bin.pol.social

Callie, do gaming w Weekly “What are you playing” Thread || Week of August 20th
@Callie@pawb.social avatar

I’ve been playing Divinity Original Sin 2 with my partner, we both never really got that far into it in the years we both owned it, so we’re trying to get more into it in anticipation of playing Baldurs Gate 3

BentiGorlich, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?
@BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de avatar

All Paradox Interactive games ever created 😂
The worst I had was Hearts Of Iron IV. I played a 2h tutorial only to not understand a single thing the real game threw at me afterwards...

EvaUnit02,
@EvaUnit02@kbin.social avatar

I adore those games, and while I think they've made great strides with CKIII and Vicky 3, I agree that the tutorials are severely lacking.

Uncle_Bagel,

You gotta just start with an easy country. The CK2 community used to call Ireland “Tutorial Island” since it was low key and a good place to learn the mechanics, same with Spain in EU, or Belgium in Vicky.

VentraSqwal,

About what Hearts of Iron? I tried that game once (3 or 4, don’t remember) and basically gave up when the tutorial ended and I still had no idea how to do anything.

BentiGorlich,
@BentiGorlich@gehirneimer.de avatar

Don't get me wrong, I love most of them, but the learning curve is very steep and the tutorials in most of their games just suck...

alchemy88,
@alchemy88@lemmy.team avatar

This I agree with. Stellaris is very confusing starting out and such a huge learning curve the tutorial just doesn’t cover.

Rinnarrae, (edited )
@Rinnarrae@beehaw.org avatar

It’s not nearly as complex as it initially looks imo, but I also play with a million mods some of which make the game needlessly complicated so maybe the vanilla game just looks simple in comparison to me now lol

CrateDane,

Stellaris is far from the worst offender, and yet you’re still entirely right.

soulsource,
@soulsource@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Also, the tutorial has suffered bitrot quite a lot. The game has seen many significant changes since release, but the tuturial was only partially updated to reflect them.

alchemy88,
@alchemy88@lemmy.team avatar

Yeah I think this is a big one for me.

I come back after a major patch or every 6 months and its all changed again! Which is good as it keeps it fresh, but the tutorial is very lacking on the changes.

AdellcomdoisL,

Some Paradox games literally teach you how to play wrong, CKII being an example IIRC

sapo,
@sapo@beehaw.org avatar

Thank god that’s changing tho. CK3 and (though to a lesser extent) Vicky 3 both have relatively decent tutorials.

Helldiver_M,

The imbeded tooltips are a real godsend. I have no idea how I would wrap my head around Vicky 3 otherwise. The tutorial is still worthless tho.

Plibbert,

I still don’t know how to play hearts of iron IV. I’d love to learn but I’m a trial by fire learner. It’s really hard for me to make it through a 2hr YouTube tutorial with monotonous robot voices.

onTerryO, do gaming w Weekly “What are you playing” Thread || Week of August 20th
@onTerryO@lemmy.ca avatar

Fallout 4, since it released on GOG this week.

theangriestbird,

Do you usually wait for the DRM-free release for games?

onTerryO,
@onTerryO@lemmy.ca avatar

Yes. I am old and patient, and have a lot of games to play. I also really dislike DRM.

NightAuthor, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?

Baldurs gate has almost no tutorial for non-gamers, there is SO much assumed you know.

PenguinTD,

There are actually plenty tutorials, but because of the open exploring aspect, players aren’t visiting those tutorial spots that the dev anticipated. They nudge you a bit using the enemy levels, but it should have covered more during the prologue.

EvaUnit02,
@EvaUnit02@kbin.social avatar

I politely disagree. Baldur's Gate III teaches you absolutely nothing about its rules and systems. You are expected to discover the rules and systems on your own. Things like crowd control, the actual numerical advantages of height, and repositioning while in dialog are never explained.

It is the most frustrating aspect of Larian games, imo.

TheRoarer,

The EA tutorial was longer and MUCH more explicit. I was very surprised they truncated it.

bermuda,

repositioning while in dialog are never explained.

I’m a few hours in and I don’t know what you mean? Do you mean being able to switch to a different character in a dialog? If so I’d love to know how to do that. I hate starting dialogue where I need charisma with my low charisma character

EvaUnit02,
@EvaUnit02@kbin.social avatar

Well, no. I mean using other characters while one is in a conversation. During conversations, there are some buttons in the bottom left-hand corner of the screen. One of those will allow you to swap to another character. You will then be able to do whatever you wish with those characters while the original character is in their conversation.

