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Trilobite, do games w After shutting down several popular emulators, Nintendo admits emulation is legal

Nintendo lost my business long ago nothing they make or say will get me to buy another Nintendo product

Aielman15, do games w YouTuber Faces Possible Jail Time for Reviewing Gaming Handhelds
@Aielman15@lemmy.world avatar

Italy is a joke. Our politicians call us lazy, the rich go on TV crying because they can’t find people willing to work for minimal (or below) wage, and then a young person manages to carve themselves a path outside of the ‘norm’, our state immediately shows up and curb stomps them.

I was talking with a colleague of mine the other day. They work two jobs to make a living. The state taxed them so much, they are paying more for the second job that they are gaining, basically working for free. Tax the poor, let the rich off the hook.

Fuck Italy.

Nikls94,

Up to 20k per year you pay 23%, from 20k to 32k you pay 25% and from 32k to 50k per year you pay 35% income tax. If my research is correct, the main job emplayer keeps the tax. So the second employer should keep those 23% as well. As long as your colleague earns less than 50k from both of his jobs, he only has to pay 12% of the second job‘s yearly income as taxes out of his own pocket.

So mathematically it should not be possible to pay to be able to work.

Unless he’s "self employed“ but then he’s allowed that employer to fist him lubeless.

Aielman15,
@Aielman15@lemmy.world avatar

It’s a bit of a complicated situation and I wouldn’t go into much detail, but basically, they live in Italy, but one of their job is (work from home) in another country. They are taxed by the other country, then taxed by Italy as well.

After that, Italy fined them on some bullshit grounds and forced them to pay a ridiculous sum of money. Needless to say, they never attempted to skirt or evade taxes or anything. They worked their ass off and the country said “fuck you in particular” because Italy.

I specifically remember them telling me that, despite being half Italian, they wanted to live in Italy because they love the country and have friends and family here, but now they don’t know what to do. It’s heartbreaking seeing how our country treats its citizens, then our politicians going on TV and lamenting the fact that young people choose to go live elsewhere. Italy as a country doesn’t see you as a citizen to protect, it just wants to squeeze you dry and leave you for dead.

bassomitron,

That really sucks, man. I fully empathize with getting fucked by a greedy government that protects the wealthy while abusing the working class. The world needs to unite against the elites destroying it.

Nikls94,

They might Google some double taxation agreement between Italy and this other country. Usually, if there isn’t any, there should be a law to create a specific situation for them to avoid double taxation.

Nalivai,

So it’s not taxes, it’s some unspecified fines

mnemonicmonkeys,

That’s still not how progressive tax systems work. In your example, it’s the first 20k is taxed 23%, then the next 32k is taxed 25%, then the next 50k is taxed 35%.

So if you made 52k in a year, the first 20k yields 4.6k in taxes, then the remaining 32k yields 8k in taxes. Leading to a total of 12.6k in taxes, or an effective rate of ~24.2%

TroublesomeTalker,

When the scores are settled sure, doesn’t mean there’s not mechanisms in any particular country that make this harder. Work two Jobs in the UK without carefully sorting PAYE and one of those will be collected at 40% emergency rates. You get it back eventually, but if you are paying transport, meals and other expenses to attend the second job I can see how it could get close to nothing. You get most of it back later, but that doesn’t help marginalized people trying to earn extra right now.

rimjob_rainer,

Our politicians call us lazy, the rich go on TV crying because they can’t find people willing to work for minimal (or below) wage

This sounds like Germany. I think it’s the norm in many countries by now. We already entered late stage capitalism, at this point it will only become worse.

prole,

The state taxed them so much, they are paying more for the second job that they are gaining, basically working for free

Perhaps I’m misreading, but I don’t think this is mathematically possible.

Nalivai,

The amount of people who don’t understand how taxes work is just ridiculous.

FanciestPants, (edited )

Speaking from US perspective, our tax code is a few thousand pages. I don’t think it’s meant for most people to understand.

That said, yeah the effective tax rate being a larger percent of one’s income than the income from a second job is probably something that would be understood by most if stated differently.

Edit: i read some further responses and realized it’s a different situation than a simple effective tax rate issue. I also didn’t really understand the foreign and domestic tax issues at hand and resulting tax penalties though, so I’m in the ridiculous group.

NuXCOM_90Percent, do games w YouTuber Faces Possible Jail Time for Reviewing Gaming Handhelds

Seen this going around.

