Have you been successful in obtaining ownership or moderation to any abandoned mags? I've requested to a couple that I occasionally participate in just in case they get targeted for spam, but I haven't heard yea or nay either way.
Real posts (from kbin.social magazines) are becoming quite rare. I find myself coming to this site now to do the following circuit:
sort by new and report SPAM and block users
scroll through headlines and read (the few) recent comments/posts to mags I'm interested in
come to kbinMeta and see if anyone else is seeing what I'm seeing and feeling the same way
see if the radio silence has yet been broken by the dev
It's a fascinating case study in the rise and fall of an internet community and digital communication platform. And it highlights one important fact about human community management and technology development: COMMUNICATION IS KEY.
Using this approach, I am seeing none of those posts on /science. I updated the filters a bit today. The top post is a legitimate article from 2024-04-13 and is by HeartyBeast.
Now, I understand that this is seen as an unnecessary step (too fancy) for some. People want zero ads out of the box without anything extra. So I'm thinking about the next approach here.
Framing the problem:
Filtering should be automatic
End-user wants zero additional setup
There is no active upstream development
It's not possible to inherit moderation of a magazine due to some queue of moderator application requests that is not being approved
The third point and fourth points are important here, since that's currently intractable. You can't reconcile zero additional setup with that.
But let's suppose becoming moderator of a defunct magazine (point 4) were possible while point 3 remained unresolved. In other words, at least moderators can try to pick up the pieces. Something being underestimated here is how annoying it would be for the moderator to manually cull posts every single day. I think you would have instant turnover after a couple of weeks once the tedium sets in. Manual solution is not good. Clearly, automation is needed on the moderation side.
So assuming you could actually inherit a magazine, but with no guarantee of upstream development, what about restructuring the tool above so that it's for moderators, instead of end-users? That's pretty easy, and I could make it something the moderator clicks once and it's done, auto-banning the posts. This is a pretty good method.
But you can't inherit moderation right now, so that's back to square one.
Realistically, that leaves these options at the moment:
Wait (a long time) and see
Use the tool above and make magazines readable, albeit at some sacrifice of convenience (?)
Migrate to another instance
Third approach is the path of least resistance and is best for most casual users. Second is for diehards who cannot move instances due to some personal or technical reason. First approach is the most annoying and eventually leads to the third approach after frustration sets in.
Pick your poison, I guess. I can't think of any other prophylactic approach at the moment, maybe this comment triggers some idea.
It would be nice if the report feature had a way to indicate if the problem is spam, content or whatever other issues people might have. You could have a threshold for spam reports to put the account in review and prevent of hide it's posts.
I have to type 4 letters for every spam I see. I'd prefer to check a box (on my phone where typing is annoying this is even more useful) I do this dozens of times per day - it gets annoying fast.
A short pull-down list would work well: Spam, Harassment, Site ToS Violation, Thread/Group Rules Violation, etc.
This way you can automate rules like: if an article get's N spam or harassment reports it's put into the review queue and hidden until a Moderator can review it.
@Kierunkowy74
Yes, moderators can access the reports tab within the magazine panel. Every report must include some reason, hence moderators see them. Regarding bans: without giving a proper reason, no ban can come into effect.
You can also check the modlogs on kbin and lemmy instances for bans (does not apply to mbin). @bayaz@jayrhacker
Most forums have dedicated categories for common stuff like this. Written reports are fine if an explanation is needed, not for the newly created samename37 spambot account illicitly selling drugs (or something that is probably phishing, like the delta airlines refund ticket type stuff) without really doing much to hide it.
It's the same communities and overwhelming at times to the point it doesn't even feel productive or even needed to report it. This is the lowest of low-hanging fruit.
Lots of places that list ernest as the only moderator. Some I've seen are on communities such as: fediverse, internet, opensource, science, random (which also pulls content from various places, which had the added minus that spam from other instances will not have deletions federated). Even the ask communities are sometimes hit, or for instance in this community there's a spam thread for pills in Dubai right below this one in new (from 2 days ago).
Specifically I'm talking about stuff you'll either see piled up in the new feed OR in the 'random threads'/posts section. My new feed isn't lotsa spam like it was earlier, but the sidebar currently is.
You don't like bufo toad venom? I like to start my mornings by sipping a little bufo toad venom while reading kbin. Buy bufo toad venom today.
In all seriousness...I don't know if you saw my last thread about KES in this magazine, but I suggest giving it a try. I've extended the filter coverage based on your feedback, and those magazines should essentially be expunged of garbage for the time being.
