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B0rax, do gaming w Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 sucks up to 180 Mb/s of internet bandwidth while in flight — equivalent to 81GB of data per hour

At this point, streaming the game (just the screen content) would be less of a bandwidth hog.

Hirom,

This shows they’re not trying very hard to optimize the simulator, but instead throw hardware and bandwidth at it, and expect users do the same.

Open world games like GTA allow flying over dense areas without using 180Mbps of bandwidth.

SketchySeaBeast,
@SketchySeaBeast@lemmy.ca avatar

Because GTA has 99.99% of the data on disk. MFS2024 is trying to keep the install size from being 500 GB, so rather than having the whole world on your PC they are streaming it in. GTA doesn’t do that.

Hirom,

GTA 5 require 120GB of disk size, not 500GB. And this include everything, game engine, assets, and the whole area. …rockstargames.com/…/Grand-Theft-Auto-V-PC-system…

Because everything has to fit on the average game PC or console storage, they have some pressure to optimize data size. A simulator that streams everything have less constraints on data size, less motivation to keep size reasonable.

SketchySeaBeast,
@SketchySeaBeast@lemmy.ca avatar

GTA 5’s entire game world is just the San Andreas area. The point of MFS2024 is that you can literally see your real world house from the air. It’s so, so, so much larger than GTA 5’s < 100 km2 it’s a totally unfair comparison.

Hirom,

I’m not suggesting putting the whole world on a 120GB disk.

That being said, most of the textures and building geometries used for San Andreas may be reused for other cities in the west coast. Areas between cities that have a lower density could take much less space.

So doubling the physical area covered doesn’t necessarily require doubling the amount of data. But the bandwidth usage from MSFT’s simulator suggest they are not reusing data when they could be.

wholookshere,

Except they can’t? Because the world itself doesn’t repeat like that.

Also we’re not talking a doubling of the area. We are talking 1:1 of the entire earth. Starting from satellite images.

SketchySeaBeast, (edited )
@SketchySeaBeast@lemmy.ca avatar

Yeah, you’re not getting the goal. They are using actual data from the areas you’re flying over. You’re suggesting they look at it like a game, where the reuse textures and models. Their goal is the opposite, to have the game look like the real world.

Even in MFS2020 my house roughly look like my house, and the taller structures look like they do in my city, they aren’t just skyscraper#93781 and bridge#12381, they are all unique structures that uses the bing maps data to look just like it does in real life. The landmarks in my city are my cities landmarks. They aren’t just generic buildings.

Hirom,

I happen to know a bit about game and simulators. From a plane’s point of view, houses dont look unique. A small number of models is enough to fairly represent most houses. There may be a minority of structures that are really unique (stadiums, bridges, landmarks, …) but the vast majority of buildings aren’t unique. Even if two building have different heights, it’s possible to reuse textures if they’re built from the same material.

MSFT appears to have designed the simulator by considering every building is unique, but if they compared buildings and textures, ideally using automation, they would see there’s a massive amount of duplication.

SketchySeaBeast,
@SketchySeaBeast@lemmy.ca avatar

The fact that you started by comparing it to GTA 5 makes it obvious you don’t know, but okie dokie, at this point I have to assume you’re just trolling.

ClassifiedPancake,

How small do you imagine the world of MFS is?

DdCno1,

Apples and oranges. GTA V has a small, entirely hand-built world. It’s just 80 square kilometers and was meant to fit onto two DVDs / one Blu Ray Disk. Real-world Los Angeles, which this is based on, is 1,210 square kilometers.

This Flight Simulator on the other hand covers the entire planet. If we are just going by land area, that’s 510.1 million square kilometers. It’s using a combination of satellite and aerial photography, radar maps, photogrammetry (reconstructing 3D objects - buildings and terrain in this case - from photos), Open Street Map and Bing Maps data, as well as hand-built and procedurally generated detail. There’s also information on the climate, live weather data, animal habitats (to spawn the right creatures in each part of the world), etc. pp. We are about two petabytes of data, which is an unfathomable amount outside of a data center.

You can not optimize your way out of this. The developers have the ambition to create the most detailed 1:1 virtual facsimile of this planet. There is no other way of achieving this goal. You can not store two petabytes of data on a consumer PC at the moment, you can not compress two petabytes of data to the point that they are being reduced to a couple hundred gigabytes and if your goal is accuracy, you cannot just reuse textures and objects from one city for another. That’s what every prior version of this flight simulator did, but if you remember those, the results were extremely disappointing, even for the time.

By the way, if you don’t have an active Internet connection, Flight Simulator 2020 (and 2024, if I’m not mistaken) will still work. They’ll just do what you’re suggesting, spawn generic procedurally generated buildings and other detail instead (in between a handful of high detail “hero” buildings in major cities), based on low-res satellite photography and OSM data, which is relatively small in size even for the whole planet and tells the program where a building and what its rough outline and height might be - but not what it actually looks like. Here’s a video from an earlier version of FS 2020 that shows the drastic difference: youtu.be/Z0T-7ggr8Tw

It is worth stressing that you will see this kind of relatively low detail geometry even with an Internet connection any time you’re flying in places where the kind of high quality aerial photography required for photogrammetry isn’t available of yet. FS 2020 has seen continuous content updates however, with entire regions being updated with higher quality photogrammetry and manually created detail every couple of months - and FS 2024 will receive the same treatment. I am generally not a fan of live-service games, but this is an exception. It makes the most sense here.

