Inhuman. I can't believe how they would fire everybody without telling them what's going on, just shutting off all their accounts and leaving them hanging.
Been playing on twow for about a month now, it scratches the vanilla itch better than classic did, folks seem reasonably friendly and it’s nice to have a community on the server vs modern WoW of never seeing the same person twice
As the title suggests, over the last couple of days there’s been an influx of doomer comments over the SKG petition. While it’s fine to disagree, I’m finding it suspicious that there weren’t comments like this posted a week or 2 ago
he obligations have to be considered during development.
They should be, but my understanding is that there’s only a penalty if they kill a game without an EOL solution, and what their EOL plans are don’t need to be complete or even stay the same during development. The wording is really flexible here and allows companies a lot of room to explore different options.
If a company can’t redistribute the server code, their options include (and there are probably more):
write and release a functional replacement
document the API spec for a functional replacement and help the community develop it as the EOL approaches
cut out the server bits, or have them gracefully fall back (e.g. for something like Dark Souls, drop the MP feature)
find a replacement that allows redistribution and make the necessary changes before EOL
That’s certainly easier to do at the start, but my understanding is that the obligation only kicks in once the servers are shut down.
And yes, it’s not “free”, but it’s basically free for an indie shop that likely built the server from scratch or used something FOSS. And that describes PS.
Especially, Trackmania nations forever (the old stadium one) online features do work on Nadeo servers but are not relying on it for everything. The nadeo servers are still up, but if they ever go down the whole community has already tons of solutions to keep the gamme running. Games should not be relying on the master servers for every single thing and allow local and LAN servers too
Today’s game is some more Zomboid. We played some more of our save where we’re camped out in the Military Apartment. We even got another Friend on (Who we call Chef). He owned the game but never got to give it much of a try until now, so we decided to rectify that (plus he also helped us board up windows and burn corpses)....
The server I mentioned in an earlier post seemed to be functioning well, so I added the info needed to show it in the games server list. This is the current description of the server:...
I’m a member of a Discord server like that. It’s named Past Gen. This is the server’s own introduction:
Welcome to Past Gen Gaming! We’re a community of generally older, but mainly patient and relaxed gamers. There is no age requirement to join us, just the mindset. We won’t tolerate elitism, toxicity, nor any form of hatred. A lot of us don’t have a lot of free time, so when we do, we like it to be a good time. So sit back, relax, and let’s play some games together.
Just let me know if you’d like an invitation link. If so, I would DM it to you instead of posting it publicly.
Me too! Did in person LAN events and managed servers for Multiplay. No game will ever come close to the engaged community. Fusion X was my clan from start to end.
I haven’t played in ~a year, but afaik yes! The benefits of selfhosted servers. I think there were 3-4 servers going strong on the weekends. Unfortunately, a lot of those players were the… worst kind. Hyper competitive, 10k hours, surrender the second something goes wrong types. (Edit- this might have been because my own ELO was super high, so different levels might vary)
Still amazing to see any activity this long!
My understanding of the situation was one of the creators/founders/idk said they don’t want to do anything more with guns. Hence why subnautica has no “real” weapons and no NS3. This was a long time ago with some old tweet(?). I don’t know if a community-funded thing would get support from the original creators.
So tone deaf, and clearly they’re just trying to steer the narrative.
They call out that it’s never taken lightly and it has to happen. We know. Stop killing games just says you have to do something when you turn off the servers. Either release the server source code so it can be engineered by the community, release a self hostage server alternative, even just documents or guides on how to get started.
But they’re going to try to make it about the mean old gamers want them to go broke
Private servers are not always a viable alternative option for players as the protections we put in place to secure players’ data, remove illegal content, and combat unsafe community content would not exist and would leave rights holders liable. In addition, many titles are designed from the ground-up to be online-only; in effect, these proposals would curtail developer choice by making these video games prohibitively expensive to create.
I feel like the first is fair enough at the moment, but with accompanying laws it could be resolved. Eg once a developer enacts an end of life plan, their legal culpability is removed. Plus give the right tools for moderation and the community can take care of it.
Second is just a cop out I think. “Many titles are designed from the ground up to be online only” - that’s the whole point. It’s not retroactive, so you don’t need to redesign an existing game. But going forward you would need to plan for the eventual end of life. Developers have chimed in that it can be done.
We appreciate the passion of our community; however, the decision to discontinue online services is multi-faceted, never taken lightly and must be an option for companies when an online experience is no longer commercially viable. We understand that it can be disappointing for players but, when it does happen, the industry ensures that players are given fair notice of the prospective changes in compliance with local consumer protection laws.
Private servers are not always a viable alternative option for players as the protections we put in place to secure players’ data, remove illegal content, and combat unsafe community content would not exist and would leave rights holders liable. In addition, many titles are designed from the ground-up to be online-only; in effect, these proposals would curtail developer choice by making these video games prohibitively expensive to create.