As for the sidebar, I believe the implementation is fundamentally flawed because it loads content that, AFAIK, doesn't respect your actual block settings. I suggest disabling the random threads element altogether in KES by navigating to General > Hide sidebar elements.
I don't know if you saw my last thread about KES in this magazine
I did. I would still be commenting about it as I don't think extra stuff should be necessary to fix a problem like this. Filters should exist especially for new accounts (even the most cautious implementation could make a big difference), comparing names to banned accounts before account creation too (or shadowbanning so they don't just choose different names).
because it loads content that, AFAIK, doesn't respect your actual block settings
Oh yeah, funnily enough the one thread in my image that isn't spam was from a community I blocked. (at least I think it was, hard to tell with different instances)
Also to add to my list above, I just noticed a lot of spam posted in the food community. Also checking from the top of the magazine list with default sorting: tech, TodayILearned, space, showerthoughts, programming (though some of the spam is related SEO-type garbage). Books has 1 piece of spam and 1 user (probably bot given the post with 503 - Service unavailable in a title) who just aggregates Amazon links+descriptions.
Of course, I'm not trying to suggest that a third-party prophylactic tool is a definitive solution to what is ultimately a separate problem, just trying to be pragmatic here and restore basic readability for end-users, whether the filtering is done at the source or after the fact.
Let's be real here, we are talking about unmoderated magazines on an instance where the developer is AWOL and using a framework that is lacking many basic features. Even with moderators, manual moderation can be a big ask and is time-consuming for free volunteers, depending on the volume of posts or how rudimentary the moderation tools are.
I actually don't read kbin magazines much, so I wasn't aware of the extent of the problem until I started opening those magazines more closely, and felt that something is better than nothing.
On the magazines you mentioned, I do see a few anomalous patterns that I'll start filtering. For the most part, with filtering enabled, they were almost entirely free of garbage, save for a few patterns I may have missed on the first few passes. /programming and /food I need to take a deeper look at. The /food thing is good intel, because the use of Amazon referral links in the threads is something that can be generalized to other situations beyond books. Posting referral links is definitively block-worthy.
I also noticed some stuff that by any other name would be considered a thinly-veiled ad, such as specific users only posting articles to web sites they own and operate. I'm not talking about bots as such, but actively promoting one's own content--even when such content is on-topic for the magazine. I declined to filter this stuff yet, because it received a lot of upvotes and seemed to be received favorably, maybe because the readers felt it was at least germane to the topic at hand? I think this is probably true for /food as well, because the line between "content" and "promotion" is unclear here, since what is a food blog if not a product generating click revenue? It seems like the tolerance threshold for that sort of thing is higher in a magazine like /food versus some other magazine. Anyway, I digress. I'm not treating such stuff as in scope, just filtering what is blatantly noise.
On food I was actually talking about the non-related spam, such as the x8 newest. Mostly gummies and pills, though maybe you're already blocking those like you said (and this might apply to the below text too).
Though looking at it there are also some semi-related local-specific self advertisements by likely bots (Best X in location Y / near me). So I wasn't talking about food blogs, but I do see some of those that are downvoted (and they are clickbait-y). One of the blogspot ones (the one who marked it as 18+) has one thread about Quora SEO and another thread called "hot girl" (random woman outside)
Aside from blocking I could see soft hiding (especially with ratings and/or grouping), though I'm not so sure how well that would work with assessing a thread or a user. Though I notice a lot of accounts like this don't seem to comment much if at all.
@shazbot@insomniac_lemon To be clear, you're talking about /m/food on kbin.social? And particularly the threads side?
I'm the mod for that community, and I'm not seeing any amazon links, gummies, etc. I'm usually pretty good about deleting those within at most 24 hours of them being posted. But, if you're still seeing them, either there's a glitch or I'm doing something wrong.
Right now, I'm seeing 51 threads total, and the newest one is a month old (tagliatelle link). Are you seeing something different?
I agree with you about the questionable food blogs and probably-ai-generated content. I've been on the fence about whether to delete those, but I decided to let it slide and hope that upvotes/downvotes would take care of it. Also, I didn't get any user reports about them, so that was another metric to consider. For now, I'm just doing the absolute minimum of deleting obvious drug spam and amazon links (or, at least, I thought I was). If you notice anything especially egregious (where on earth do you see this 18+ spam nonsense?!) and could take the time to report it, I would really appreciate it.
To be clear, you're talking about /m/food on kbin.social? And particularly the threads side?