The one major downside is that eventually, the servers will be shut down. However, since you can choose to - in theory - cache all of the map data locally, if you have the amount of storage required, it is actually possible to preserve this data. It’s far out of reach for most people (we are talking low six figures in terms of cost), but in a few decades, ordinary consumer hardware is likely going to be able to store this amount of data locally. The moment Microsoft announces the shutdown of this service, people with the means will rush to preserve the data. Imagine what kind of amazing treasure this could be for future generations: A snapshot of our planet, of our civilization, with hundreds of cities captured with enough detail to identify individual buildings.

Hirom, (edited )

Thanks for the interesting details. Glad to see there’s an offline version that disables photogrammetry.

The church in england is a good example where a a generic rectangle building model doesn’t work. They could improve the offline version by adding a church model in the set of offline models, and use it for 90% of church in western Europe.

A fully realistic model of every single building may be cool for architects, future historians, city planners, gamers that are sightseeing… but don’t help much when learning to pilot. Having a virtual world that look similar to the real one, with buildings of the right size and positions, landmarks, and hero buildings is good enough, and doesn’t require that much resources. There are others parts of flight simulators that are more important to work on.

Kolanaki,
!deleted6508 avatar

To be fair, GTA also isn’t the size of Earth while using extremely high resolution satellite images as textures.

DdCno1,

Small clarification: Satellite imagery is only used where higher quality aerial photography isn’t available. For cities with full photogrammetry, a plane needs to fly over the whole area twice (the second time at 90 degrees relative to the first pass) in order to capture buildings from all sides.

helenslunch, do gaming w Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 sucks up to 180 Mb/s of internet bandwidth while in flight — equivalent to 81GB of data per hour
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

why does it need 1Mbps?

GammaGames, (edited )

Streaming high-res data from the cloud

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Ok but why

mbtrhcs,

because the earth is big and you don’t have a hard drive big enough to store it locally?

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

No one does

mbtrhcs,

Yeah…? That’s my point

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

I don’t get it.

thingsiplay,

Imagine you would save all YouTube videos on your hard drive. You don’t have enough space for that (and time to download anyway). So the next best thing is to just stream those videos and parts you actually watch.

And this is kind of how this game works; it will only deliver those parts and download in the background (which is called streaming) what you currently visit and need. Because you don’t have enough space on your drive.

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

So it’s a stream-only game?

ryannathans,

High quality photograhy of the earth streams, you don’t need to have it set to high quality

thingsiplay,

I don’t know if it has offline only mode.

DdCno1,

FS 2020 had an offline mode. You get much lower quality terrain and no live data like weather. I’m assuming it’s the same with FS 2024.

tuckerm,

mbtrhcs wasn't saying that you specifically don't have a big enough hard drive, they're saying that MS Flight Simulator is simply too big of a game to completely store on a player's computer.

MS Flight Simulator has a fairly accurate 3D model of the entire earth. Like, the whole thing. So it's constantly downloading the parts that the player is currently in, and deleting the parts that they are not in.

thingsiplay,

I hope there is a manual download function for your favorite areas to play them offline, that do not get deleted over time. Kind of how maps on your phone work, just with lot more requirements.

DdCno1,

There is. It’s called manual cache and it does exactly this:

i.imgur.com/MNmLqcb.jpeg

You can use as much storage space as you have available. There is no upper limit, as far as I know.

thingsiplay,

Live information from the earth like weather and other data. If its raining in your city, then it will be raining in the game at this place too. Plus the game does not have all other data anyway, because entire earth is too big for your drive.

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar
  1. Weather data does not need 180mbps
  2. You can’t disable this?
SaltySalamander,

because entire earth is too big for your drive

You sorta glossed over this part.

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

I didn’t gloss over anything. It simply makes no sense. The Earth is not a digital object.

GammaGames,

How… do you think we represent physical objects digitally? Vibes?

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

No one said anything about a digital representation. I can draw Earth in MS Paint and it’s like 1mb.

If your point is that it has a high resolution digital image of the Earth, just say that.

But my point still stands. I’d still rather have a 500GB local install instead of all the problems that come with game streaming.

GammaGames, (edited )

We shouldn’t have to say that at this point, my initial reply already conveyed that information.

I understand the gripe with it though, they have the option to download areas ahead of time.

(Though it’s probably a one-time download, with models and textures cached for later use)

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

We shouldn’t have to say that at this point, my initial reply already conveyed that information.

You sorta glossed over the part where I described how and why your reply was nonsense.

GammaGames,

My first reply said it was streaming high-res data from the cloud. Considering it’s a flight simulator advertising to cover the entire world, most people would intuit that would include textures and 3d models.

I’m not going to sit here and argue with you, have a nice day.

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

My first reply said it was streaming high-res data from the cloud.

Your first reply also stated that it needed 180mbps to stream weather data.

Considering it’s a flight simulator advertising to cover the entire world, most people would intuit that would include textures and 3d models.

You can fit the entire world’s texture and 3d models on a super small file. The file size is entirely dependent on the level of detail of those textures and models. Hence the MS Paint analogy.

I appreciate you not arguing anymore, at least you know when to quit.

GammaGames, (edited )

deleted_by_moderator

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  • helenslunch, (edited )
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    Alright, one more:

    I take it back, you don’t know when to quit.

    This was not me.

    Then I have no idea what reply you were referring to. Your first reply to me was a snarky one about digital representation of the Earth. Maybe check usernames next time.

    And your point about fitting the entire world’s albedo, normal, roughness, specular, height, etc etc textures as well as high-fidelity 3D models is laughably false.