If you wish to use a different character for a conversation, you can simply start the conversation with the given character.

hyorvenn,
@hyorvenn@jlai.lu avatar

Baldur’S gate tutorial was the manual. Unless you talked about the third one

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

At least in the enhanced edition of the first game, there is a tutorial.

NightAuthor,

I was practically a toddler when the others came out, I’m speaking of the one released less than a month ago.

CrateDane,

Baldur’s Gate 1 actually did have a tutorial in Candlekeep. Including temporarily giving you a full party to battle some critters in a basement.

miracleorange,

Literally all of Candlekeep is a tutorial with the quests and the guys in green robes everywhere. It’s kinda great, actually. Allowed you to skip it if you wanted, but there if you need it.

misserror,

I’ve found that bg3 is pretty bad at telling the player things. Such as why you have a advantage or disadvantage on attacks. Another example is I had to search on the internet to figure out what concentration saves against. I know now that I can hover over things in the combat log to see the rolls. But you wouldn’t really know that unless you have played rpg’s like dnd before. It should tell you in a tooltip for concentration.

any1th3r3, do gaming w Weekly “What are you playing” Thread || Week of August 20th

I’ve been going back to The Witcher 3 to play the DLCs.
I finished Hearts of Stone and started Blood and Wine. I really enjoyed the former, but the change of atmosphere and setting of the latter is simply something else and it feels like a new game with how much content there is!

flamingos, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?

The Binding of Isaac, just some drawings on the ground that don’t actually tell you anything.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

That game is very good at introducing concepts gradually though, and plenty of other things you'll discover by accident, as intended.

gk99, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?

Gears of War 1 in online co-op. If you take the tutorial path instead of the right-into-the-game path, you can end up softlocked because it expects you to throw grenades at one point but doesn’t explain it.

MAQ22,
@MAQ22@mastodon.social avatar

@gk99 @bermuda that's so stupid I hate when games don't explain random things

MAQ22,
@MAQ22@mastodon.social avatar

@gk99 @bermuda I like that, games that do this should give you an option for a tutorial tho

Poopfeast420, (edited ) do gaming w Weekly “What are you playing” Thread || Week of August 20th

Last act of Baldurs Gate 3. Damn, does this game have a ton of stuff in it.

The third act is a bit of a disappointment though, compared to the first two. Not necessarily the storylines, or environment, but parts just seem unfinished, more glitches and bugs with quests, which is par for the course for Larian games I guess. It’s still great, and I’m thinking about doing a second playthrough eventually, but probably not before the Definitive or Enhanced Edition release in a year or something.

I hope to finish it in the next couple of days, then play the recently released Quake 2 Enhanced release as a palate cleanser, before jumping into the next bigger game.

Neato, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?
@Neato@kbin.social avatar

Dark Souls 1. It's tutorial is decent for controls but it doesn't go nearly far enough. It doesn't explain rolling, weight and stats are only in level up screen, at least for prompting. So many things about the game you need to know that they leave to expensive trial and error.

I like The Backlogs' video on it. It's a flawed masterpiece.

gk99,

I’m pretty sure Dark Souls is intentionally obtuse, that’s like a core part of the game’s philosophy. It doesn’t explain them because it wants you to try and figure it out on your own or discuss with others.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

Nah, I don't think so. It actually explains everything you need to know, but it's buried in stat and item descriptions that, especially in 2011, we weren't trained to read through to understand the game. So if it's all that missable but still in the game, I think it's fair to say that it just sucks at teaching you.

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

Well, sure, it sucks at teaching you. But you can learn enough through the tutorial and checking stat and item descriptions to be able to learn and discover the rest on your own, you won't get to a spot where you have absolutely no idea what to do, and if you do, you havent explored the available space.

Part of that game's specific appeal when it released was that most other games at the time treated you like a child that needed every detail explained for you to learn and enjoy yourself, they grabbed your head and said "go RIGHT here, right now". It both sucks as a tutorial, but succeeds at establishing a baseline level of expected effort, resilience, perseverance, and experimentation from the player.