I'm the mod for that community, and I'm not seeing any amazon links, gummies, etc
Amazon links no, that was Books and the other user misspoke in one of their comments.
The other stuff, you deleted some of it after I commented, some is still there. Screenshot attached, the last one is about food but is that user's only post and looks awfully like a thinly-veiled advertisement.
EDIT: I should have started with "thanks", by the way. I appreciate the response.
This is so weird. I don't see any of those first four posts. I see the fifth (I'm actually the downvote), and I agree it's sketchy, but I'm trying to get just the absolute worst out for now.
Also, I have two posts you don't have. I'm viewing this directly in Firefox -- are you in an app of some kind?
Also, I have two posts you don't have. I'm viewing this directly in Firefox -- are you in an app of some kind?
That is weird, and nope also Firefox. I see what you do if I log out though. I checked, I don't seem to have that user blocked, and the spam still there then gone on logout/private-window is something else entirely.
EDIT: I don't see those 2 posts because they are categorized as Macedonian. I have it set to English only. Though the posts look like they are in English.
Yep, I meant to say /books when I was talking about Amazon links. Sorry.
As for the posts on /food, I have totally vanilla settings (no language filtering or anything) and I saw all of the posts you both mentioned.
Well, with the exception of the garbage posts, because in answer to lemon's earlier question, those have long since been scrubbed on the filter side. But they did exist before I started filtering.
All of that low hanging fruit kind of stuff has been banished, and I am mainly working on edge cases at this point.
Ouch, what a bug. I knew some of the moderation wasn't being federated, but I can't imagine how a kbin user isn't seeing the latest version.
To be clear, you see the spam when logged in, then don't see it logged out, then see it again when logged in again?
I don't see it regardless of whether I'm logged in or not. Also, I don't think I've ever been able to see it because I don't see the posts in a quick look through the moderation log.
Would you mind posting an issue about this? https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/issues Or, I can do it if you don't feel like it and don't mind me using your screenshots. If you do post it, just please emphasize that this makes it impossible for moderation to happen because the moderator literally cannot see the posts.
Thanks again for trying things out and sharing your info!
To be clear, you see the spam when logged in, then don't see it logged out, then see it again when logged in again?
Correct.
Or, I can do it if you don't feel like it and don't mind me using your screenshots
I haven't used codeberg yet, so I'll just say sure you can use my screenshots/words. It also directly affects you as a mod more as you've said, anyway.
Using those usernames/profiles to look at the posts directly, I don't suppose there is anything that might detail what is going on? There are ~500 open issues, maybe this is some existing database/caching issue possibly related to post/community IDs? Though I am still not sure why viewing would differ by user.
Using those usernames/profiles to look at the posts directly, I don't suppose there is anything that might detail what is going on?
Can you get me the full usernames including domains (e.g., PellyNews@blah.blah)? More info couldn't hurt when compiling the issue report.
The only thing I can think of is that maybe you are somehow "subscribed" to other domains because you follow some magazine/community there, and I am not, so the posts don't show up for me. That doesn't really make sense, but neither does anything else.
I did do a little searching for terms like "delete", "cache", and even "different", and didn't see this exact issue anywhere. The closest I found was this: https://codeberg.org/Kbin/kbin-core/issues/875 . It doesn't seem like a federation issue, though, since we are on the same instance. But, if you wanted to experiment further, you could try either downvoting or commenting on the spam to see whether that makes it visible to me.
Okay, thanks for your patience. I think we've hit the limit of what we can do at this point.
Nothing changed with your downvotes or comments. Going through kbin.social/u/{user}, I was able to view and delete PellyNews's threads. I am unable to do anything with the other two users. Even though I can see they exist, the relevant threads do not show up for me under their profiles.
I'll file the issue and keep just deleting what I can until things are sorted out on the backend. Thanks again for your help on this.
Looking at the modlog, the ones you removed were posts (microblogs). Relevant to the issue?
Nice catch!
With your direct links, I was able to see those threads. I attempted to delete two of them, and the modlog shows that I was successful. I've left the third for now as evidence for any developers who care to look.
Regarding "unban", I'm hoping that's just a bug in how things are printed. The ban does show up in the moderation log.
@insomniac_lemon It ended up being super simple -- my profile was hiding the 18+ posts by default. All I had to do was uncheck a box, and everything appeared again. Kind of a clever way by the spammers of getting around some moderation if it was intentional. It sounds like the kbin devs might consider changing the defaults on that for moderators to avoid this in the future.
