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Anticorp, do games w VR still makes 40-70% of players want to throw up, and that's a huge problem for the companies behind it

It’s very simple. The device needs to maintain 90fps at 90hz minimum. Anything below that can cause nausea. We’ve known this since at least 2017.

Wahots,

I’d go so far as to say 144hz at 144 fps should be the bare minimum. And that’s not even factoring in stuff like screen door effect, latency issues, etc etc. All of which play a part.

Anticorp,

The Quest 2 has pretty much eliminated the screen door. I’ve never had any issues at 90/90, but sensitive people might. The higher the better really. I hate saying it, because I despise Facebook, but the headset is actually really good, especially if you use it through Steam Link. Comparable headsets are 2-3x as much money.

JokeDeity,

I legitimately never thought twice about them because I thought you could only play shitty Facebook games with them, but you can play real games on Steam? How are the controllers?

greavous,

They are great. I have a mate who has an index and regularly has issues with controller config playing games on steam. I’ve had none with my quest 2.

JokeDeity,

Good to know. They don’t have cameras you put around the room right? How is the tracking? I worry about it losing tracking a lot when the controllers aren’t in view.

greavous,

No base stations required. If you hold your controller behind your back you will lose tracking as it uses cameras on the headset to track it. Hasn’t really been an issue for me though.

JokeDeity,

Okay, I had to ask because my only experience is with the Vive and I was impressed with it’s tracking via the stations.

Anticorp,

I had the original HTC Vive before my wife gave me the Oculus Quest 2 for Christmas last year. The Quest 2 is good enough that I gave the Vive to my son and just kept the Quest 2. The resolution is much clearer on the Quest, and the tracking is very good too.

One of the very cool things about the Quest 2 is that it’s a stand-alone device, so for native games you can play it in your kitchen, or backyard, or anywhere with a lot of room. There are several titles that have been ported to the Oculus store for the Quest, and they’re on-par with their Steam equivalents.

Of course the performance won’t be as good as a full-blown gaming computer, so I usually play through the Steam Link, using a 35 foot USB-C cable. Another benefit to the cable is that it charges the headset while you’re playing, so you aren’t limited to 2 hour sessions. I’ve probably played 100 hours in Elite Dangerous using the Steam Link and it’s beautiful, smooth, and near flawless. My WiFi router is pretty far from my game room, so I haven’t had much luck with the WiFi Steam Link, but some people seem to have had success with it based on what I’ve read on a bunch of Reddit posts.

When I got the Quest 2 you could still use your Oculus account to log in, but now they require that you merge it with your Facebook account, which is really annoying. That’s the only thing I dislike about the Quest, that you need a Facebook account. But you can turn off sync, and it doesn’t post to Facebook, or share your gaming history, or anything like that. I haven’t launched or even looked at the metaverse, because it doesn’t interest me at all, and it’s decoupled enough that it’s pretty much a non-issue once you get over the fact that a Facebook account is required. You’d have to spend another $500-$1000 for an equivalent device that doesn’t require Facebook.

greavous,

They got rid of the Facebook account requirement. You now can use a meta account instead. So kinda better as I defacebooked myself and the meta account is only used on the quest

Anticorp,

It uses inside-out tracking, but I haven’t had any issues with it. If you move your hand out of view, it knows that you did so and will just make it disappear and reappear when it moves back into view.

Anticorp,

Yup! You can use the Steam Link and play all of the Steam VR games you already own. You can either use a long USB-C cable, or WiFi 6.

JokeDeity,

Very cool!

LordOfTheChia,

For the Quest 2, the ideal setup is a dedicated (but inexpensive) router for wireless communicating with the headset. Last I looked a few specific models of semi-generic $50 routers were tested by the community.

Then you can either run your PC lan connection through that router or if you have a second Ethernet connection, use one just for that router.

guacupado,

Huh… This is pretty clever…

Kolanaki, (edited )
!deleted6508 avatar

I mean… it’s also the fact you can move in the game while sitting down or standing still IRL. The framerate isn’t going to affect that inner ear/brain disconnect that causes motion sickness. Get a viable, and affordable, omnidirectional treadmill out and that would be a big help.

LordOfTheChia,

Frametimes is the specific measure.

<11.1ms for 90Hz or <8.33ms for 120Hz

If the game, experience, or whatever breaches that minimum frame time frequently, then you can experience nausea just from moving your head around.

It does require some sacrifices like turning shadows down a notch or two in some game engines and choosing additional visual effects carefully. Some visual effects require additional computation passes and can add the the frame time.

A low latency CPU (like the AMD 3D cache CPUs) or a normal mid to high end CPU with fast memory with good timings helps quite a bit.

The GPU should be capable of pushing the pixels and shading for the target resolution. Even with a 6900xt I’ve been able to comfortably push over 4500x3000 per eye rendering (enough to get a nice anti-aliasimg effect on my Pimax 8kX at the “normal” 150 degree H.FoV) in most games.