…
Stop Killing Games is not trying to force companies to provide private servers or anything like that, but leave the game in a playable state after shutting off servers. This can mean:
provide alternatives to any online-only content
make the game P2P if it requires multiplayer (no server needed, each client is a server)
gracefully degrading the client experience when there’s no server
Of course, releasing server code is an option.
The expectation is:
if it’s a subscription game, I get access for whatever period I pay for
if it’s F2P, go nuts and break it whenever you want; there is the issue of I shame purchases, so that depends on how it’s advertised
if it’s a purchased game, it should still work after support ends
That didn’t restrict design decisions, it just places a requirement when the game is discontinued. If companies know this going in, they can plan ahead for their exit, just like we expect for mining companies (they’re expected to fill in holes and make it look nice once they’re done).
I argue Stop Killing Games doesn’t go far enough, and if it’s pissing off the games industry as well, then that means it strikes a good balance.
Another part of it is that if they discontinue support, they can’t stop the community from creating their own server software.
There are so many ways to approach this. The point is ensuring consumers retain the right to keep using what they purchased, even if they have to support it themselves.
Sort of. They need to have the tools as well. So I suppose they could release the APIs for their servers before shutting down their servers so community servers can be created, that would probably be sufficient. But they need to do something beyond just saying, “we won’t sue you if you reverse engineer it.”
Yeah… The abstract (sorry, will read article a bit later) is bunch of nonsense to me (in respect to what is written, no offense to you):
online experience commercially viable? The fuck they are talking about? Yeah, I know what is meant, but they would get fucking F in school for expressing thoughts in such a nonsensical way
protections against illegal content would not exist on private servers? Really? Like only your company’s servers can run that? What, you write them in machine code directly? Or is it all done manually? Anyhow, just release source code and it will be up to community to find a way to make it run
I remember the “old days”. That was when dialup internet was still popular and running a server usually meant it was on your 10Mb LAN. When we got DSL it was better and you could serve outside your LAN. This was also the time when games had dark red code booklets, required having a physical CD inserted or weirdly formatted floppies (sometimes a combination of these). You could get around these things and many groups of people worked hard at providing these workarounds. Today, many of these games are only playable and only still exist because of the thankless work these groups did. As it was and as it is has not changed. Many groups of people are still keeping games playable despite the “war” that corporations wage on them (and by proxy on us). Ironically, now that there is such a thing as “classic games” and people are nostalgic for what brought them joy in the past, business has leapt at this as a marketing opportunity. What makes that ironic? These business are re-selling the versions of games with the circumvention patches that the community made to make their games playable so long ago. The patches that publishers had such a big problem with and sought to eradicate. This is because the original code no longer exists and the un-patched games will not run at all on modern hardware and the copy-protections will not tolerate a virtual machine. Nothing has changed.
We can even go back as far as when people first started making books or maps that had deliberate errors so that they could track when their work was redistributed. Do the people referencing these books or maps benefit from these errors?
Why do some of us feel compelled to limit knowledge even at the cost of corrupting that knowledge for those we intend it for (and for those long after who wish to learn from historical knowledge)?
Opted for large scaled systems. It’s more than just simple software. There is a ton of infrastructure and proprietary solutioning that goes into it. That’s likely used for other games as well.
Doesn’t mean it can’t be released, just that it might be difficult to reproduce. It would still be much, much easier to reverse engineer that than to reverse engineer everything from the client and network communication captures.
It may not even be possible to release the software because it is not just software and the resources to prepare it for releasing may not be available.
In other words, so you don’t know, and vague assumptions on a closed box because closed boxes allow you to make them.
Most MMOs usually have multiple instances running, each which need to be maintained separately. That means they have usually gone through the process of encapsulating the server functionality in a way that can be reproduced and recreated into new instances. They have to be maintained at the same time, so they need to be relatively standard. At one point those supposedly absent resources to duplicate the instance of a server have likely existed, and just need to be packaged for public release. Proprietary portions can simply be excluded - an incomplete release is preferable to an absent one. Can’t release databases, they can release schemas, etc. Incomplete > absent.
You largely seem to be giving MMO companies the excuse that if their server solution could theoretically be proprietary and convoluted enough, even if it really isn’t, that they not be subject to the Stop Killing Games initiative. MMOs, unlike single player games, have a far more notable sociable and persistence factor to them, a bigger cultural footprint within those communities, that makes the Stop Killing Games Initiative particularly applicable to them. There’s one simply way not to be subject to its demands - don’t kill the games.
protections we put in place to secure players’ data, remove illegal content, and combat unsafe community content would not exist
Nanny State BS. If someone runs a private server, it’s their responsibility to moderate it.
and would leave rights holders liable.
No it wouldn’t.