Is anyone familiar with the channel itself? Because based on the article, it sounds like mostly (presumably he) is getting made an example of for reviewing hardware that comes with ROMs on an SD Card? But… a LOT of these “retro consoles” do and outlets just ignore it in favor of their totally legit collection that they don’t talk about.

Did OWN actually show what is on the SD Card and emphasize that these units came with it?

Evil_Shrubbery, (edited )

He uploaded an English dubbed explanation: youtube/zSEB4if2pJQ#.

He seems super unsavvy when it comes to legal/formal proceedings or authority in general (I don’t mean that as a bad thing, we are all different, just that it can def affect how things go and escalate).
For one he got the notice in mid April & just continued to review (among other things?) such consoles this whole time (which makes me think now a trial is even more likely) & didn’t prepare for anything (his channels, personal things, SD cards with all them ROMs, etc).
The panic & the whole ‘why is this happening to me’ anger makes more sense in view of this (not that is isn’t warranted, from what I’ve seen it’s def stupid anyone is doing anything about this guy in general).

But other shit-showy things happened too - they took his phone to make a copy & didn’t return it for two months (it’s unclear if they had a warrant for it or if he volunteered it - or indeed if Italian law recognises what a “personal device” is as EU has yet to compile a delegated act that will unify definitions & personal rights for such modern necessities for all members).
(If a cop takes my phone & doesn’t promptly return it still locked I’m marring their mom & make them call me daddy before the trial starts. Then submit my phone in evidence with saucy newlywed pics. I would be angy too if they took my phone, not to mention some poor data retrieval specialist getting a lifetime dose of ptsd.)

An Italian youtuber with some legal experience explains a bit more (in Italian): youtube./zSEB4if2pJQ#.

What I was thinking is that the complaint had to be specific, ie some lawyer (for a Japanese megacorp?) found an exact thing to complain about (eg in this exact second of this specific vid he admits this personal gain and shows that illegal thing, etc). Not just something vague.
They are looking at all his communication, finances, and content on his channels (but might be focusing only on one YT channel - this and the fact they mention an Anbernic device makes me think it’s a very specific complaint).
I don’t know that much about Italian law enforcement but I agree that is a bit sus they went after him at all - there might be more to the story that he either isn’t saying or thinks (in your average “law ignorance” way) irrelevant but is very relevant. Idk.

Killer_Tree,

Thank you for the additional context and links!

x00z, do games w YouTuber Faces Possible Jail Time for Reviewing Gaming Handhelds
@x00z@lemmy.world avatar

The officials have access to the devices, they consumed the illegal content and then documented their findings. This is considered a review and the officials should be charged under the copyright law.

thermal_shock,

Almost like illegally obtaining evidence

KingThrillgore, do games w After shutting down several popular emulators, Nintendo admits emulation is legal
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

Needless to say I will not be buying a Switch 2 today.

Gullible,

I imagine the steam deck will be capable of emulating switch 2 titles nearly immediately, so there’s little reason to buy it. They really need to make their hardware comparable to their software (minus the notoriously awful Japan™ netcode)

ShinkanTrain,

Emulating Switch 2 games on the Steam Deck would be a challenge. Even though it’s on an outdated process node, I think it’s fair to say it’s in the same class of hardware as a Steam Deck (which is 3 years old at this point).

Deck 2, though…

gamermanh,

I think it’s fair to say it’s in the same class of hardware as a Steam Deck (which is 3 years old at this point).

The switch was weaker than the PS4, which was the same age difference at launch

Shit, I think you could actually compare it reasonably to a PS3 from 10 years before switch launch

ShinkanTrain, (edited )

The switch was weaker than the PS4, which was the same age difference at launch

Steam Deck’s APU maxes out at 15W while a launch PS4 does 10 times that. Not a good comparison.

Gullible,

They’d have to sell it for $500, if it’s comparable to the steam deck. I find that unlikely, personally.

russjr08,

Hardware aside, to my knowledge no one is really actively developing any of the Switch emulators due to the prior legal action that was taken.

Now, eventually it’s possible someone might do it for the Switch 2, but I wouldn’t expect anything quick as whomever does so will very likely incur the mighty wrath of Nintendo’s legal team.