I understand if you don't want to add yet another third-party tool just to browse the site, but if you feel at all inclined, give it a try. For me 99% of magazines went from unusable to essentially clean.
I don't use a smartphone. im a smartphone luddite. Heck I don't even have a cell phone on me often unless I know I need it (expecting a call or oncall)
I understand why they disabled public downvotes (since they're accepting incoming ones now, they don't want to expose everyone's downvotes from other instances), and I remember they gave some reasoning on Github for why it makes sense to not hide upvotes too, but do we really need incoming downvotes? I think that feature should be a toggle where you either have downvotes hidden but federated, or visible but not federated. And then the instance owner can decide what they prefer.
That's really my main issue with mbin. While I've gotten too used to the All Content view and collections, both of those are on their roadmap, so they'll be coming eventually.
Preventing this issue doesn't seem like a userscript issue (though that's definitely a good start).I think the auto report function is severely needed; it's happening everywhere. If the script can automatically block any user whose post it suppresses, it would be awesome.
But I think the issue is that we need to get support top-down on this.
If the script can automatically block any user whose post it suppresses, it would be awesome.
It does! I've reworded the OP to hopefully make that clearer. After using this approach for a few days, my blocklist (generated entirely programmatically) is ten pages long, and there is nary a bad post in sight. I'm expanding the filters on a daily basis.
I think the auto report function is severely needed; it's happening everywhere.
The idea is that it takes the burden off of myriad (N) users having to manually do this themselves, and lets a single user (the KES custodian) prepare the filters, which then propagate out to any user of KES. Instead of 1,000 people manually blocking, one person builds the heuristics, and everyone benefits.
Preventing this issue doesn't seem like a userscript issue...but I think the issue is that we need to get support top-down on this.
I understand, but the stated goal of KES is addressing issues that can't, or won't (due to some design conflict), be addressed, or which fall through the cracks. At the moment I'm seeing a lot of people voicing frustration, but due to the skeleton crew situation with administration of the site, it seems like screaming into the void. Not that there's anything wrong with that, and hopefully it gets some traction. But my job with KES is just to provide fixes for the end-user, albeit of a third-party nature.
Starting to feel like there's more SPAM than posts on Kbin, at this point.
I sort by new and comb through reporting "SPAM" and blocking users, but it's a never-ending cycle it seems and users reported for SPAM are still posting (hence why I block them in addition to reporting the individual posts).
Thanks for the hard work!
Even though I don't post much so mostly ignore all those messages, still it is a big problem. Until we get it sorted out having tools like these helps stop "bleeding" by people who want to use kbin.
Had few pop up on my magazine even though there is barely a traction but saw few times bloat when posted on other magazines which is really discouraging.
I don't read magazines in-depth much either, so I wasn't aware of the extent of the issue at first, but I was appalled at what I saw. I agree with you that it creates a negative impression for anyone wanting to venture into or use a magazine. I know that needing KES upfront may be a non-starter for some people, but for me the difference with filtering is night and day now.
FYI, I tried the process you mentioned, I'm not sure it's as simple as your post implies (if that process could be called "simple" anyway). I've tried a few different orders of "report, delete, ban", and clicked the "ban" button in at least two spots (one that was directly in the feed and another that comes up under Reports in the magazine panel). No matter what I do, it always shows up as "unban" in the mod log. However, there is a list of bans under the magazine panel, and that does show the accounts as banned.
So, I'm really not sure what is going on here. Maybe it's just a problem with the log and not with the banning itself?
Anyway, thanks again for pointing this out. Hopefully someone can figure out what is going on.
I've been curious about trying out mbin, and this seems like a good instance to do it on. So I absolutely like option 2 the best.
That said, I tried to sign up earlier today, and never received the registration email. Tried to sign up with an old Gmail account. Might be worth looking into. :)
Sorry about that, and thanks for letting me know. I had no idea the email system was down. I'll probably try to look into it after the migration to Mbin. I've gone ahead and manually verified each user from the past week, so you should be able to sign in now.
Sounds good! Migration probably won't happen today, but maybe tomorrow or the day after if we get lucky. Unfortunately, I ran into a problem while trying to set up Mbin due to one of the mbin/kbin dependencies suddenly disappearing out of the blue (see here).
Actually, it would really help if the "Block" button was right next to the username on the spam post. Having to hover over the name and wait for the modal to appear and then go click on "Block" makes it more of a nuisance. I wonder also if in the future you could choose not to display posts by user accounts less than a month old with only downvotes or who have been blocked by hundreds of people.
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