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MJBrune, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable

I’m 10 years into my games career and one of the main reasons I’m still in it is that I’ve worked for indie studios for most of my career.

I’ve worked rarely for AAA studios and they are soulless and long hours. It’s not fun, it’s not creative, it’s not about creating personal art. It’s about creating a product to make profits. They’re really fun games a lot of the time but they get there by limiting who can contribute to what.

An engineer trying to give feedback on design gets shut down. A lot of smaller studios are the opposite and people wear multiple hats daily. I love wearing multiple hats and it helps me understand my own art creation process.

Some folks in the industry as well only see this like a job not an expression of themselves through art. That’s fine but limits them to studios who only want workers not artists.

That said, the average has came up. About 10 years ago that average time in the industry was 5 years. Now it’s 7. People are finding the industry more and more stable but the industry does have a problem keeping juniors. I almost left the industry several times but as I got over 5 years I started to see a change in job offers. Lots more recruiters contacting me. At 10 years I’ve started to see a lot more people wanting to pay me for an hour talk. It becomes easier to stay in the industry as you gain experience but those first 5 years are really rough.

doleo, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable

Is any career sustainable anymore?

Thrashy, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable
@Thrashy@beehaw.org avatar

I work in architecture, a field that is also notorious for long hours, excessive crunch time, and mediocre pay. Real-time 3D graphics have started to become important to the design process over the last several years, and at a previous firm I met a 3D vis guy who’d transitioned into my industry from a job at a game developer, “because the hours and pay are so much better.” It boggled my mind that conditions could be so much worse in game dev that my own field would be an improvement.

TwilightVulpine,

Seems like any career that is commonly seen as a passion comes with an additional level of exploitation. Game developers and animators get a raw deal.

andrewrgross,

It’s also, imo, because it’s a relatively newer career. Nurses, teachers, mechanics all existed as industries before he decline of labor. I work in biotech, and people have these oblivious conversations on reddit that are like, “I have a masters but can’t find a job with any stability or a living wage in my city. What am I doing wrong?”

And each time I explain that what they’re doing wrong is trying to get paid under late stage capitalism in a high risk-high reward casino industry filled with foreign visa-holding indentured servants and no one who has ever heard of collective bargaining.

TwilightVulpine,

All those professions are badly in need of strong unions for sure.

regul,

Not to diminish your point because all fields should be unionized, but nurses and teachers are drastically underpaid and overworked, despite many of them having unions.

Dominic, (edited )

But those unions are negotiating against employers who have immense market power. State governments essentially have the last word on teachers’ salaries, and a lot of the country has consolidated to the point where there are only 1-3 major hospital networks in any area.

Without the ability to switch employers for better pay, the unions are the only way that those professions have to improve their pay and working conditions. (This may explain why travel nurses get much better pay than most nurses.)

regul,

Travel nurses are often used as scabs or to avoid hiring a full-time unionized employee.

Thrashy,
@Thrashy@beehaw.org avatar

Yeah, lab work has the cultural cachet of STEM and knowledge work, but looks a lot more like manual labor in practice. One of the lab planners at my current employer switched careers after getting her master’s because pipetting thousands upon thousands of well plates for her research gave her severe repetitive stress injuries that made it unbearable to continue working in the lab.

Biotech has another problem, in that the VC money --and therefore the job market – is concentrated in a small number of HCOL metros. A friend of mine founded a startup out here in the Midwest, and he struggles to attract enough funding to retain staff who are constantly being lured away to the coasts by better-funded firms offering better pay, even though that money wouldn’t go nearly as far in a place like SF or Boston compared to Kansas City.

regul,

The Missouri state government is a crucial piece of the puzzle there.

Thrashy,
@Thrashy@beehaw.org avatar

He’s on the Kansas side, which for all its own foibles is at least not Missouri.

acastcandream, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable

I was considering making the jump from film and television to the video game industry until a year or two ago. I am really passionate about video games, and I really think there’s a lane for me. Unfortunately, after reading so many horrible stories about crunch culture and learning just how demanding the industry can be (even as somebody who worked on some pretty grueling Hollywood sets) I decided not to go that route. It still makes me upset to think about. I just feel like the industry is so terrible it’d be irresponsible and unfair to my family to go down that route. Reading Significant Zero really put the last nail in the coffin for me on that dream, even though it wasn’t the intention of the book. 

comicallycluttered, (edited )

I know it’s not much, but I hope that if you don’t already, you find some time for yourself to just make games for the fun of it.