DoucheBagMcSwag,

Good luck getting someone to continue emulation development. The only potential chance for development is exclusively on the under web, and the dev has said that “this was supposed to be a hobby” meaning they have an out if they don’t want to continue

Theoriginalthon,

Yeah you’ll have to wait until at least march

ayyy, do games w YouTuber Faces Possible Jail Time for Reviewing Gaming Handhelds

Fuck fascists. I can’t believe the literal Mussolini’s are making a comeback. Remember, the only good fascist is a dead fascist.

Cocopanda,

CIA killed all the leftists in Italy to keep Italy out of the USSR. Don’t forget that.

Valmond,

Common grandpa, take your pills now.

Cocopanda,

I mean. Are you trying to say that things that have been reported on and unclassified. Didn’t happen? Come on now young one.

Saledovil,

Source?

Cocopanda,
Saledovil,

Reading through the article it appears that the group that carried out the most assassination was the Brigado Rosso, or Red Brigades. Interestingly, they also killed a prominent politician of the Christian Democrats, Aldo Moro, who was actively looking into working with the communist party, and his assassination killed his party’s plans to work with the Communist Party.

The CIA appears to have been involved only marginally, being mentioned only only at one point where fascists ask them if the USA would theoretically support a coup. (Technically they’re also mentioned in the list of parties involved in the conflict, as alleged supporters of the fascists). While this doesn’t prove that they weren’t involved, I did expect there to be more proven CIA meddling based on your earlier claims.

It appears that the CIA wasn’t to blame for the leftist’s. In fact, it seems like the Marxist-Leninist Red Brigades killed people until they had no allies left, thus being unable to sustain their campaign of assassinations. So, yeah, basically your source completely undermines your position.

Cocopanda,

I want you to know. That handlers might not pull the bullets. But they control the messaging from Langley. Just like Che’s death. It wasn’t an American killing them. But they were in the room when they were killed.

Saledovil,

So, do you have any actual evidence that the CIA got involved in the years of lead? Or are you seriously trying to tell me that the Red Brigades were CIA puppets?

Cocopanda,

Simple answer. Is there are books detailing this. But there is no direct smoking gun to say the CIA directly participated in assassinations. It’s just known that they financed and supplied radical groups on the right to do their dirty deeds.

Saledovil,

Then why did you cite a source that doesn’t claim that the CIA was supporting the right wingers?

Valmond,

No but that there are no leftists in Italy because of it. Or do you believe the CIA is killing all the leftist in Italy right now?

Revan343,

As opposed to a rare grandpa?

CmdrShepard49,

An S-tier grandpa

sma3in, do games w After shutting down several popular emulators, Nintendo admits emulation is legal
@sma3in@lemmy.world avatar

we know emulation is legal, but we’re still going to legally have a legal reason to take y’all emulators to court angry face

viking,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Bypassing copy protection has always been the number one reason, it was never emulation per se.

IMALlama,

See also: …wikipedia.org/…/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public…

Strategic lawsuits against public participation (also known as SLAPP suits or intimidation lawsuits), or strategic litigation against public participation, are lawsuits intended to censor, intimidate, and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition

There are many, many variants. The idea is the smaller player can’t really afford to fight in court, so even if the larger actor has shaky legal claims they will still win.

missingno, do games w YouTuber Faces Possible Jail Time for Reviewing Gaming Handhelds
@missingno@fedia.io avatar

I'm surprised they've gotten away with shipping preloaded SD cards for so long. That was a risk waiting to blow up in someone's face, though it obviously isn't fair to be going after some guy rather than the distributors.

FinalRemix,

To be fair, they (anbernic at least) sidestep the obvious minefields. No Mario, Pokemon, etc. A bunch of really sketchy and somewhat janky MAME ROMs, and a bunch of NES and others, on my 35xxV and 406h.

mariusafa, do games w After shutting down several popular emulators, Nintendo admits emulation is legal

I prefer my nintendont 2 (aka steam deck). Fuck Nintendo bastards and taking down all cool emulator free software projects.

john89,

Glad I still have my solid copy of Yuzu.

Never buying another console again, and it’s been years since I bought a video game.

The companies only have themselves to blame.

mariusafa,

Yeah I have a repo clone just before takedown.

thingsiplay, do gaming w After shutting down several popular emulators, Nintendo admits emulation is legal

Nintendo never said that all emulation is illegal. Nintendo just does not like that their current gen is being emulated and lot of games are easily available on pirate sites for everyone. Otherwise Nintendo would have tried to shutdown emulators for previous systems too. They were especially worried about the Switch 2 being emulated easily with current emulators, as it doesn’t seen too different. I think that’s all to it.