    It would be, had I made such a comment. But I didn’t. You just pulled that out of your ass. I made a comment about storing “The Earth” on your local machine.

    you are literally the only person confused about this.

    Confused because people like you are making me that way.

    GammaGames,

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    Are you still here?

    SketchySeaBeast,
    @SketchySeaBeast@lemmy.ca avatar

    It’s not weather, it’s terrain and textures. It’s a high resolution stream of where you are flying over so you don’t need to keep the earth on your PC. The base install is supposed to be only ~30GB data, that’s not enough to see your house.

    helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    It’s dumb. I’d much rather have a 500GB install. They might as well just make the game a streaming service. It also ensures an early death for the game and no functionality without an internet connection.

    SketchySeaBeast,
    @SketchySeaBeast@lemmy.ca avatar

    I don’t think requiring online functionality is the death knell of a game in the year 2024. Personally, I’m excited. Their servers were so damn slow to download on initial install and I hated MSFS2020 taking up a quarter of my game drive.

    helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    I 100% disagree. Any game that requires connection to a remote server for single player functionality is dead to me. And any suggestion otherwise I take personal offense to.

    This makes your local game dependent on someone else’s server. That someone else, at any time, can shut down that server with zero consequences. They can change the terms of the deal, with zero consequences. Their servers may unintentionally go down or experience other technical issues, depriving you of the product you paid for, with zero consequences. Also you simply cannot use it away from an internet connection.

    You are at the mercy of the provider, who has absolutely no legal obligations to you.

    Their servers were so damn slow to download on initial install

    And you can’t see why that would be a massive problem while trying to livestream your game from their server?

    DdCno1,

    Only the installs were slow. Terrain streaming worked just fine right from the start (I played it from day one) - and once it’s cached on your machine, they can shut down the servers all they want, it’s still on your machine.

    helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    Only the installs were slow. Terrain streaming worked just fine right from the start

    Were you streaming at 180mbps?

    and once it’s cached on your machine, they can shut down the servers all they want, it’s still on your machine.

    That’s not how cache works.

    DdCno1,

    Were you streaming at 180mbps?

    More than that, actually. I measured well over 250 over large cities. Others have reported more than 300.

    That’s not how cache works.

    In this case, it does. The cache for this simulator is a disk cache - and it’s completely configurable. You can manually designate its size and which parts of the world it’ll permanently contain. There’s also a default rolling cache (also on SSD - this program doesn’t even support hard drives), which does get overwritten over time.

    helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    More than that, actually. I measured well over 250 over large cities. Others have reported more than 300.

    Interesting that they’re able to maintain such speeds for streaming map data but not downloads…

    In this case, it does.

    It doesn’t, in any case. Cache is, by definition, temporary.

    SketchySeaBeast,
    @SketchySeaBeast@lemmy.ca avatar

    The CDN to download the initial files were slow, the in game streaming was fine.

    Yes, ownership sucks these days, but I don’t know how they’d technically pull this off as well without using a remote server. As a philosophy, if we’re purchasing games the only real choice is GoG, anything else ends up with us locked into some server-based licensing system.

    DdCno1,

    How are you going to fit two petabytes of data into a 500 gigabyte install?

    helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    No one said anything about 2PB.

    DdCno1,

    That’s how big this game world is.

    helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    Where did that number come from?

    DdCno1,

    It’s mentioned here: flightsimulator.com/msfs2024-preorder-now-availab…

    ”Microsoft Flight Simulator (2020) already had over two petabytes of data on the cloud. That was the whole world data.

    helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    Ah well, that does make more sense then. I hope they have an offline mode as well.

    Also it seems like they’d be better off making it a game streaming service entirely and that would remove the need for all that bandwidth…

    DdCno1,

    FS 2020 had an offline mode. I don’t see why this one wouldn’t have one as well. It’s either using procedurally generated or cached data.

    You can not get the same visual fidelity and low latency with game streaming. I’ve tried nearly every service there is (going as far back as OnLive - remember that one?) and they are all extremely subpar, including Microsoft’s own game streaming service.

    FS 2020 is available for streaming, by the way, and FS 2024 is likely going to be as well. You’re only getting the console version though. Officially, the resolution is “up to” 1080p, but due to extremely heavy compression, it looks far worse than that. It’s comparable to 720p at best, which means that nearly all fine detail is lost behind huge compression artifacts. On anything larger than a smartphone screen, it looks horrible. That’s on top of connection issues and waiting times that are still plaguing this service.

    helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    You can not get the same visual fidelity and low latency with game streaming

    But…that’s what you’re doing? Streaming the game at 180mbps…

    You’re just keeping some of the data local (presumably “the game” itself and probably plane models and cabins) and streaming the terrain data.

    they are all extremely subpar, including Microsoft’s own game streaming service.

    That sounds like a great reason not to buy this game.

    DdCno1,

    But…that’s what you’re doing? Streaming the game at 180mbps…

    No. Map and weather data is being streamed, cached on your SSD and then the game engine loads it from there into RAM and uses it in combination with other locally stored data and locally performed physics calculation to render the game on your machine. You get an uncompressed, high quality image and low-latency input, freshly baked by your graphics card for your eyes only. At 1080p and 60 fps, that’s already 2.98 Gbit/s per second generated by your GPU and sent to the screen as is. At 1440p, we are at 5.31 Gbit/s and at 4K, 11.94 Gbit/s. DisplayPort can handle up to 20 Gbit/s per lane and use up to four lanes, by the way.