Not if you’re already dealing with overwork stress, but if you have free time that you’d like to spend on something. No one has to play them or you could do game jams (even though that’s inherently crunch, it’s the choice of the dev rather than their boss and more of a self-imposed limitation) or do otherwise random stuff and just let people muck about with whatever you’ve created. No pressure, no deadlines, no expectations.

And since you know already know how production in general works, you’re well aware of the iterative process and won’t fall into the trap of “why is this taking so long and why can’t my graphics be as good as GTA V” or whatever, which a lot of new developers (and programmers and pretty much everyone) encounter.

acastcandream,

It would be nice. I just need structure and it’s hard to find structure when I can only do it during my little free time i have around my toddlers :/

It would need to at least partially pay the bills to be viable.

I really appreciate the encouragement, by the way. It’s tempting!

jordanlund, do gaming w New Survey Reveals That Many Game Developers Consider Their Career Unsustainable
!deleted7836 avatar

"Oh? You hate your job? There’s a support group for that, it’s called ‘Everybody’, we meet at the bar!"

  • Drew Carey
potterman28wxcv,

Video games devs have it much worse than other developers though

520,

Cant blame game devs at all. Their working conditions take the absolute piss. It's sweatshop conditions compared to other types of tech work.

acastcandream,

Crunch culture stories are horrifying to read

BudgieMania,

A 100%, some of the things that you hear from the industry are crazy. If you offered me twice my current salary to be a developer in the AAA videogame industry, I wouldn't take it.

RubiksIsocahedron,

And no employer out of the industry will take you seriously once you’ve worked.

potterman28wxcv,

Do you know why is that so?

520, (edited )

Not a game developer, but one aspect is that developers outside of the gaming industry function VERY differently to the point where there is little in the way of transferable knowledge.

For example, most games are made in C/C++ because performance is a serious concern, but management will absolutely shit themselves if you try to make a web service in that language due to security concerns. The only language with any serious overlap is C#, as that is the scripting language used in Unreal Engine and Unity.

Some app developers use game engines for non-game apps (eg: Duolingo uses Unity) but that's about it.

potterman28wxcv,

I understand that video games dev and Web dev does not overlap but the developer field is more vast than just Web. For example embedded development uses a lot of C/C++ so knowledge would be transferable there.

I would also say that even though the engines or framework is not the same, surely there are human skills that can be transferred like managing a project, solving problems, algorithms, performance analytics and debugging.

But that’s only my theory and I have no experience on switching field like that

520,

You've got a very valid point with embedded devices. Although there are some big differences in that software for embedded devices typically also act as the operating system, something games stopped doing years ago.

For everything else you mentioned, you're mostly correct but there are complications. The problem is, it can be hard to sell those skills at an interview.

RubiksIsocahedron,

Yeah, embedded is exactly where I’m trying to transfer to, but good luck getting embedded jobs in Los Angeles that aren’t military or otherwise require a background check.

RobMyBot,

Man, the Drew Carey show was great.

state_electrician,

I heard it from George Carlin.

Lord_Logjam, do xbox w Larian Studios Talks About When to Expect Baldur's Gate 3's Release on Xbox - IGN

Excellent! I’m saving my MS points for this one.

squid, do gaming w CD Projekt Details Cyberpunk 2077's Revamped Police System Coming Alongside Phantom Liberty - IGN

I’m pissed that they’re not adding in an interactive rail system. The police suck, I’m surprised they even had them in the base game, shameful

Kaldo,
@Kaldo@kbin.social avatar

interactive rail system

The what now? What is that and how would it improve the game?

wolfshadowheart,
@wolfshadowheart@kbin.social avatar

There's a mod that adds a metro system. The on-rail trains present throughout the city.

I'd shift my version of that complaint more toward "post-game doesn't let me be a passenger". Delamain quests, side quests, main quest complete? Congratulations, you are officially the only driver left in Night City. Sitting and watching in the passenger seat is no more!

Well, not with the Metro mod :D

AlternativeEmphasis, do gaming w Cyberpunk 2077 Only Getting One Expansion Was a 'Technological Decision', CD Projekt Red Says - IGN

Yeah I am hoping they overhaul or embrace a new engine because that is what apparently killed mutliplayer for Cyberpunk. I dream of playing as trauma team and extracting patients.