In addition, many titles are designed from the ground-up to be online-only
Unreal Tournament games are online or multiplayer only games. Even though Epic shut down the master servers, you can modify the .ini file to redirect to a community server. “Online-only” translates to predatory monetization models.
Private servers are not always a viable alternative option for players as the protections we put in place to secure players’ data, remove illegal content, and combat unsafe community content would not exist and would leave rights holders liable.
Incorrect. Only in a capitalist hellhole like America. In the rest of the world this would never be a problem. Just release the server code under MIT and let the community fix it. Also make sure you can manually setup a masterserver in the game itself, or implement direct connect functionality.
many titles are designed from the ground-up to be online-only; in effect, these proposals would curtail developer choice by making these video games prohibitively expensive to create.
Same answer as before. Release the online part under the MIT license. Not your problem anymore at that point. You can still require an original game license for the game itself. We’re only talking about the server software here.
We welcome the opportunity to discuss our position with policy makers and those who have led the European Citizens Initiative in the coming months.
We, the people, have been discussing this for at least a decade now. Get over it and stop trying you capitalist pigs.
Private servers are not always a viable alternative option for players as the protections we put in place to secure players’ data, remove illegal content, and combat unsafe community content would not exist and would leave rights holders liable.
Just make people sign one of those “I understand there’s no guarantees this’ll work or won’t rape me” when they download the private server software, you fucking corporate snakes.
“You pass a law that states cars can’t have greenhouse gasses by 2035”
Apples and oranges. Demanding cars transition to clean fuel alternatives is not the same as demanding game manufacturers design and implement systems that must be fully functional in an offline state. This would be akin to demanding nuclear reactors be retrofitted to use fusion by 2035. Despite it not being sustainable or commercially possible.
“Release server binaries”
How do you enforce that? Legally compel a company to publish the server binaries with every copy of the game? Are developers expected to eat the cost when copies are pirated and use third party servers? I love things like FiveM or private servers for dead MMORPGs but those are usually created as a niche for specific communities. Is every game expected to have third party servers? Sounds magical but under capitalism, that’s an insane demand.
“The ability to patch games has been around since forever”
I’m not talking about the ability because yes it’s always technically been possible, I’m talking in 9/10 cases you’d get a physical copy of a game and that was it. Unchanging. It shipped and it’s done. You owned the disk, the data on that disk, and had full control over it aside from redistribution for profit. Actual updates that were delivered over the internet came around the same time as Steam and DRM programs.
I genuinely don’t see how we can fully own our games while developers retain the legal ability to modify them. The law as it exists gives the consumer protections around owned property like that.
“You’re arguing with strawmen”
I am deriving statements from insinuations you yourself are making. Consumer protections prevent companies from altering things they sell you. It’s your property after the sale. It’s possible you’re unaware of that but it’s an extremely strong reason why the industry made the switch. It wasn’t just for giggles or greed.
“That server software can run on any computer just as well”
Okay explain to me what happens when Final Fantasy XI reaches end of life and all services that authenticate and host player data shut down? Who hosts that? Are developers who want massive open worlds going to be expected, by law, to program a world that plays itself? Bots for NPCs, taking the roles of players, pushing events automatically? I am begging for answers because it keeps feeling like I’m the only one trying to figure out what’s going to happen to the games I play regularly.
Most online only games are online only because they focus on players interacting with other players on a grand scale. They’re a social experience. Demands that it be playable offline defeats the purpose of it existing and we went over the server binaries thing. Nobody is going to jump at the chance to reset their progress for most of these games just for the shot to play it for however long this specific server is alive.
I hope I’m wrong but this entire thing seems like a well intentioned, misguided bomb intent to be dropped in the middle of the industry.
Demanding cars transition to clean fuel alternatives is not the same as demanding game manufacturers design and implement systems that must be fully functional in an offline state. This would be akin to demanding nuclear reactors be retrofitted to use fusion by 2035. Despite it not being sustainable or commercially possible.
Are you even listening to yourself? I’m pretty sure it’s harder to redesign a car’s engine and fuel system than it is to have counter strike call myshittyhomeserver.com instead of valvesmoneygenerator.com - and just the thought that you think it’s about as complex to disable some stupid drm system (which has been done numerous times before by kids with too much time on their hands) as it is to design a fusion reactor is just insane.
But again: they do not have to be fully functional in an offline state. Just release the server if that’s what’s needed. You already sold me the game, you stopped providing the one part that you wanted to provide, now just give me that. Done.
How do you enforce that? Legally compel a company to publish the server binaries with every copy of the game?
No! No no no! It’s after the game reached its eol! The idea is that the companies keep doing what they do, but once they’re done they have some roadmap to leave the game in a functional state. Once they’re done!
I’m talking in 9/10 cases you’d get a physical copy of a game and that was it.