    Xbox Cloud Streaming only uses up to 20 Mbit/s (and that’s very optimistic). At the advertised 1080p, this means that only 6.7% as much data as generated on the server is reaching your screen.

    The problem with game streaming is that in order to limit latency, they have to compress the image and send it very quickly, 60 times per second, which means they have just 16.7 milliseconds for each frame - and do this for potentially millions of users at the same time. This cannot physically be done at any decent level of quality. It is far easier to send much larger amounts of map data that is not time critical: It doesn’t matter if it’s even a few seconds late on your machine, since the game engine will render something with the data it already has. At worst, you get some building or terrain pop-in, whereas if even a single of the 60 frames required for direct game streaming is being dropped, you’ll immediately notice it as stuttering.

    That sounds like a great reason not to buy this game.

    If you don’t have the hardware to play this game locally, then I would not recommend it. If you have - and a base Xbox Series S is enough for a reasonable experience, which costs just 300 bucks new or about half as much used - then there is no reason for using the streaming service, unless you absolutely have to play it on your phone at work.

    helenslunch,
    @helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

    I don’t understand any of this. I’ll have to take your word for it. Thanks for the explanation.

    taanegl, do gaming w Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 sucks up to 180 Mb/s of internet bandwidth while in flight — equivalent to 81GB of data per hour

    At that point, people were curious and decided to go deeper into the engine. Low and behold, it’s a game engine, based entirely on telemetry technology.

    JackbyDev,

    Lo* and behold. 💜 Lo is an old time word for listen.

    taanegl,

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • JackbyDev,

    I put a heart to make my intentions not seem mean.

    GammaGames,

    I thought it was a fun comment, didn’t come across as negative at all. Also TIL!

    JackbyDev,

    🥹

    davehtaylor,

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • taanegl,

    Damn, the incantation failed.

    Time to bring out the billy goat.

    Kissaki, do gaming w Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 sucks up to 180 Mb/s of internet bandwidth while in flight — equivalent to 81GB of data per hour

    Is that what the pilot calls “streaming through the cloud”?

    Kissaki, do gaming w Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 sucks up to 180 Mb/s of internet bandwidth while in flight — equivalent to 81GB of data per hour

    Simulating data in flight. Makes sense.

    kurcatovium, do gaming w Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 sucks up to 180 Mb/s of internet bandwidth while in flight — equivalent to 81GB of data per hour

    Checkmate! I don’t even have 180 mbps internet lane. Deal with it Microsoft!

    /s

    andyburke, do gaming w Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 sucks up to 180 Mb/s of internet bandwidth while in flight — equivalent to 81GB of data per hour
    @andyburke@fedia.io avatar

    Fuck this sim they said they would never make because 2020 was supposed to just be a live service.

    Plus, they didn't deliver on tons of promised things, like multicrew.

    Don't buy this, don't trust MS.

    fossphi,

    Wow, so just like Windows 10 to 11?

    PerogiBoi,
    @PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

    Also don’t buy this because like the previous flight simulator, they will restrict you to slow Microsoft servers so your first 150 hours in-game will actually just be downloading additional content at whatever speed Microsoft has limited their servers. 5MBPs? Maybe sometimes!

    abfarid, do games w Steven Spielberg is ‘a big PC Gamer’ — loves shooters, and insists on keyboard and mouse
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    Can we all please admit that we merely tolerate keyboard as a gaming input device because of the precision that mouse provides? (Except maybe some special cases, like RTS) It’s a glorified typewriter, and we (PC gamers) use it only because at some point, it was all that we had and we just got used to it. There must be something better than a panel of buttons.

    dan1101,

    Depends on the type of game.

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    As I said, except special occasions. But ultimately, it’s still not perfect for anything but typing-heavy games. I can probably imagine a better propriety input method even for RTS that would forgo finger gymnastics.

    PunchingWood,

    Gaming sticks (and weird ass abominations like trackball mice) were quite popular for some time during late 90s and early 00s, but now they’re mostly limited to certain games like flight/space games and usually part of a HOTAS setup.

    What I miss on keyboard & mouse setups is any form of analogue input, usually best for driving in games and walking faster/slower etc. But nothing is stopping me from just plugging in any controller and it’ll usually work on PC just fine.

    For everything else I simply prefer keyboard anyway, many more buttons and combinations that controllers often lack. Lots of controller supported games these days need ways around having too many buttons by adding modifiers or having to use select-wheels and what not.

    Hell I’d even go as far as adding a Stream Deck to my setup (I don’t even stream), just to have another panel of (configurable) buttons to use for various games and stuff.

    TrousersMcPants,

    You can technically get analog keyboard switches for your WASD movement and such, but afaik it’d be quite expensive and require a fairly customized keyboard to pull off. But it can be done!

    Also I love having extra mouse buttons for all my modifiers. I use mine in WoW to access all my hotbars without moving my hand to press any modifier keys on the keyboard, really nice setup.

    PunchingWood,

    Yeah I thought about trying an analogue keyboard but I don’t think I’ll enjoy how those keys would work, just doesn’t feel natural on a keyboard.

    I also recently got a mouse with 12 buttons, specifically for WoW at the time lol. I have whole grid set up for just using those buttons. So many more (easy) keybinds opened up because of that.

    Kushan,
    @Kushan@lemmy.world avatar

    Yup I’m with you here. I love KBM and it’s my preferred way to play for most games, but when it comes to driving I’d much prefer a controller with analogue triggers and a stick (unless it’s a sim racer, in which case a wheel of course) for that extra precision.

