bin.pol.social

Metarespawn, do gaming w Weekly “What are you playing” Thread || Week of July 7th

iam death stranding what i learned Balancing gaming with breaks improves focus and reaction time a lot. Even a 5-minute stretch every hour can keep you sharp for longer sessions.

TabbsTheBat, do games w Pop it in your calendars
@TabbsTheBat@pawb.social avatar

It’s a canon event for any game company that achieves moderate success

daniskarma,

Kerbal Space Program 2 still hurts me.

nuko147,
@nuko147@lemmy.world avatar

Although Kerbal space program 2 had major issues from the dev team, only for the publisher to pull the plug because of how bad the progress was, and leave the game in permanent early access.

sp3ctr4l,

Uh, its more like a new publisher bought the IP, functionally fired almost all of the original dev team, and then hired a bunch of other people who had no idea how their insanely modified version of Unity worked…

And then the idiot in charge just started spamming out extremely grand and difficult to implement new core functionalities… with a team of mostly newbies who had no idea how anything worked.

So, basically, they started out where KSP started out… and would very obviously thus need years and years and years to get it out of Early Access / Alpha state… but it needed to make money NOW, and it didn’t, so everyone got laid off (other than the idiot in charge), and the game was functionally abandoned, but not totally abandoned, because MY IP MINE NO YOU CANT HAVE IT!!!

Or… maybe not? With regard to the IP rights?

Nobody seems to know who actually owns the KSP IP at this point.

techdriveplay.com/…/kerbal-space-program-2-a-tale…

ByteJunk,
@ByteJunk@lemmy.world avatar

I never understood the fixation on IPs. For a kick ass universe with amazing lore etc, ok sure.

I mean I love Jeb and the gang as much as the next guy, but they’re not core to my enjoyment of KSP1. The mechanics were.

sp3ctr4l,

lol, RIP Jebs 1 - 48395.

But uh yeah, the… the lore is basically:

We made some cute little dudes and dudettes that are… possibly animated, sapient fungi? Or something?

Anyway they are sm0l and live in sm0l solar system.

And they have a space program.

And most of the characters are just obvious cutesy knock offs of famous humans in spaceflight.

Woo!

lol

AwesomeLowlander,

Name recognition sells stuff. Somebody who loved KSP 1 will probably give KSP 3 a go, at least to a greater probability than an unrelated game in the same genre.

cynar,

It was even worse than that.

They were basically given the KSP1 codebase and told to rewrite it to be better. However, KSP1 was still being developed, and they didn’t want to demotivate the KSP1 team. Therefore they were banned from even telling them it existed, let alone ask for help or advice with the existing codebase.

Cornelius_Wangenheim,

Hopefully Kitten Space Agency ends up being a true spiritual sequel.

pennomi,

Except ConcernedApe, apparently.

TabbsTheBat,
@TabbsTheBat@pawb.social avatar

Individual devs seem to generally manage better I think :3. It’s once the companies expand is that stuff starts going awry

brucethemoose, (edited )

Coffee Stain’s another good example on the bigger end.

It does seem like there’s a danger zone behind a certain size threshold. It makes me worry for Warhorse (the KCD2 dev), which plans to expand beyond 250.

pory,
@pory@lemmy.world avatar

Didn’t sell out to a company or publisher with shareholder profit motives. Truly independent (not “indie” as slang for low budget) development teams don’t follow this pattern unless they sell their IP and studio outright.

RizzRustbolt,

Or the Terraria team.

kautau,

It’s a canon event for any game company that achieves moderate success gets acquired by investors

Very much not exclusive to the game industry

TabbsTheBat,
@TabbsTheBat@pawb.social avatar

True :3

I just said game to stay on topic tbh

kautau,

Makes sense, wasn’t untrue and I wasn’t criticizing, just wanted to make sure everyone remembers that the problem goes up the chain due to capitalism.

Various companies/games were mentioned in the comments, but I think a good example is Hello Games. Clearly fumbled their game launch and were over ambitious with No Man’s Sky.