Surprisingly, fidelity FX can help as well (the non-temporal version).

wrinkletip,

It’s not that simple though. At any frame rate or frame time, you can still experience the movement disconnect. Simulating a roller coaster while sitting still will make the brain think you are moving while all other sensory perception says no, and you get nauseous.

Same as sea, air and car sickness, and those all have pretty great FPS.

Anticorp,

That’s true, but when it drops below 90/90 you’re a lot more likely to experience motion sickness from something as simple as looking around. With the higher frame rates, the motion is perceived more naturally by the brain, and you’re a lot less likely to become nauseous. For the games more intense movement, where your perceived movement is disconnected from your actual movement, you can get used to it eventually, as long as your system is pushing enough information to your eyes. I have a top of the line gaming computer and I could only play very short sessions of Elite Dangerous when I started, since the perception is that you’re in a spaceship that’s flipping and spinning all around. After several short sessions, my brain started adapting until I could play for hours on end.

Arystique, do gaming w Baldur's Gate 3's latest patch has introduced a 'very frustrating, borderline unplayable' glitch that makes companions dump their inventories on you
@Arystique@beehaw.org avatar

So this is how it feels

Lydia i am so sorry

Kaldo, (edited ) do gaming w Baldur's Gate 3's latest patch has introduced a 'very frustrating, borderline unplayable' glitch that makes companions dump their inventories on you
@Kaldo@kbin.social avatar

I'm still holding our hope they just patch in a shared inventory system slike to the one in wrath of the righteous (or we get a mod for it). Inventory managment has always been a huge chore in DOS1 and 2 and something that would actively hamper my enjoyment of these games.

Sanctus, do games w Blizzard bans 250,000 Overwatch 2 cheaters, says its AI that analyses voice chat is warning naughty players and can often 'correct negative behaviour immediately'
@Sanctus@lemmy.world avatar

So is every game going to have AI in the chats listening for “Naughties”? Because thats just spyware.

Wayren, do games w CCP knows Dust 514 should never have been a console exclusive: 'If we had been on PC the whole time the game would literally be alive'

Really? I thought Dust was kind of, well, bad. Just my experience though.

DontMakeMoreBabies,

Eve players would ABSOLUTELY have still played it if it was on the PC even if it was medicore.

Speaking of, I really wish someone would try something like Eve 2.0...

ChaoticEntropy, (edited ) do games w CCP knows Dust 514 should never have been a console exclusive: 'If we had been on PC the whole time the game would literally be alive'
@ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk avatar

Well no shit… maybe if your offshoot game was on the same platform as your game… where your playerbase is.

AmidFuror, do gaming w VR still makes 40-70% of players want to throw up, and that's a huge problem for the companies behind it

I only got a VR setup this year. I find I am quite susceptible to the motion sickness issues. However, if the game has a good comfort rating and options, I don't have any problems. For example, I need "instant snap" for turning with the control stick and "teleport" or "blink" for movement.

Those options work well for some kinds of games but I will probably never play ones where you need to "move" smoothly without actually moving. Perhaps that is preventing me from adapting to it, but I still say "no thanks" to motion sickness.

echo64, do games w CCP knows Dust 514 should never have been a console exclusive: 'If we had been on PC the whole time the game would literally be alive'

This is a good example of how companies end up making bad decisions.

Could the failure have been because what we made wasn’t very good? No no, must be some other reason.

Zehzin, do games w CCP knows Dust 514 should never have been a console exclusive: 'If we had been on PC the whole time the game would literally be alive'
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

I played that thing and I sincerely doubt that, unless it was made into completely different game that isn’t ass

n3m37h, do games w CCP knows Dust 514 should never have been a console exclusive: 'If we had been on PC the whole time the game would literally be alive'

I’d prolly still be playing EVE is Dust 514 was on PC. Heres to hoping Vanguard is good

Lightsong, do games w Blizzard bans 250,000 Overwatch 2 cheaters, says its AI that analyses voice chat is warning naughty players and can often 'correct negative behaviour immediately'

People play Overwatch 2?

BlinkerFluid,
@BlinkerFluid@lemmy.one avatar

Scroll under Team Fortress 2 a few spaces.

There it is… right where it belongs.

priapus,

Between Battle.net and consoles, overwatch unfortunately probably has more players than TF2.

tdawg,
@tdawg@lemmy.world avatar

Didn’t you read the article. All of them got banned

regbin_,

Tons of people do. It’s my go to multiplayer FPS since it came out.

ampersandrew, do gaming w This has been the best summer for RPGs and I want to live in it forever
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

It's been a damn good summer for fighting games too, and arguably the best year for all of video games. I've still got probably 10 hours to go in Baldur's Gate 3, haven't touched Starfield or Phantom Liberty yet, and I'm also looking forward to Broken Roads. There's not enough time to get to all this good stuff, and there's still Wargroove 2 coming in a week and a half.