    Unfortunately I can’t think of a good design to give that level of control to just one hand. Analogue keys are a thing but they sound awful, nowhere near enough precision due to the short travel of them.

    toynbee,

    On PC, I game exclusively with trackballs and have since the nineties. I’ve never not been given the side eye when someone found out that’s how I play.

    When was this magical time during which they were popular?

    PunchingWood,

    I remember a friend had one of those things, it was some experience lol

    I think one of my uncles and one of my teachers had one too, but it’s been like 24 years or so.

    They were also featured heavily on just about every computer expo we went to during that time, I think it was a pretty short period that they were marketed but I remember seeing them everywhere for that time. Like it was the hype at the moment, like how 3D screens and VR had been hyped really hard for a short while and then just died down kinda quickly.

    toynbee,

    Well, fair enough that you were exposed to them. I didn’t have a lot of friends, especially not those even remotely into any kind of tech, as a kid; I think I first heard of trackballs from a programming teacher in about 1996 and bought one to try out of curiosity. Ever since then I’ve used one whenever it was an option.

    I’ve even mostly used the same model. If you look in my comment history, you can see I recently mentioned that most of what I use is Kensington Orbits. I’ve tried other models, but they don’t work for me.

    The one PC gaming exception for me is Minecraft. In that game you have to right-click a lot (as I’m sure you know) and I guess I haven’t developed the muscles for that because it makes my wrist very tired very quickly. Still, I play a lot of FPS games and have no problem holding the right click for zoom and such; only quick, repetitive right-clicking causes problems for me.

    edit: To address your original comment, I have one friend who uses a trackball at work but a regular mouse for anything else. Other than that, I rarely meet anyone who has even heard of them, let alone used them, let alone consistently done so.

    PunchingWood,

    I guess everyone can develop a device preference.

    I remember playing Red Alert on 90s Toshiba Satellite Pro laptops with the cursor nipple in the middle of the keyboard, I got pretty good at using the nipple (lmao). But they didn’t really come back on newer laptop models after that.

    Same seemed to happen with most trackball hype, although I knew they were still around. I don’t recall if it was one with the ball on top or on the left side, all I remember not being able to ever scroll in the direction I needed because the angle was always off for me.

    Another thing from that time that stuck with me is that gaming joysticks were more common. I had one for some favorite games, but because I used it so much I am now crippled with the “Invert Y” syndrome. Whenever I play games with controllers I will have to invert the Y axis, because that’s what makes most sense based on the joysticks from back then.

    scorp,
    @scorp@lemmy.ml avatar

    speak for yourself. my Keyboard(s) tolerated me when i got hyperfocused during a gaming session not the other way around.

    FeelzGoodMan420, (edited )

    Huh? On non-gamepad games (i.e. Dark Souls is an example of a gamepad game) Keyboard is completely fine. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    This is the first time in my life I’ve ever heard this opinion lol.

    tfw_no_toiletpaper,

    no-gamepad games

    i.e. dark souls

    Who in their right mind plays souls games or any action RPG with mouse / keyboard?? You cannot even play demon souls with a mouse. A mouse is for aiming in shooters and the like.

    FeelzGoodMan420, (edited )

    You misread my comment. I’m saying Dark Souls is an example of a gamepad game. I updated the comment for clarity. I see how it wasn’t clear, my bad.

    tfw_no_toiletpaper,

    Oh nvm yes I misread

    IronKrill,
    @IronKrill@lemmy.ca avatar

    Can you not? I’ve played various third person combat games (are they all part of “hack n slash”?) with a mouse just fine. I do prefer controller, but there’s nothing wrong with using a kb/mouse in most of those games. Is Dark Souls control scheme really that bad?

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    Notice, that I didn’t say it’s impossible to use KB for gaming, I just said (or implied) that it’s not optimal. It’s not good, it’s just what we have and what we are used to, and there’s a lot of room for improvement. And I say this as a PC gamer of 30+ years. So much so that when I lay my hand on a keyboard it automatically assumes the WASD position, even if I intend to type.

    And I’m glad that I brought this perspective to your attention, because we often don’t question what we are used to since childhood. Hopefully, these discussions will eventually bring us something better, that we have not yet thought of.

    FeelzGoodMan420,

    It is optimal though. I don’t understand why you are saying it’s not? Aiming with a mouse is 9 million % more effective than thumbsticks. Like that’s reality. If you had two equal skilled teams, one on controllers, and one on kb/m (and it’s a first person shooter), the kb/m gang will win like 99% of the time just based on that.

    You’re just taking your own opinion about kb/m and assuming that it applies to the masses. It doesn’t. Vast majority of people would agree with me. Kb/m is better for non-controller games.

    IronKrill,
    @IronKrill@lemmy.ca avatar

    Per their original comment, they aren’t saying mouse is bad. Their problem is with the keyboard.

    … we merely tolerate keyboard as a gaming input device because of the precision that mouse provides

    Why are you bringing up the mouse again?

    FeelzGoodMan420,

    I also disagree with the keyboard comment. I see no issue with it and I don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse.

    gaylord_fartmaster,

    A lack of analog controls is definitely an issue. Having digital buttons on keys that are either 100% on or off loses a ton of fine control.

    Playing GTA and need to make a slight left while driving? On a gamepad you just slightly tilt the stick left to make a smooth turn. On keyboard you have to do a bunch of short little taps on A (and D when you inevitably oversteer) to stop yourself from jerking the wheel left.