But it’s gotten an incredible amount of things that were promised, and many things that weren’t, all as free updates. Sure, they’re still making money, that’s the point, but instead of Micro-transactions, overpriced DLC, fucking over the devs, shutting things down, they just keep rolling. I’m sure they’ve gotten offers of acquisition that were probably very lucrative, but they didn’t take them, and have continued their slow roll of making gamers happy.

shialac,

Rip ZA/UM

Duamerthrax,

I think Croteam has been able to have moderate success over the years, but being based in Eastern Europe might make them insulated from issues. Devolver only recently bought them, but they seem to be one of the few good publishers. I at least didn’t see their name on the Video Games Europe member list that’s opposed to SKGs.

burntbacon,

It would make sense for it to be canon in the subnautica universe. I think they were pretty much the epitome of authors with an anvil with the references to economics and governing.

etchinghillside, do games w Pop it in your calendars

Im gonna need a fact check on that bonus number.

sirico,
@sirico@feddit.uk avatar

Yes you are going to need to, but as you asked so presumptively I have a couple of links from pretty good journalistic sources.

rockpapershotgun.com/krafton-plan-to-delay-subnau…

theverge.com/…/krafton-delay-subnautica-2-250-mil…

The Bloomberg article they reference it’s paywalled to hell :D bloomberg.com/…/krafton-delays-subnautica-2-game-…

wioum,
@wioum@lemmy.world avatar

Bloomberg article: archive.is/njpO8

BakedCatboy,

Archive link for the Bloomberg article in case the gift link stops working archive.is/2mltm

ipitco,

You said it was a fact when it’s just a suspicion

FanBlade,

I mean, you made the claim presumptively, seems reasonable to think it would be on you to provide a source.

Resonosity,

Proving a negative vs a positive, exactly

paultimate14,

The $250 million bonus was due to kick in if Unknown Worlds hit certain revenue targets by the end of 2025

The whole key to this is how the bonus is structured, and that is unknown still. They very well may have just been something like “10% of net profit, capped at $250 million”.

If the whole cost of the game was JUST $250 million, that would put it in the [top-15](The $250 million bonus was due to kick in if Unknown Worlds hit certain revenue targets by the end of 2025) most expensive games we have official numbers for. This doesn’t pass the smell test.

Seleni,

Does it make sense to nitpick how much they’re getting though? The fact that they’re being denied any bonus is shady as fuck.

paultimate14,

That’s how bonuses work. If it was guaranteed regardless of how the company perfroms, it wouldn’t be a bonus.

It is entirely possible that, even if they had released Subnautica 2 in its current state right now, it may not meet sales expectations and no one would get a bonus anyways. They could make a great game and the marketing team drops the ball- no bonus. They could market like crazy but the game sucks- no bonus. Data breaches or corporate embezzlement or world war- there are tons of factors that could prevent them from meeting those goals.

The amount is also important because it is being used by the position to try to support an argument that Krafton made this move in order to avoid paying the bonus. When in reality the cost of that bonus payment is probably a tiny fraction of what they are losing by delaying the game.

Personally I hate bonuses, and I have always advocated at my company for more of the payroll to be structured as salary. But other colleagues of mine really like bonuses. They like the increased reward and risk involved. It comes down to risk aversion, so I’m not going to call those people or employers evil or anything just because it’s not my preference.

I’m also not defending Krafton’s decision to replace the leadership and delay the game. Personally I suspect that they did so in order to add more monetization to the game, but that’s impossible to know until reviews start to get published. I will say that no one should pre-order the game, but I would also say no one should pre-order any game. Why are people pre-ordering games at all?

And what if Krafton is right? What if the game is actually in a state right now that would disappoint customers? Seems like for the last decade every videogame community has been complaining about games being released as unfinished and buggy meses. No Man’s Sky and Cyberpunk for example. Any time Nintendo delays a game, all their fans applaud and share the Miyamoto meme (“a delaged game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad”). So I’m really surprised to see that a publisher has come out and admitted that they think the game needs more time to meet customer expectations and instead of applauding them for taking the loss the Internet is instead promoting these weird conspiracy theories that don’t add up to explain how it’s actually bad.

ChairmanMeow,
@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev avatar

According to Krafton’s statement the remaining employees are getting their bonus though.

etchinghillside,

Apologies - that was not a dig at the validity of the information provided.

That’s a very high number - so I had to either be misunderstanding the number or underestimating the number of employees the bonus was going to.

atticus88th,

This fact check provided by EA Games.

flandish, do games w Pop it in your calendars

i never bought 1. But also the story behind 2 feels like ksp2.

JoeKrogan,
@JoeKrogan@lemmy.world avatar

But you played it Right ?

Right ?

</Anakin meme>

flandish,

No. I still need to. :/

TachyonTele,

It's a really good game and still holds it's own to this day. Highly recommend it.

WraithGear,
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

If you got vr is best played that way. Best horror game on vr.

flandish,

it’s a horror game? prob will pass then. Also lemme borrow your vr for porn though. I’ll give it back.

burntbacon,

It’s horror in the sense that Bioshock was horror, but much less so. There are some areas with ‘tension’ that you pretty quickly become accustomed to, just as you would in a game where there is a ‘progression’ of areas where each area you move into is quite difficult at first until you get the resources and build the new items from that area.

flandish,

oh! that’s cool. will put it on my todo list. thanks!!