However, there are still a number of ways that emulators can violate the law. For example, the Nintendo Switch has certain “technical restriction measures” that prevent it from playing pirated games. If a Switch emulator seeks to bypass those measures, it opens itself up to legal trouble.

Which law exactly? There are exceptions for making personal backup copies. So its not really court tested law and we don’t know if it violates the law. As the article said, these cases never went to court and we don’t have a decision by law. Nintendo did all of that out of court.

DdCno1,

Nintendo went even further than that:

tech4gamers.com/nintendo-linking-emulator-traffic…

And they absolutely have said that emulation is illegal in the past:

slashgear.com/…/are-video-game-emulators-illegal-…

On their website, they name emulators in a list of “illegal activities” they want people to snitch on:

To report ROM sites, emulators, Game Copiers, Counterfeit manufacturing, or other illegal activities

…nintendo.com/…/how-to-report-potential-infringem…

thingsiplay,

Those articles are wrong. Nintendo says Switch emulation is illegal, not all emulation is illegal.

DdCno1,

They have always argued that emulating a current system is illegal, which makes no legal sense. Either every kind of emulation is or none.

thingsiplay,

It makes sense from argumentation standpoint, because Nintendo argues that there are protection mechanisms in the Switch that is illegal to ignore, in emulators. I don’t know if this is true and you don’t know either, because this was not tested in court. Nintendo never ever said that ALL emulation is illegal, which i stated in my initial reply. Otherwise Nintendo would go and take down ALL emulators. Not every kind of emulation is the same.

In example the Dolphin emulator ships with keys extracted from the console. Some say its illegal to distribute these keys, others argue keys are not copyrighted and its not illegal to share, but it was never tested in court either. If Nintendo had a case, they would definitely go against that emulator, as the keys are in the source code in the open public. Nintendo never said that Dolphin or Wii and Gamecube emulation is illegal. Or any other prior console and emulator of Nintendo systems. Nintendo console emulators exist in the public since the 90s.

Its much more nuanced than people are making or understanding. And lot of articles, like the one stated before, are plain and simple wrong and cite without context. And people who don’t understand the situation take this and believe it.

Chewy7324,

Great comment!

There’s similar legal issues with the “right to a private copy” many European countries have. Those laws were made to allow people to make a copy of their media, in case the original breaks. Important to note is that those private copies weren’t allowed to be distributed to anyone, not even lent to a friend.

This worked well at the time for cassettes and VHS, which did break occasionally.

But at some point most CDs came with copy protection, which got broken pretty quickly. But at least in Germany, they are still considered “working copy protection” and thus are illegal to circumvent, even for a otherwise legal private copy.

The same is the case with Switch games: Copyright owners use copy protection to make otherwise legal use cases illegal.

E.g. Nintendo made it so that Switch games can only be played by decrypting the ROMs, which is illegal for anyone except Nintendo.

At least that’s their standpoint which was never tested in court but it’s not unlikely that it’d be accepted.

thingsiplay,

But this is still to be discussed, because if the emulator does not circumvent any copy protection and the games are dumped with the protection in place, and the copy protection is reverse engineered, then the games would play with the copy protection decrypting. It does not circumvent the protection, it actively “uses” it. So from that standpoint making backup copies is not illegal in theory. Now would this hold in court? I don’t know. Nintendo does not know either and rather like to take things out of court. Because if Nintendo looses such a case, it would be devastating.

I’m in Germany too and the right to a private copy is exactly what I had in mind too. Not all copy protection measures were accepted for the right to not copy. What I mean is, there was some extremely simple protection mechanisms that were not accepted as a working and effective copy protections, and you were allowed to do a copy; even with the so called copy protection in place. Therefore it effectiveness was kind of important to the discussion too. I guess the Switch has a much more advanced one, so its probably not an exception.

spit_evil_olive_tips,

Which law exactly?

the paragraph after the one you quoted answers this question:

Note that this discussion was based on Japanese law, but the same language is found in the DMCA Section 1201(a)(1)(A): “No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.” That law is more than 26 years old, going into effect a month after Google was founded, but the language remains in place.

thingsiplay,

It makes no sense to cite a little part of the US DMCA law if the discussion was based on Japanese laws. If you look at www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201 , its much more complicated than one sentence. As for the DMCA, this is the next paragraph after the cited above one:

(B) The prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to persons who are users of a copyrighted work which is in a particular class of works, if such persons are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by virtue of such prohibition in their ability to make noninfringing uses of that particular class of works under this title, as determined under subparagraph ©.

