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lmorchard, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks
@lmorchard@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

There are mods and cheats for this game already—and they even run on Linux. I turn 50 next month: though I’m still playing, I don’t have as much time for gaming as I used to and my reflexes aren’t what they were. I haven’t entirely removed the challenge with mods, but I feel no shame in tweaking this game to go easier on me and chew up less of my time as punishment for failure. I wish they had these as accessibility options built-in, but I’m fine with hacking it.

Anybody telling me I should “git gud” can pound sand: I’m already good at a bunch of things that get me a paycheck. I play games so I can relax and be terrible at something for fun. I’m certainly not playing for bragging rights.

Binturong, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

If you’re not able to commit to learning new strategies and using game mechanics to adapt to a game’s difficulty, and experience it as the developers intended, maybe it’s not for you. You can always watch a lore video or let’s play by other gamers to get the story if that’s the goal. This is Dark Souls 2 all over again, and I will personally say as someone who initially hated it, then gave it another chance; When you persist and triumph through grit, the game leaves a lasting impression and sense of accomplishment that you cheat yourself out of with a difficulty slider. That’s my favorite game in the series now, which is a deeply unpopular opinion, unsurprisingly.

This debate pops up every now and then and my opinion remains the same, there are plenty of games that aren’t meant to be a challenge to choose from. Part of games that are built to be a challenge is being able to reflect on how far you grew in the process, and people hate to hear it but ‘git gud’ is a real thing for those who believe things worth doing are hard.

DupaCycki, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks
@DupaCycki@lemmy.world avatar

In my opinion, the game is not particularly difficult. That is, if you’ve played through the original Hollow Knight. Which most people haven’t. In fact, it looks to me like a lot of people jumping on the hype don’t have too much experience with metroidvanias and soulslikes.

It’s a sequel, so intended to be played after the original. Why do we care what people who haven’t played the first game think?

pressanykeynow,

It’s difficult for me and I like it. I played Hollow Knight but didn’t finish it because it was too frustrating late game. Silksong to me is not frustrating because difficulty is mainly in figuring out how to pass the challenge, not doing reflexes which I don’t have. Most of the things I heard people complain about are solved by not rushing around with failing strategy but by thinking what the game recently suggested you to do for this particular encounter.

I actually think bringing in Hollow Knight experience aka “I already know everything” might be the reason why some people are frustrated. Like I heard a person who claimed to get all the achievements in HK complain that the second phase of one boss is terrible because they spent a hundred tries to dodge all the projectiles while you can just stand at the corner of the arena where non of them will hit you and use the tools this game gives you to win the fight.

Highlandcow, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

Sigh this shit again, if it’s the creators decision to have a game with finely tuned hard difficulty, so be it, that’s the creators creative decision and it should be respected

EnsignWashout,

I can accept stupid decisions. I don’t have to respect them.

chonglibloodsport,

Respect is a weird word. It seems to have 2 nearly opposite meanings (kind of like literally):

  1. Deep admiration for someone or something for their abilities, qualities, or achievements
  2. Due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others

So the first one implies that respect must be earned. The second implies that everyone must be respected by default (their due regard), thus respect is unearned.

Machinist,
@Machinist@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve always heard:

Respect is given, not earned.

Trust is earned and easy to lose.

Don’t confuse politeness with respect.

Highlandcow,

No you don’t, so you can either mod the game or not play the game right?

BilliamBoberts,

“death of the author” suggests some of the author’s intent is lost when a work is consumed by the audience.

Highlandcow,

To a degree I guess as the audiences own experiences will determine there own interpretation of the work, but in this situation I don’t think someone’s own experiences is going to impact too much the fact that silksong is hard as nails at points

MrFinnbean, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

The game screams passion and devs spend seven years making it the way they like it. It is also a dirt cheap.

Critisism is fair and everybody has right for opininion. My opinion is that people who are bitching about the boss runs can shove it up to theirs.

SlippiHUD, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks
@SlippiHUD@lemmy.world avatar

My biggest complaint is the sheer lack of rewards when I finish a fight. Give me any currency.

I have spent so much of this game broke, unable to buy the things I need to advance any side plots.

I’m currently stuck on the fight for the Music in the top left of the citadel. The double boss at the end is brutal. But because no enemy in that fight drops monster parts, I have to quit to grinding it to go grind more materials to build equipment, despite having slain 20+ enemies each run.

HollowNaught, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks
@HollowNaught@lemmy.world avatar

I’m about 10 hours into silksong and it’s amazing, don’t get me wrong. But the majority of the boss fights seem… cheap?

Like, their difficulty doesn’t come from their various attacks, or their environment. Instead, it usually comes from the fact that they do double damage, or the fact that they spam the same two attacks over and over way too quickly, or the fact that they can do the same add summon three times in a row and make what was a controllable situation practically impossible

Now, I’ve 112% the OG hollow knight and beaten true radiance, so I’m not against difficult boss fights. In fact I relish the feeling of learning their moves and patterns after every single death

But when the moves are “ram into wall. Then ram into wall again” it becomes incredibly annoying

majken, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

A high difficulty is not inherently good game design. Making a game more approachable through lower difficulty settings with additional checkpoints doesn’t make it worse for people who like a challenge. It just makes it enjoyable to more people.