WraithGear,
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

I highly recommend it on a vr device if possible, but to everyone who has played it knows, it has its moments. But its not as wrote as a run of the mill horror game, i may have given the game a disservice labeling it as such.

Outerwilds is also a must play in vr,

duchess,

Subnautica was lightning in a bottle.

atro_city, do games w Pop it in your calendars

Gib sauce!

Ellvix, do games w Pop it in your calendars
@Ellvix@lemmy.world avatar

And they want to add micro transactions

Zorque,

But they said they wouldn’t!

paultimate14, do games w Pop it in your calendars

I’m at least willing to wait until it gets reviews to make a sound judgement.

I don’t think the bonus would have been a big enough reason to delay the game. Delaying a game like this relatively last-minute and giving it an extra year of development is waaaay more expensive than the bonuses would have been. That’s a gigantic revenue spike they were expecting to get this year and now have to push out to next year, and they may well end up paying out similar bonuses next year too.

My suspicion, from the history of Steve Papoutsis, is that Kraftom wanted to add in anti-player elements and the original founders refused. Probably micro transactions, or maybe even having a bigger multiplayer focus to make it closer to a live-service game. Some mechanism to get money from customers beyond the original purchase. I suspect crap like that will be reason enough not to buy the game when it comes out.

Boddhisatva,

Delaying a game like this relatively last-minute and giving it an extra year of development is waaaay more expensive than the bonuses would have been.

Is it still more expensive if they just shelve it and pretend to give it extra development? I haven’t seen any details on why it wasn’t ready for release or what they are changing or adding? A quarter billion dollars in savings seems like pretty good motivation for a company to park a project for 6 to 12 months.

Gullible,

Agreed. Subnautica 1 steam revenue breakdown offers a bit of perspective on why they might want to play pretend.

“How much money did Subnautica make? We estimate that Subnautica made $274,113,745.92 in gross revenue since its release. Out of this, the developer had an estimated net revenue of $80,863,555.05. Refer to the revenue table for a full breakdown of these numbers.”

$274,113,746
GROSS REVENUE

ADJ. REGIONAL PRICING
$24,670,237.13

DISCOUNTS
$54,822,749.18

REFUNDS
$32,893,649.51

STEAM CUT
$48,518,133.03

VAT / SALES TAX
$32,345,422.02

NET REVENUE
$80,863,555.05

paultimate14,

Bloomberg reported that the bonus was tied to revenue targets. So the $250,000 estimate must be estimating significantly higher revenues for them in 2025.

What you posted is just the sales on 1 platform for 1 game, whixh came out in 2018 when games were cheaper.

Gullible,

It’s far and away their most profitable game to date, so it would make sense to get some perspective from it. Can you offer anything concrete about their other platform sales? I’m not familiar with any tools for that

paultimate14,

Is it still more expensive if they just shelve it

Yes. Like, it’s not even a question it’s more expensive to delay it. First of all, they are choosing to pay for 6-12 months of extra development, which alone is probably several times more money than the bonus that they would have paid out. I don’t know what their payroll is, but we don’t need to know because math.

If the bonus was for 1/2 annual salary per person (which would be insanely high), then the cost of the bonus would be the same as 6 months of additional payroll. Meaning that with any longer delay than 6 months or smaller bonus structure than 1/2 of annual salary, it becomes more expensive to delay the game. Both of which are incredibly likely in my opinion.

And that’s just salary. It’s possible the studio was planning on laying people off after release, but more likely that they would have moved to a other project that is currently wrapping up pre-production. So this is causing a cascading effect unless they hire additional staff to catch up.

Then you have marketing costs. The rule of thumb in the industry is that half the overall budget is marketing. There are all sorts of contracts they probably had- digital stuff like banner ads on websites, on the console digital storefronts, partnerships with twitch streamers and YouTubers and review websites, physical stuff like cardboard cutouts and fliers. They may have started printing for boxes for physical releases (though I’m not sure whether this game would have had one or not). They may have started acquiring merch inventory: shirts and stickers and backpacks and flashlights and more perhaps. Some of these contracts they may be able to postpone or cancel, but they certainly aren’t getting back 100% of what they paid.