    I remember really wanting a Logitech G13 when they came out but I could never justify spending the money on one.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/0ccba38a-fd78-4281-b76e-d48f09f38b7a.jpeg

    GoodEye8,

    For movement I would take something like a HOTAS over keyboard. For example in games with multiple movement speeds finding the right speed is rather cumbersome on keyboard because the key press is an on/off and not a scale.

    Similarly on keyboard movement is restricted to 8 directions. If you need to move in some other direction most people actually use a mouse to compensate for the lack of movement options because it’s too cumbersome with a keyboard.

    There are benefits to using keyboards but there are places where you can use something better. Analogue input simply gives better movement options.

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    You’re missing my point and just sticking to the usual false dichotomy of KBM vs. gamepads. I’m saying, we should come up with something better than a device designed for entering text, and I didn’t even criticize mice. Keyboard isn’t and can’t be “optimal” gaming device because that’s not its purpose, and it’s not what it was optimized for. Games just adapted to accommodate the devices already included with every PC, with varying degrees of success. That is just a fact, not an opinion. Keyboards weren’t made for playing games, we just adapted to using them, therefore they aren’t optimal.

    Which means that we are yet to develop the optimal device for gaming to use in conjunction with the mouse, one that was designed specifically for that purpose. Just because you “don’t know what else would be better when combined with the mouse” (quote from your other comment) it doesn’t mean that nobody can design something better.

    Yes, controller are purpose built for gaming, and they are definitely far superior in a lot of game genres. But mouse still is better for precision control, be it aiming a gun or selecting a unit. And keyboard is holding it back, because it’s just an unoptimized row of buttons.

    FeelzGoodMan420,

    Okay. Well pitch something better then. I’m genuinely interested. I’m not trying to be aggressive.

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    I didn’t set a goal to pitch something better, I just pointed the fact that we use unoptimized hardware and hopefully somebody is working on something better.

    FeelzGoodMan420,

    What do you imagine being better though? Like just in general? Some sort of gamepad that has directionals that you use in your left hand while you use the mouse with your right? Something totally different? Like what else is there?

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    In the very least, something more rounded and ergonomic than a row of buttons, something that lays out the buttons in such a way that they are more easily reachable without moving or contorting your hand. Fewer buttons for the pinky, more buttons for the thumb, which is now pretty much only used to hit spacebar. Maybe a big analog stick that sits under your palm, so you can tilt your entire hand to move (IDK how how useful that would be, but you wanted me to imagine something), leaving your fingers free to perform other actions.

    VOwOxel,

    There are ergonomic keyboards for those that want them. Look up something like the “Glove80” Keyboard.

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    Having an ergonomic keyboard is a step in the right direction, but it’s still a device for entering text.

    VOwOxel,

    Which is a good thing, I think. The good thing about keyboards is that they can control (to various degrees of efficiency) everything going on on a computer. It’s an allrounder and imo does many things well. I’m not denying that there may be better ways to play games (although some outright require a kb, e.g. games with a text chat), but games supporting keyboards is good and natural considering their allrounder nature.

    NoForwardslashS,

    Power Glove and Mouse obviously

    FeelzGoodMan420,

    Might as well throw in a full body haptic feedback suit with a built in fleshlight. In all seriousness idk wtf I’m even arguing about anymore in this thread. Keyboard is totally fine.

    trashgirlfriend,

    For precise inputs keyboards are really good, stuff like tactical shooters, a lot of custom fighting game controllers are basically just paired down keyboards too.

    Keyboards are pretty fucking cool, analog sticks are easy to use and good if you need the 360 degree movement, but otherwise keyboards all the way.

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    You’re misinterpreting my point. We can make a device with precise inputs that isn’t a flat slab of buttons, we just haven’t yet. This is not a gamepad vs. KBM argument.

    trashgirlfriend,

    that’s a hitbox, you’re talking about a hitbox

    which is just a slab with less buttons on it

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    As you mentioned, it’s still a slab, that is only good for a few genres of games. Basically, a flat controller without the analog sticks, which is opposite of ergonomic, and you don’t use that with a mouse.

    copd,

    Although his opinion is unpopular and you may have not of heard of it, that fact has precisely zero to do with its truthfulness and validity

    “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses” - Henry Ford

    Assman,
    @Assman@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Skill issue

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    I aspire to git gud one day.

    TrousersMcPants,

    Nah, mouse and keyboard is great for a lot of things. Strategy games, most MMORPGs. Heck even fighting games are actually really nice on a keyboard if you can get used to it, you can do very complicated movements by just pressing a few buttons, the actual analog input is actually completely unutilized in most fighting games anyway.

    Having such a precise control over the buttons you press as well as having such a large amount of them is really important to a lot of games. And honestly even if we made a unique controller to replicate this precise input, we would still end up using a keyboard anyway because you can actually type messages on it, too.

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    I specifically mentioned those special cases. It’s obviously nearly impossible to play RTS and MMORPGs with a controller effectively. And of course another reason we use keyboards is that some games are just text input/typing-heavy, it would be mighty inconvenient switching to and from another input method very often.

    But I also think that it’s easy to argue the point that the device designed with the sole purpose of entering text is not optimal for navigating characters in 2D/3D space. Something better just hasn’t come along yet or it hasn’t been popularized enough. An improved mouse design could also offload a lot of inputs from the kb hand, like those MMORPG mice with macro buttons. There’s definitely room for improvement.

    TrousersMcPants,

    Idk, anything that does what a keyboard does for gaming will basically just end up being a keyboard honestly. If you want a set of easily accessible, customizable buttons for a videogame, what better than just a whole board filled with them really. I think that KBM has stuck around so long is that it is just a great way to play a lot of games.

