming,

I mean, that can’t be legal, right?

AndreasChris,

I don’t believe that is legal. That’s just absolutely ridiculous.

Syndic, (edited )

I can’t imagine that it is.

If that’s the case then they could simply up the charge next year to $10 to get even more money for doing absolutely nothing. And then to $20 the next year and so forth. There’s no sane court anywhere in the world who would say “Yeah, that sounds reasonable!” and even the less sane ones would think that’s bonkers.

Psaldorn,
@Psaldorn@lemmy.world avatar

Jokes on them, I never finished a unity project.

Tolstoshev,

It used to be illegal. Part of anti-trust was forcing IP owners to license their technology to everyone at a reasonable price. That means that reddit’s API price gouging would also have been illegal and tesla and apple would have had to license their FSD and OS to other hardware manufacturers. This ability to control other companies through abusive pricing and licensing lock-in is classic monopoly violation that the govt has stopped policing.

sirdorius, (edited ) do games w Unity adding a fee for devs for each time a game is installed, after certain thresholds

So this will apply to games that have already been distributed on stores as well? How the fuck is such a change in the terms even legal?

I guess this will mostly impact F2P mobile devs since they will lose most money from installs. The good news is that Godot is more than capable for those types of games.

HawlSera,

I not only expect lawsuits out the ass, but tech lobbyists are likely going to fight against it since basically every game uses Unity now.

whoami,
@whoami@lemmy.world avatar

“F2P game developers are the biggest fucking idiots” - Unity CEO, c. 2022: theverge.com/…/unity-ceo-john-riccitiello-apology…

steakmeout,
MossBear, do games w Unity adding a fee for devs for each time a game is installed, after certain thresholds

Godot.

Jordan117,

Context: godotengine.org

leprasmurf,

Some more context: Godot established the “Godot Development Fund” to accept donations directly (lemmy.ml/post/4815592).

colonial,
@colonial@lemmy.world avatar

Every other engine is smelling blood in the water it seems

SpaceNoodle,

Their tagline is on point.

HeyThisIsntTheYMCA,
@HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world avatar

I only code in Guffman

dublet,

Godot

I’m still waiting.

Cossty,
Raz, do games w Unity adding a fee for devs for each time a game is installed, after certain thresholds

Wanna bet he secretly has a bunch of Epic Games stock?

Lemminary, (edited )

They did sell their thousands of shares before this shit so I wouldn’t be surprised

Raz,

Looks like they know very well what they are doing. This seems illegal, but we all know they get away with it.

AWittyUsername, do games w Unity adding a fee for devs for each time a game is installed, after certain thresholds

We chose this because each time a game is downloaded, the Unity Runtime is also installed," the company explained in adding the fee.

Ok and??

grayman,

Every copy costs them money. Don’t you know how digital copies work?!

Touching_Grass,

Guys they’re artists. They deserve to be paid every time you play any game. You wouldn’t steal a car

Natanael,

starts copies of GTA on a thousand computers

derpgon,

Every copy has to be hand made by routing bits around the copper highway ar ludicrous speeds, and rearrange them manually to form what is called “a game”.

sebinspace,

Like… wow, that’s what the engine is! Fucken doinks.

Chickenstalker,

Firstly, how dare you! Secondly, unity is made from a limited resource, which is whale balls. For every download of unity, a whale loses one of its balls. Think of the whales!

2ncs,

So if Microsoft published a Unity developed game on Windows, Microsoft could easily charge a $0.20 free to the unity team for installing the Unity Runtime on their OS.

Not being completely serious there. Honestly thought, did the CEO not realize if they start doing this, what’s to stop another company from doing that to them. Things like mp3, where developers need to pay a license for, could then be charged in a similar fashion for each install.

Whirlybird, do games w EU watchdog seeking feedback on modified Microsoft-Activision deal

Doesn’t really make any sense at all to investigate it again since nothing at all changed for the EU, and the streaming changes offered for the UK make it more competition friendly.

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