Claiming it’s down to “artistic vision” just feels dishonest. You could claim Studio Ghibli movies should never be dubbed or subbed. You just have to learn Japanese to enjoy them, just don’t watch them if that’s not for you… but why? How is it a bad thing if more people can enjoy something?

Cup Head is a great example. It’s a fantastic game with an art style that younger kids love. But it’s too difficult for most kids, which doesn’t make the game better, it just locks them out from a game they’d otherwise love.

TORFdot0,

Is it not fair for the game developers’ artistic vision to not be accessible to all? Accessibility is nice, expands the potential audience, but if it compromises my artistic vision and I’m ok with giving up reach and money to preserve it, that doesn’t make my game bad or my vision invalid.

It would be ridiculous to call up the bar or the ama and complain to them that becoming a lawyer or a doctor is not accessible to all.

One last addition, adding control remapping, color options, and text to speech are true accessibility. Easy mode is fake accessibility

afaix,

Easy mode is not fake accessibility. Celeste has the correct idea in allowing players adjust the difficulty for accessibility purposes. Not everyone has the same reaction speed, same cognitive abilities, same eyesight. There are people who can only use one hand and that automatically makes reacting to attacks many times harder, should they be excluded from being able to enjoy the game because they are not physically capable enough for the boss fights? And boss fights are probably 5% of the game anyway!

EarlGrey, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

Runbacks are a lame attempt at artificially increasing difficulty. I’ll happily die on that hill. I love difficult games, but there is a fine line between frustration and difficult.

Elden Ring (at least all the bits I played through) and Sekiro absolutely nailed it. None of the run backs were particularly egregious, and it let me really focus on experimenting and learning to feel out the difficult fights. Celeste is another good example. I have dropped hours on some of the later levels trying to master them, but never once got frustrated.

Hollow Knight I never finished because I got stuck on a boss and the runback was just way too long and annoying. I loved everything else about the game and want to finish it eventually.

Edit: I think they have their place as “mods” that you could enable to increase difficulty, and i’d actually probably enjoy it that way. Just designing the game around them is where i draw the line.

Cybersteel,
@Cybersteel@lemmy.world avatar

To be fair, From has like many games to learn from that while Cherry only has HK. I’ll never forget the sheer pain of the Frigid Outskirts from Dark Souls 2.

Kinokoloko,

At least that’s an optional area. Now, the run back from pre-SotFS No Man’s Wharf? That was a pain.

Underwaterbob,

The run to Blue Smelter nearly gave me a coronary.

ZombiFrancis,

Although DS2 gave us a reprieve with despawning enemies eventually, making runbacks feel rather poignant when you’re walking an empty world.

Underwaterbob,

Yeah, I remember a few sad runbacks with populations looking pretty sparse…

Nikls94,

Unpopular opinion but I like boss runbacks.

To me it feels like “if you don’t survive the journey, you’re too weak for the boss itself” it brings me down and makes me calmer until I reach the boss.

syreus,

I like them because it forces you to try to salvage a fight instead of just conceding after a bad start. The time spent getting to the boss is investment you don’t want to waste.

I think this is really just an issue of the tools and abilities not being inherently linked to the related bosses.

FYI quickhop attacking is faster than ground combos and you can weave in the trio dagger throws when you are dodging away from close attacks. Also your attack will negate enemy attacks weapon hitbox(but you still have to dodge bodily contact). The poison tool upgrade is overbalanced and makes a lot of fights a joke.

mavu, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

Every game should have difficulty settings, the more, the better.
That goes for indi darlings too.

davad, (edited )

And all music should be under three minutes long. Every book should have page numbers. Photographers should have familiar subjects. Paintings should have a full explanation by the artist telling you exactly what they meant to communicate. /s

If the game isn’t for you, just move along. There are tons of games out there.

mavu,

are you aware of the meaning of the word “setting” in this context?
Just in case I can explain:
It means you can switch something from one behaviour or effect to another, basically giving you a choice of how something should work. So, adding a difficulty setting changes nothing about your experience of the game.

do you need more words to explain this simple thing?

I can try to use simple language and shorter sentences if you require it?

Siethron, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

I think it’s a great game for veterans who like challenges like myself.

But I have to call out team Cherry for their interviews: They said they wanted anyone to be able to pick up this as their first Hollow Knight game and just start playing… Sorry, but, bullshit. the difficulty ramp is too quick, double damage comes out to early and the boss fights get more challenging quickly. See the weaver for instance, a fight I’d place around the difficulty of Grimm, but there’s double damage and you probably only have 5 health.

Also they mentioned part of the game’s difficulty was due to Hornet’s competence and utility… Ghost is canonically a better fighter than Hornet, so by that logic they should have made the game easier (yes I’m being silly about this part).