    My main point is just that I don’t think a lot of people are “tolerating” keyboard controls like you initially said.

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    I think it stuck around because the primary purpose of a computer is still information handling, and thus almost all of them require a keyboard. And since keyboard is always included and is “good enough” people just kept using what was available. History is littered with cases where something stuck merely because it was good enough and easily available. The QWERTY layout itself is a good example. There are layouts that are much better, yet 99% of the keyboards still use it. Because alt layout keyboards are scarce and using them requires relearning. All while QWERTY is good enough.

    ByteOnBikes,

    Fighting games with a keyboard? Scary stuff.

    TrousersMcPants,

    It works surprisingly well, most 2D fighting games are just doing 8 directional movement anyway, so it can make a lot of inputs easier actually

    variants,

    Azeron cyborg is really nice but takes a bit to setup you keybinds for each game since even between fps games they can’t decide what key opens a door.

    On the azeron your thumb has a joystick which is w a s d then that leaves all your other fingers with multiple keys each so you don’t really have to move your hand around that much. Still need a keyboard around for typing though in chat or a game where you name stuff

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    Yes! That’s the kind of stuff I hope goes mainstream and supported more. Something purpose-built not for typing, but for gaming.

    And I’m sure it would be quite comfortable to have a TKL (or some other compact KB) between that and a mouse and switch between inputs when necessary.

    glimse,

    I used to play with a guy who was awesome with a mouse in his right hand and a controller in his left. Pretty cool setup. I tried it out and it wasn’t for me

    ByteOnBikes,

    My wife does this because shes purely a M+K player and one game, she was sucking st. So she plugged in one of my controllers and moved with the controller, but looked with the mouse.

    glimse,

    I’m almost entirely mouse/keyboard but some games are just better with controllers…Rocket League, MGS, Yakuza…couldn’t imagine enjoying them without it.

    Honytawk,

    True, depending on the game of course.

    I’ve been thinking of a mouse / controller hybrid solution being the ultimate gaming peripheral. Joystick to walk and drive, mouse to aim. Should easily hold its own in PC shooters and console racers.

    MeatsOfRage,

    As I get older I’ve grown to just appreciate comfort over precision. I don’t play competitive multiplayer, in fact the only multiplayer I play is COD zombies with some buddies once a week. And we all suck anyways so we’re just having a laugh. I’d much rather just lean back in my chair with a controller.

    ByteOnBikes,

    As a longtime PC gamer, Games like Dark Souls was impossible for me to play with a keyboard. But I kept watching my friends play it and really liked it a lot. Got one of those discount Xbox controller knockoffs and got pretty good with the game using a controller.

    When the Steamdeck came around, I felt right at home with a controller.

    It’s shifted dramatically where 90% of games, I’m playing controller. But still can’t play FPSes with one. (Even though I got pretty good with Halo back in the day)

    circuitfarmer,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    Not sure on that one.

    I’m one of the very few people who loves the Steam Controller. If given an option between KBM and Steam Controller, I generally do the latter. The right pad as mouse isn’t as accurate as a mouse, but damned if it isn’t way more comfy from the couch.

    I guess what I’m saying is: I’d suggest it is less about KBM and more about what games you play, where you play them, and probably whether or not you play multiplayer.

    IronKrill,
    @IronKrill@lemmy.ca avatar

    I’m not sure I agree with “tolerating” keyboard. I quite like it over a joystick! The benefit in complex games (like RTS, as you mention) is obvious, but even in most 3D games I prefer the instant reaction and definite axis of WASD over the 360° analog inputs of a joystick. There are not many times I would rather move at 2° forwards-right at a ramping 95% speed instead of simply moving forwards at 100% instantly. As for racing or other games that require precise analog inputs, I would generally prefer something that is bigger than my thumb i.e a racing wheel.

    That isn’t to say I completely disagree, though! The ergonomics are a clear disadvantage. Most keyboards are not ergonomic for typing, let alone gaming. It would be fantastic to see more gaming-specialised keypad devices other than that one Razor one and whatever Chinese Amazon specials are kicking around. But the keypad format is not something I would want to forego as any FPS I play for more than 20 hours I usually have the entire left half of the keyboard bound to something for quick access.

    I upvoted you because this is a great discussion point. :)

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    Yeah, I’m not strictly comparing KBM vs. gamepad. As you mentioned, keyboards are just not ergonomic, and that’s what I was basically saying. So you understood my point precisely, I, too, want to see more options.

    Mac,

    You could configure a thumbstick to operate how you want whereas with a board you can never have fully porpotional control.
    On top of that, most controllers have directional pads.

    Mac,

    So true. I distinctly remember instances while playing GTAV with controller in the left hand and mouse in the right. lol
    Would love to find a dedicated peripheral that i liked to be used similarly.

    Alk,

    Game pads that use keyboard keys with custom switches and unique form factors are where I think we’re heading. Like the razer tartarus v2, which I have. It is great for gaming, better than a standard keyboard that uses identical switches, but still not ideal. It is similar enough to the layout of a keyboard that finger positioning can be the same and the learning curve is smooth.

    It’s closer to your “ideal” but not there yet. And I completely agree that we need to go in that direction.

    GoodEye8,

    There are some exceptions but I generally agree. The keyboard isn’t anywhere as precise as an analogue stick. Ideally I would use something like HOTAS for movement and mouse for aiming.