That game specifically is not trying to thoroughly teach you how it works. Its job is to provide a world and mechanics that provide a sandbox for you to roll around and suss it out for yourself.

ampersandrew,
@ampersandrew@kbin.social avatar

They've sanded that frustrating learning experience in subsequent games to the point where Elden Ring now has more traditional tutorial pop ups, and unsurprisingly, it's their most successful game to date. That and the aforementioned evidence lead me to believe that the experience a lot of people had with Dark Souls was not what they intended. And you can absolutely get to a few points in Dark Souls 1 and get stuck without a guide; I know it happened to me when it came time to walk the abyss, and even having read item descriptions, it's very easy to forget the one description of one ring you got potentially hours and hours earlier that would solve your problems.

all-knight-party,
@all-knight-party@kbin.cafe avatar

It's hard to talk about Elden Ring's learning experience the same way since by that point the world had enjoyed around four or so similarly constructed From Soft souls like games that had entered the cult popular internet gaming vernacular.

It was no longer as uniquely obtuse as Dark Souls was at its time. But yes, it does teach better, and is more straightforward in a lot of ways, it aligns more with most gamers' common understanding. It has a map.

And I'm not saying Dark Souls is entirely impervious to the argument that it's obtuse, I mean look at the resistance stat. What I'm saying is that you can understand enough to become intrigued by the world and become hooked if it's your sort of game. At the point that you really get hung up you've got incentive to discuss it with others and do that legwork.

It gets you into the game well enough while also establishing that you may totally have some mental hoops to jump through later. If there were to be some Dark Souls full remake with some arguable quality of life improvements, I'd bet there'd be a number of areas you could make less obtuse while still preserving a sense of genuine discovery, and that'd be a very fun "ethical" discussion as well with so much grey area to be had.

Euphoma, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?

Acceleration of Suguri 2 has a tutorial that is just 9 pages talking about the games systems telling you about how specific buttons are for what attacks and which button combinations and other stuff, but it never tells you what those buttons actually are, it just says they are the attack A, attack B, dash button, hyper button, super button. It took me an hour of playing the game to figure out what all of the buttons were.

NateSwift,

This is super common with fighting games. The expectation is that people will be playing on all kinds of input devices, many of them custom. I wonder if part of it comes from the older game’s tutorials being written for arcade cabinets where that’s how the buttons were actually labeled

Yearly1845, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?

deleted_by_author

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  • deadbeef79000,

    That’s exactly how the original worked too, other than the manual.

    Though manuals in those days were more lore than tutorial.

    AdellcomdoisL, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?

    Warframe explains very little of its systems, and what it explains is generally poorly done. Upgrading and optimizing your abilities, acquiring proper mods and frames, how the levelling system actually works, generally anything that isn’t “shoot at enemy until it dies” needs to be taught by another player or read upon.

    loopgru,

    Came here to say this. The new player experience is an awesome upgrade in terms of getting people into the world and narrative, but you're still thrown into an ocean of systems and content without a map. If you're not following a guide or piecing things together from the wiki it's very easy to get totally overwhelmed.

    LunarLoony, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?
    @LunarLoony@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    Donkey Kong 64’s tutorial is very poor. Most 3D platformers give you a safe area or easy first level, within which you can explore and learn the mechanics at your own pace. DK64 instead forces you through several tiny tutorial gauntlets, and it’s a little jarring.

    belt_bunny,

    Which is super weird because the same developer (Rare) made Banjo Kazooie a year earlier! BK had a tutorial level with a bunch of easy enemies and platforming and it worked great. I have no idea why DK64 was so different in comparison

    LunarLoony,
    @LunarLoony@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    I would wager it was a last-minute change as a result of focus testing. There is a lot going on in DK64, and sometimes you’re too close to a game to realise that all those button combinations aren’t the most intuitive to new players - and given the slapped-together nature of the tutorials, it makes me think it was an afterthought at best.

    johnthedoe, do gaming w What's a good game you played with an awful tutorial?

    Most if not all game prior to like 2000 didn’t give you tutorials. I guess they were in the booklet that came with the game so not in the game.

    Super Mario Bros on NES starting point is the best. Simple and allowed people to die repeatedly to learn what the game is about.

    Dekthro, (edited ) do gaming w Weekly “What are you playing” Thread || Week of August 20th

    I’ve been trying to finish some games that I always wanted to play. So I just completed a first run through of NieR: Automata (WA complete). Now for the second!

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