Actual updates that were delivered over the internet came around the same time as Steam and DRM programs.
Bullshit. For games that ran from their ROMs (like snes-era) that was true because there was literally no way to modify them. But ever since they were used on media with write access, they got patched. You should just download a patch, point it to the directory where you installed the game and be done. If your connection sucked you’d buy a magazine that had patches on its CD or something.
Also, steam doesn’t guarantee updates either. If a developer doesn’t want to update their game, that’s it. If a developer wants to update their game, great, that works without any such system as well. Can you force people to apply updates if the game isn’t online? No. Does all of this have anything to do with the initiative? Not at all. This isn’t about patching games that are still supported. This is about what happens long after the last patch was released.
Okay explain to me what happens when Final Fantasy XI reaches end of life and all services that authenticate and host player data shut down? Who hosts that?
That’s not the question! If a developer decided to release server binaries after they shut down the service, at least I could host it. I could just run it locally, the community could come together to run an instance or whatever. This is about having such options, not about forcing publishers to keep hosting their stuff.
Are developers who want massive open worlds going to be expected, by law, to program a world that plays itself? Bots for NPCs, taking the roles of players, pushing events automatically? I am begging for answers because it keeps feeling like I’m the only one trying to figure out what’s going to happen to the games I play regularly.
None of that is demanded! Nothing! And I have no idea where you’re pulling those ideas from!
Massively multiplayer online worlds don’t have to be populated by bots. Multiplayer games don’t have to be redesigned. If a player opened a game to see a barren land, filled with no players and only dead npcs, that’s fine. But hey, they could occasionally stroll through the forest that they met their spouse in or something. Just like looking at a painting in a museum with your friends is different from looking at it at home, this would be the case here, too. But at least you can still enjoy your painting, unlike the game that’s been remotely disabled.
Most online only games are online only because they focus on players interacting with other players on a grand scale. They’re a social experience. Demands that it be playable offline defeats the purpose of it existing and we went over the server binaries thing. Nobody is going to jump at the chance to reset their progress for most of these games just for the shot to play it for however long this specific server is alive.
This is true. Except it might not be nobody. We’re talking about culture. Just like thousands of songs have been written to be forgotten, occasionally there are pieces that become culturally relevant. Sometimes even after the author dies. Imagine Franz Kafka writing his stories just to have Max Brod not publish them but lock them behind a shitty service that shut down after he wasn’t profitable enough, immediately burning all copies that were sold so far.
This is not about keeping the original experience. This is about museums being able to show people works of art fifty years from now. This is about me showing my childhood memories to my kids. Would they see my old friend dragonhaxxor9999 run into battle with me? Certainly not. But would they get an idea and would I be nostalgic about it? Certainly. And why would the profitability of some stupid service be a reason not to have that? Just let me fucking run the software I paid money for! I own those bits! Have my processor execute them if I want to!
Developer Interview: My Q&A with the creator of Minigalaxy angielski
Hello, everyone!...
Elder Scrolls Online devs detail “inhumane” Microsoft layoffs as Xbox expects the “carcass of workers” to “keep shipping award-winning games” (www.videogamer.com) angielski
Inhuman. I can't believe how they would fire everybody without telling them what's going on, just shutting off all their accounts and leaving them hanging.
What are the best free mmorpgs for a beginner? angielski
Not sure if this goes here or not?...
Does anyone else find it suspicious that there wasn't any criticism on here about Stop Killing Games until after it hit 1.4M signatures? angielski
As the title suggests, over the last couple of days there’s been an influx of doomer comments over the SKG petition. While it’s fine to disagree, I’m finding it suspicious that there weren’t comments like this posted a week or 2 ago
deleted_by_author
Day 368 of posting a Daily Screenshot from the games I've been playing angielski
Today’s game is some more Zomboid. We played some more of our save where we’re camped out in the Military Apartment. We even got another Friend on (Who we call Chef). He owned the game but never got to give it much of a try until now, so we decided to rectify that (plus he also helped us board up windows and burn corpses)....
"Beehive", an unnofficial, unsanctioned, unassociated Mineclonia server with seed "beehaw" is up! (beehaw.org)
The server I mentioned in an earlier post seemed to be functioning well, so I added the info needed to show it in the games server list. This is the current description of the server:...
Looking for cozy / wholesome gaming communities angielski
Looking for discord servers with good vibes, anything around cozy, coop, wholesome gaming....
Pop it in your calendars angielski
European game publisher group responds to Stop Killing Games, claims 'These proposals would curtail developer choice" (www.pcgamer.com) angielski
The signatures are still coming and it's already making an impact angielski
Statement on Stop Killing Games - VIDEOGAMES EUROPE (www.videogameseurope.eu) angielski
The UK Stop Killing Games petition has reached 100.000 signatures angielski
cross-posted from: sh.itjust.works/post/41402388...