    Blaster_M,

    The irony is, the top world record runs on Trackmania (a not-a-hot-wheels track time trial driving game) tracks are done by keyboard drivers. Driving a high performance car on a crazy, loop-de-loopy jumps and bumps and speed boosters tracks is quickest with … WASD controls.

    abfarid,
    @abfarid@startrek.website avatar

    It’s not really that ironic. Something more ergonomic with the same tactile short travel buttons would’ve worked even better, you can just also do it with a keyboard, albeit not as comfortably.

    Kolanaki, do games w Steven Spielberg is ‘a big PC Gamer’ — loves shooters, and insists on keyboard and mouse
    !deleted6508 avatar

    How come Steven Spielberg hasn’t done a video game movie? I envision a heartwarming tale of a young boy befriending a Strogg from Quake by giving it Reece’s Pieces.

    vulgarcynic,
    @vulgarcynic@sh.itjust.works avatar

    is this sarcasm? lol he did Ready Player One. the ultimate video game movie!

    BeMoreCareful,

    It was a terrible movie, and the book wasn’t much better.

    Kolanaki,
    !deleted6508 avatar

    I mean… It’s about video games, kinda. But I wouldn’t call it a video game movie considering it’s based on a book not a video game lol

    I mean like why hasn’t he done something like Borderlands? Surely he would have done a better job than Eli Roth even with a bad script.

    ms_lane,

    He knows he can’t top the master, Uwe Boll

    Kolanaki,
    !deleted6508 avatar

    I was shocked to find his highest rated movie was Postal. Maybe not that shocked, since it’s actually kinda good. At least, strictly as a comedy; didn’t follow the game at all. But it’s not like the game has a real story, either lol

    BruceTwarzen,

    Also one of the worst

    dual_sport_dork, do games w DOOM can now run on a quantum computer with Quandoom port — seminal FPS blood and gore mixed with spooky action
    @dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar
    • Rather, a program superficially imitating the first level of Doom is able to run on a simulator of a quantum computer.

    Not to diminish this accomplishment, but based on the level geometry on display there this is obviously a bespoke but very basic 3D-ish engine, extremely simplified, built from the ground up to do this and is not an actual source port of Doom before anybody gets too excited.

    While it’s amusing I don’t think it really serves to illustrate too well the actual exciting parts of what quantum computing is actually theoretically capable of. Regular old boring Turing-compatible binary computers are already perfectly capable of running Doom already. ^[citation^ ^needed]^

    Cocodapuf,

    So, as far as I can tell, the primary difference with this version of the game is that it uses question registers?

    What does that mean, functionally?

    Like how does that affect the software? How would the software run on an actual quantum computer?

    whotookkarl, do games w Steven Spielberg is ‘a big PC Gamer’ — loves shooters, and insists on keyboard and mouse
    @whotookkarl@lemmy.world avatar

    I used to be kbm exclusive but there have been some pretty good controller improvements made over the years, things like hotkey layers in Skyrim UI mods or the final fantasy MMO giving dozens of unique hotkeys on a controller, and new hardware with back buttons and shoulder buttons that keep both thumbs on the thumbsticks. Can’t beat mouse for precision, but there are tradeoffs for that.

    telllos,

    I like playing shooter’s with m&k, str games too. I know for example in Apex, lot’s of pro players une a controller.

    But 3rd person games feel somehow much better with a controller. I’m not sure how uncharted, or HZD would play on Mouse and Keyboard.

    PieMePlenty,

    Mouse for aim, wii nunchuck for movement.

    uniquethrowagay,

    Steam Controller and Steam Deck converted me to controller. Trackpads and touch activated gyroscope are complete game changers. I still can’t play first person games with a thumbstick though.

    DarkCloud, do games w DOOM can now run on a quantum computer with Quandoom port — seminal FPS blood and gore mixed with spooky action

    …are we accidentally going to open a portal to hell by trying to get doom running on something it shouldn’t? Is that how it finally happens?

    That would be the Ultimate Doom. Real Doom too.

    BlueKey,
    @BlueKey@fedia.io avatar

    Porting Doom to run in real life.

    cm0002,
    @cm0002@lemmy.world avatar

    This is the way

    Naz,

    I’m sure people can handle a few alligators and mosquitos spilling out of the portal

    EvilBit,

    But what if Ron DeSantis steps through?

    cm0002,
    @cm0002@lemmy.world avatar
    cyberic,
    @cyberic@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    Can we close it before he steps back?

    EvilBit,

    Aww, Floridian?

    edgemaster72, (edited )
    @edgemaster72@lemmy.world avatar

    Just in case, we should test it in a safe, extremely remote environment. Mars should be far enough away.

    JusticeForPorygon, do games w DOOM can now run on a quantum computer with Quandoom port — seminal FPS blood and gore mixed with spooky action
    @JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world avatar

    If it can run on a microwave why wouldn’t it run in a fancy future computer?

    (Yes I know it’s more complicated than that)

    JDPoZ, do games w Steven Spielberg is ‘a big PC Gamer’ — loves shooters, and insists on keyboard and mouse
    @JDPoZ@lemmy.world avatar

    There used to be stories (not sure how many were true) of him going to events like E3, Tokyo Game Show, Gamescom, and other developer-centric game conventions.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/70c44ca4-0079-4a20-9618-726b130b61f2.jpeg

    He also was a key figure / contributor in some old school PC adventure games like Indiana Jones from waaaaay back in the day.

    Fedizen, do games w Steven Spielberg is ‘a big PC Gamer’ — loves shooters, and insists on keyboard and mouse

    This is one of like 5 celebrities I would vote for if running for president.

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