SaltySalamander,
@SaltySalamander@kbin.social avatar

They're moving to Unreal Engine 5.

AlternativeEmphasis,

I'm not big on the homogenising into unreal 5 but if it works well for them I'm all for it.

Hypx,
@Hypx@kbin.social avatar

UE5 is nowhere near ready if Aveum is anything to go by. Let's hope UE5 gets way better or it will spell disaster for a lot of companies.

daniyyel, do xbox w Larian Studios Talks About When to Expect Baldur's Gate 3's Release on Xbox - IGN

To save everyone a click:

[Baldur’s Gate 3] will also be out on Xbox before the end of 2023. (…) “It’s 2023. And 2023 is narrowing, so it’s already pretty precise in my book. Between September and November… So, as fast as we can honestly,” Vincke said.

AlexanderTheGreat,
@AlexanderTheGreat@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks.

sure, (edited ) do games w Cyberpunk 2077 Only Getting One Expansion Was a 'Technological Decision', CD Projekt Red Says

Makes sense since they are moving away from the RED Engine for future releases. Only way I could see them spending more time with Cyberpunk was if the launch hadn’t been so rough (to say the least).

Potatos_are_not_friends, do xbox w CD Projekt: 'Big Part' of Cyberpunk Team Moving to The Witcher 4 After Phantom Liberty Launch - IGN

Ign has a history of non-stories.

AlexanderTheGreat,
@AlexanderTheGreat@lemmy.world avatar

I’m starting to notice that.

DoucheBagMcSwag, do gaming w Cyberpunk 2077 Only Getting One Expansion Was a 'Technological Decision', CD Projekt Red Says - IGN

Essentially supporting PS4 and Xbox One was the reason

TwilightVulpine, (edited )

Nah, if they actually got it into production as they started to make teasers for it, they'd likely get some version of it working for PS4 and Xbox One. The first teaser for it was released on 2013, but development only started on 2016. I'd scratch it to poor management more than anything. Sony managed to keep releasing pretty impressive games on the PS4.

It also comes to mind that the versions on PS5 and XSX weren't even the "next gen" versions proper, they were the ones for the previous consoles that just happened to run better on newer hardware. The proper next gen update only came months later.

MJBrune, do gaming w Cyberpunk 2077 Only Getting One Expansion Was a 'Technological Decision', CD Projekt Red Says - IGN

I’ve worked with Unreal Engine 4 since 2014. I was a part of games that got the engine early. I adopted Unreal 5 last year when it was reasonable to do so. It’s honestly one of, if not the most powerful game engine out there. It has its own set of issues of course. A lot of people use its features without regard to their proper usage or pitfalls of using them. It’s also not an engine that caters to small indie developers. Every engine has its flaws. That said I’ve constantly watched as large indies to AAA studios switch to unreal over my career. It’s probably the best engine out there for those studios. It’s good to see major studios dropping their clearly buggy engines and being able to put out better products.

That all said, boy that 5% to Epic is making them a lot of money. I’m really hoping in a few years that Godot Engine will really start to compete but even talking with one of the major engine contributors: “godot lacks people who know what they’re doing.” I also see this in a lot of engine issues and poor architecture choices. It’s disappointing to see someone so close to the project confirm. Unreal needs a strong competitor though, something ideally open sourced.

Blamemeta, do games w Cyberpunk 2077 Only Getting One Expansion Was a 'Technological Decision', CD Projekt Red Says

The game can only support one expansion? Wtf?

tiwenty,

You should have read the few lines of the article: it’s not a technological limit, they didn’t want to continue working on RED engine projects when they are shifting to Unreal.

citrusface, do xbox w CD Projekt: 'Big Part' of Cyberpunk Team Moving to The Witcher 4 After Phantom Liberty Launch - IGN

So you mean companies move the majority of their employees to other projects once the majority of the work is finished with the current project they are working on? Wow.

BillyZane,

That’s wild, let’s write a whole article about it. I’m definitely not complaining, but I thought the Witcher 3 was supposed to be the last Witcher game?

philycheezestake,

It was until it sold super well

hogart,
@hogart@feddit.nu avatar

Always saying it’s the last and everyone wants to play the last. It’s smart but gets old.

sebinspace,

/s

Think you dropped this.

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