Swim,

broken roads looks pretty cool, thanks for the mention

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

It was also mentioned in the article, but I heard about it from SkillUp.

Thavron,
@Thavron@lemmy.ca avatar

and arguably the best year for all of video games.

That is a very bold claim.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

1998, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2013, 2015, 2017...I think 2023's got all of them beat.

BigBananaDealer,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

2010 is my favorite. the beatles rock band and rock band 3 came out the same year. one being a nearly perfect game and the other being my most played game ever by far (unofficially, 360 does not track days played)

Ashtear, (edited )

1998 was such a monster year because it spawned so many big franchises, including two that were arguably the genesis of e-sports. It’ll be a while before we know how 2023 measures up in that regard, although there’s not much new stuff this year that might have legs. Hi-Fi Rush and Starfield, maybe?

I’ve been thinking for a while that this is probably already the best year since 1998 though.

BluesF, do gaming w Squealing pigs, disgruntled bison, and the most beautiful frying meat I've ever seen: Dragon's Dogma 2 is just as wonderfully weird as the first game

My excitement about this game continues to grow… maybe it’s time for a replay of 1.

nanoUFO, do games w Blizzard bans 250,000 Overwatch 2 cheaters, says its AI that analyses voice chat is warning naughty players and can often 'correct negative behaviour immediately'
@nanoUFO@sh.itjust.works avatar

I remember when community servers existed and these problems were almost non existent without spying.

InEnduringGrowStrong,
@InEnduringGrowStrong@sh.itjust.works avatar

Dedicated servers ran by the community with a server browser to find games/servers.
Really the golden age of multiplayer.

Found a nice server that runs well, chill and well moderated? add it to your favorites.
No lobbies, well… technically the whole server was the lobby, kinda.
No progression unlocks bullshit.
No ranking. No waiting on matchmaking. Just play.
No AI spying on every thing you say or do.
Maybe a “SIR this is a Christian server, so swearing will not be tolerated” or other warning of some kind now and then, even on games like Counterstrike.

Eventually, you’d get to know people, kinda like how you might start recognizing names here on lemmy.
You’d make friends, rivals, etc.
I miss those times.

I got into Titanfall 2 pretty late (like last month) and waiting 10 minutes to even get into a lobby is just annoying.
As opposed to joining a server and playing non stop on there.

It’s even less costs to the publisher than to host and scale on their own because the community is running your servers.
But then they can’t pull the plug to force people on a new release.
They can’t spy on as much shit.
They can’t sell as much private data.
It’s probably easier to sell microtransactions this way too.

In a way… gaming was decentralized. I miss it.

Bluescluestoothpaste,

Yeah but there were admins spying what you did and banning you. Quite frankly i have much greater trust in AI admins than human admins. Not that some human admins aren’t great, but why risk it? Same as self driven cars, as soon as they’re ready im ready to never drive again.

Vampiric_Luma,
@Vampiric_Luma@lemmy.ca avatar

What is stopping AI from showing bias here? The humans tailor the AI, so there will inherently always be that risk without transparency.

Bluescluestoothpaste,

Oh sure there’s definitely bias in AI, same as selfdriving cars. They make mistakes, but make far fewer than humans.

Vampiric_Luma,
@Vampiric_Luma@lemmy.ca avatar

Sure, but the mistakes aren’t the main issue, it’s that AI is just a tool that by extention can be abused by the humans in control. You have no idea what rules they give it and what false positives result from it.

My primary concern here is that it’s Blizzard, whom love to gargle honey for China and is all for banning players that speak against them, is in charge of this AI.

Blizzard’s previously talked about using AI to verify reports of disruptive voice chat, which is now running in most regions, though not globally. The developer says it has seen this technology “correct negative behavior immediately, with many players improving their disruptive behavior after their first warning.”

Great, they can auto-ban players like Ng Wai Chung, I guess. For whatever they subjectively deem ‘harmful’. There’s also the looming idea that a friend can wander in my room, say something dumb, and now I’m closer to a ban because of an unrelated choice I made outside the game.

And we definitely trust Blizard to be good with all the audio data they get to harvest. That won’t be abused later, right?

Bluescluestoothpaste,

I mean that’s a general argument against technology. Yes, more technology means more ruthlessly efficient abuse, but ultimately you think technology is better in the long run or not. Either way it is inevitable. Maybe in the EU they will ban those abuses, in China they won’t, and US will find some weird compromise between the two.

nanoUFO,
@nanoUFO@sh.itjust.works avatar

You trust a billion dollar company with no morals with your data? Isn’t that the whole point we are on this site? Community servers are like lemmy instances.