And in all of this time they aren’t getting the huge revenue spike they were expecting. The vast, vast majority of a game’s revenue comes at launch (excluding live services, which this hopefully will not have). They need to survive another year on the trickle of revenue coming in from the sales of their other games, or Krafton may need to pump more of their own money into Unknown Worlds. Or debt.

chocrates,

According to one of the articles above the publishers operating profit last year was "only" $300m so that bonus would make the shareholders mad I guess.

AreaKode, do games w Pop it in your calendars

Arrrr…

CocaineShrimp, do games w Pop it in your calendars

Die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain

ceenote,

This looks less like heroes becoming villains and more like villains (who were always villains) tricking the hero and murdering them. Unknown World’s founders and developers of the first game all got fired by the company that acquired them.

RadicalEagle,

Definitely died as heroes.

athairmor,

The founders are the villains of this piece as much as Krafton. They sold out for a big payday. This was all very predictable.

You’d have to really dense to think that Krafton is going to come along with half a billion dollars and just let things carry on as usual.

TachyonTele,

They didn't sell out. That's a childish view.
They made one and a half games (Subnautica and the dlc turned full release), never made the direct sequel, cut thier losses and cashed thier checks.

If they sold out they'd still be on the dev team, making micro transactions for the corpo.

athairmor,

They literally sold out. They sold the company. And, they sold it to a corporation whose portfolio is littered with microtransactions.

cut their losses

What losses? Were they not profitable?

and cashed their checks

Yeah, that’s the selling out part.

ceenote,

They tempted the heroes with wealth beyond measure so that by the time they stab them in the back, nobody mourns.

Tattorack, do games w Pop it in your calendars
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

Well… Piracy it is, then.

swordgeek,

Probably not really feasible - it will require constant connection to a back-end server to play or some bullshit like that.

But even if you can, that’s not the answer. The proper action is to deny them entirely. Don’t play the game, don’t play PUBG, don’t do anything that expands their reach, money or not.

They need to suffer with NOBODY playing this game. They need to suffer by people deleting their Battlegrounds accounts. Software piracy is what makes games legendary.

duchess,

Or do the boycott right and don’t play the game at all.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

I’ll just watch some let’s plays on YouTube

DeathByBigSad, (edited )

I mean, does anyone above age 18 even have any energy at all?

I’ve watched more gameplay than my total gametime combined, its more relaxing and for horror games for example, its less stress on the heart.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod, (edited )
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

I only got into subnautica because Markiplier was so funny screaming in the videos

Tattorack,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

Doing the boycott “right” means not paying money. Corpos think each pirated copy is a loss. That’s how they explain it to their investors too:

“Look at all this money we’re not making because of those damn dirty pirates!”

duchess,

That’s not what they think, that’s just how their law lackeys justify horrendous fines. Their market analysts will still see the „talk“ about the game, by people who played, legally or not.

LostWanderer, do games w Pop it in your calendars
@LostWanderer@fedia.io avatar

I'm not particularly excited about this upcoming dumpster fire...Already took it off my Wishlist.

stupidcasey, do games w Pop it in your calendars

Gotta be honest, I would do the same and worse for 250 million dollars.

Green_Mouse, do games w Pop it in your calendars
@Green_Mouse@piefed.social avatar

Yikes!

CidVicious, (edited ) do games w Pop it in your calendars
@CidVicious@sh.itjust.works avatar

I thought the people fired were executives, not creatives.

Edit: I also don’t see how a boycott helps the actual people working on the game.

BombOmOm,
@BombOmOm@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, I’m just going to wait and see. If it’s good, I’ll buy it, otherwise I won’t.

swordgeek, do games w Pop it in your calendars

Oooh, there’s a lawsuit waiting to happen.

$250M PLUS legal costs PLUS $250M in punitive fees. That should hurt them a bit.

MJKee9,

You can’t typically get punitive damages for contract disputes. Also, there is a very real possibility that the contract hasn’t been breached by the new owners’ actions. It sounds like they used their superior bargaining power to put a lot of questionable yet enforceable provisions in the contract.

thann,

Ive heard of it once where the defendant litterally wrote a book on how to use overseas buisness to pull off scams like the one he was being accused of

swordgeek,

Punitive damages can be awarded for bad-faith bargaining, which definitely seems to be the case here.

It’s a stretch perhaps, but that’s what I think would be reasonable.

MJKee9,

Typically, conduct would have to rise to the level of fraud to justify punitives in a contract based dispute. That’s a very high hurdle in most jurisdictions. Also, at that point the conduct complained of would likely be based in tort, not contract.

Aatube,

By what law?

rollerbang,

Not a lawyer but I’m guessing it would have to be proven as a justifiable delay.

Aatube,

That’s easy, just say there were features they wanted

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