Auth, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

I dont think there is any conversation to be had about an easy mode or boss runbacks. Any time this small dev team spends on an easy mode is time wasted IMO.

If its to hard you can play another game. I see this the same as people demanding a complex movie be changed to be easier to understand. Its just a dumb complaint and im sick of seeing these people flood every comment section of every slightly challenging game.

Feathercrown,

The difference between “I don’t like this” and “this is bad” is too often overlooked

thatKamGuy,

I’m ok with there being a conversation on this topic, even if the arguments devolve to ‘waaah’ vs. ‘git gud’.

Ultimately though, I agree that a small dev team shouldn’t have to focus on a game-mode outside their vision - and any such demand for an easy-mode or other additions can and should be left up to mod makers.

It’s a single-player game, so in the end how the individual user wants to play is how they should be able to play.

noxypaws, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks
@noxypaws@pawb.social avatar

is nobody going to define what “runbacks” are?

I’m guessing it’s something like when you lose to a boss you have to travel a senselessly difficult and long way back to the boss to try again?

That does sound annoying and I hate when I even have to sit through a cutscene on each retry of a boss…

simple,
@simple@piefed.social avatar

I'm guessing it's something like when you lose to a boss you have to travel a senselessly difficult and long way back to the boss to try again?

That's exactly it. The runbacks aren't too long in this game despite all the complaints, but some of them are tricky and can get annoying if you keep dying 10 seconds into a fight.

socsa,
@socsa@piefed.social avatar

So it's basically the standard platformer formula going back three or more decades?

Famko,

More like the Dark Souls formula of having to trek through heaps of enemies and traps to get back to the boss. Including the whole “lose all of your money on death” thing.

Armok_the_bunny,

I mean, there are some really bad runbacks, but yeah most of them are fine.

okamiueru,

How is it compared to HK?

This is the only thing I wanted to know from reviews, for whether or not to bother with Silksong. I love difficult boss fights, but cannot be arsed to spend more than half a minute doing a tedious chore in order to actually redo boss fights.

faint_marble_noise,

It is slightly worse then HK.

mic_check_one_two,

I’m guessing it’s something like when you lose to a boss you have to travel a senselessly difficult and long way back to the boss to try again?

Exactly. Lots of bosses don’t have convenient save points nearby, so you’re forced to walk back from the save point every time. And many of the treks are either long or just outright annoying (cheesy enemies, obstacle courses, etc). It’s like the 5 Minute Long Unskippable Cutscene’s more annoying older brother, because this unskippable cutscene requires actual gameplay and focus.

curiousaur,

Hot take here, but I don’t mind them. Exactly because they take focus. They tell me when it’s time for a break. If I’m not up for the runback, then I’m not up for aother attempt at the boss.

Pyr_Pressure,
@Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca avatar

Eh, make it optional. On hard difficulty make it a thing, medium difficulty allow it to be skipped.

curiousaur,

Why? If you can’t get through that, you aren’t going to beat the boss.

Pyr_Pressure,
@Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca avatar

I haven’t played silksong, but I’m just going off other games in the past for my experience.

If you make it through the hallway of meaningless denizens that just waste time and get to the boss, then die to the boss… Why waste time going through the meaningless denizens again to challenge the boss?

I can see it on higher difficulties when you need to make sure you get through the meaningless denizens perfectly in order to preserve your health and resources to have a better chance of defeating the boss.

But when you just want to experience the story on lower difficulty why make the denizens less powerful to make the boss easier when you can instead just put the save point in front of the boss in instead of the denizens? You’ve already made it through the denizens, it’s not like you’re skipping content.

curiousaur,

Because if you can’t make it through the denizens, you can’t make it through the boss. It’s a filter.

Pyr_Pressure,
@Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca avatar

It’s not that you can’t make it through the denizens, making it through the denizens is usually easy. It’s just a waste of time for the most part.

But_my_mom_says_im_cool, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

Why are these side scrollers premium price?? Seems like such a cash grab. That’s why franchises are going backwards into side scrollers, easy money, i avoid them

BioDriver, do games w Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

Did these people forget how ball-smackingly hard Hollow Knight was???

tmyakal,

I was all-in on Hollow Knight. Beat it multiple times, including Path of Pain and the Nightmare King. But I’m struggling with Silksong.

I went back and started up Hollow Knight again just to sanity-check myself, and, yes, it’s definitely an easier game. Many fewer enemies can hit for 2 health; there’s more variety in paths in the early game, so if you hit a wall in one direction you can try another; and you get access to upgrades that actually feel impactful relatively early instead of skills that use up my magic pool that I can’t spare because I need them because I’m always one hit away from dying.

My pet theory is that Silksong is actually just exactly what they originally pitched: DLC for players that have mastered the highest skill points in Hollow Knight. And maybe that would be fine if I were coming straight into it off of the back of Godhome. But it’s been years since I was playing those areas, and my skills have atrophied. It’s okay for a DLC to expect mastery from the start, but a standalone game should have more of a curve.

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