Bluescluestoothpaste, (edited )

Sure, and they can have AI moderators in lemmy instances. Whatever problems are concerning about corporate AI admins also apply to corporate human admins.

Kolanaki,
!deleted6508 avatar

They already have your data without the AI. Most games have had wide rangeing telemetry sent to the dev for over a decade now. This includes the text chat logs.

nanoUFO,
@nanoUFO@sh.itjust.works avatar

Yeah now they have everyones open mic too.

n3er0o,
@n3er0o@lemmy.ml avatar

Unrelated to the topic, but wasn’t Titanfall 2 plagued by this one hacker that basically filled every lobby with bots to make the servers crash? I think I very recently heard about them resolving the issue and the player count surpassed the numbers at launch even.

Mechaguana,
@Mechaguana@programming.dev avatar

I dont understand, wouldnt it be just a mod spying on you instead?

Die4Ever,
@Die4Ever@programming.dev avatar

Just like the Fediverse actually

Kolanaki,
!deleted6508 avatar

Active moderation isn’t spying but using an AI is? The only reason those self-hosted community servers didn’t have problems was because they (usually) had active admins to see bad behavior and take action. This is merely automating that so a real human being doesn’t have to be there watching.

nanoUFO,
@nanoUFO@sh.itjust.works avatar

This is automating something based on blizzard rules not community rules. What if people want even stricter rules or looser or none at all or completely different rules? Also how many times have billion dollar companies been caught selling customers private info? Too many to count.

regbin_,

There were no SBMM, no thanks.

LordOfTheChia, (edited ) do games w VR still makes 40-70% of players want to throw up, and that's a huge problem for the companies behind it

Would be nice if the author had done a bit of research on the specific things that had been done in VR since he tried his DK2 to prevent nausea:

An Oculus DK2, a PC that couldn’t quite run a rollercoaster demo at a high-enough framerate, and a slightly-too-hot office full of people watching me as I put on the headset. Before I’d completed the second loop-de-loop, it was clear that VR and I were not going to be good friends.

The study the author quotes dates to August 2019!

insidescience.org/…/cybersickness-why-people-expe…

For one, non-persistent displays have become the norm. These only show (strobe) the image for a fraction of the frame time and go black in between. Valve discovered that the full 1/90th of a second an image is displayed is enough to induce nausea if the head is moving during that time. So the Vive (and the Oculus Rift) had non-persistent displays.

The stobing effect is so fast you don’t notice it.

Elimination of artificial movement is another. The reason Valve focused on games with teleport movement and made a big deal of “room scale” early on was to eliminate the nausea triggers you encounter in other types of experiences.

Valve had an early version of Half Life 2 VR during the days of the DK2, but they removed it as the artificial motion made people sick (myself included).

For many, sims work as long as there is a frame in their field of vision to let their brains lock into that non-moving frame of reference (ex car A-pillars, roof line, dash board, outline of view screen on a ship interior, etc). Note the frame still moves when you move your head, so it’s not a static element in your field of view.

Also it helps if your PC can render frames under the critical 11.1ms frame time (for 90Hz displays). Coincidentally, 90Hz is the minimum Valve determined is needed to experience “presence”. Many folks don’t want to turn down graphic options to get to this. It’s doable in most games even if it won’t be as detailed as it would on a flat screen. Shadows is a big offender here.

Resolution isn’t as big of a factor in frametimes as detailed shadows and other effects. I have run games at well over 4k x 2.5k resolution per eye and been able to keep 11.1ms frame times.

Lastly, it has been noted that any movement or vibration to the inner ear can for many stave off nausea. This includes jogging in place while having the game world move forward. For many years we’ve had a free solution that integrates into Steam VR:

github.com/pottedmeat7/OpenVR-WalkInPlace

Jog in place to make your character move forward in the direction you’re facing. Walk normally to experience 1-to-1 roomscale.

I’ve use the above to play Skyrim VR without any nausea. Good workout too!

For car, flight, spaceflight simulators, a tactile transducer on your chair (looks like a speaker magnet without the cone - or basically a subwoofer without the cone) can transfer the games sound vibrations directly to you and therefore your inner ear and prevent nausea.

I’ve literally played over 1,000 hours of Elite:Dangerous this way as well as Battlezone VR and Vector 36. All games that involve tons of fast artificial movement.

The main issue is too many people tried out VR cardboard or old DK2 demos with low and laggy framerate, persistent displays, and poorly designed VR experiences and simply write off all VR as bad and nausea inducing.

Edit: added links and trailers to the games mentioned so folks can see the motion involved. The “study” wasn’t a proper study. It was a quote from a scientist. No data was given about what headsets or which experiences caused nausea.

Noodle07,

/thread

rambaroo, (edited )

VR is a niche product that hasn’t and won’t solve this problem.

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