I admit not really to understand, as the language is hard to read for me. It would even be hard in my native language. Does the Japanese law have such clauses and exceptions?

spit_evil_olive_tips,

both the DMCA in the US as well as that Japanese law are implementations of the 1996 WIPO Copyright Treaty. that is why they can be discussed in a fairly interchangeable way.

ceenote, do games w After shutting down several popular emulators, Nintendo admits emulation is legal

So when they shut down Ryujinx and Yuzu, was it basically “Stop running this emulator or we will ruin your lives with legal bills”?

iAmTheTot,

Iirc, and take this with a grain of salt, ryujinx actually got paid by Nintendo to stop development.

stevedice,

That’s a rumor. All we know is that they talked with the dev behind closed doors and he deleted everything related to Ryujinx afterwards. Sure, they could have paid him but it’s just as likely that they just threatened him. Let’s not forget how Nintendo made its money.

audaxdreik, do games w After shutting down several popular emulators, Nintendo admits emulation is legal
@audaxdreik@pawb.social avatar

With the Switch 2 announcement, it’s kind of clear that they aren’t even trying to be a tech company anymore. While not every last one of their consoles released was a true innovation, it did feel like something that was built into part of their brand. Now we just have the Switch 2 which is mostly what you’d expect with some decent QoL upgrades.

Nintendo is pursuing the walled garden approach. You’re barely even buying a console anymore, a lot of this hardware has more or less converged. What you’re buying is access to the cultivated ecosystem. Like everything else these days, they entice you in with the big, recognizable brands and hope there’s enough else to keep you there. Emulators straight pierce that veil and it’s why they went so hard on them.

I’m not criticizing (too heavily) the people that choose to hold on to the franchises they love, but once you step outside and choose alternatives, there’s very little to bring you back. Pokemon lost me a few gens ago, honestly not the biggest Zelda fan, and Mario alone won’t do it for me. Metroid and Starfox are scattershot … Personally I’ll stick with the Steam Deck and wait for Switch 2 emulation to roll around. And if it doesn’t, there are just so many other games to play these days.

Kyrgizion,

. You’re barely even buying a console anymore, a lot of this hardware has more or less converged. What you’re buying is access to the cultivated ecosystem.

Bingo. In an age where most people’s phones have better hardware than the Switch, it’s all about access to the walled garden instead of hardware.

addie,
@addie@feddit.uk avatar

Not that I disagree with your point about walled gardens, but “better” hardware for a handheld gaming machine needs to have a decent balance between performance and battery life. Longest plane or train journey that I’m likely to take is about five hours, and I’d need to rate any gaming hardware on the ability to run for that length of time. On that basis, the Switch is pretty much optimal. My phone has a higher resolution and can probably push more frames, but it would run hot for about forty-five minutes maximum. Plus, I’d then not be able to make calls or listen to tunes at my destination.

Steam deck would probably be a better choice, though. Fuck Nintendo.

turkalino,

What walled garden are you talking about? Exclusive games? Literally every console ever made has those.

Nintendo bad for making QoL console releases? Again, Nintendo is not the only company to do that. PS4/PS5 Pro, the recent Xboxes, etc

With emulators, they’re only trying to protect their current hardware. They’ve put basically zero effort into shutting down emulators for consoles they don’t sell anymore. Yeah, I’m with everyone else in wishing they didn’t shut down the switch emulators but it’s somewhat understandable that they’re trying to protect their revenue from hardware sales

Linktank,

How do you see with your nose so far up Nintendo’s butt?

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Nintendo bad for making QoL console releases? Again, Nintendo is not the only company to do that. PS4/PS5 Pro, the recent Xboxes, etc

Nintendo has a history of doing something different each hardware generation: Snes had the 4 button + shoulder buttons controller. N64 controller was designed for someone with 3 hands, DS had 2 screens, 3DS had 3d without glasses, Wii had motion controls, Wii U the tablet controller, Switch is a console and portable… Every system had something that made it unique. What’s unique about the Switch 2?
Nintendo is not able to compete with other consoles on power, it’s the unique hardware that gives a reason to own it over something else.

They’ve put basically zero effort into shutting down emulators for consoles they don’t sell anymore.

Technically correct. They may not be shutting down emulators, but if they hear a whisper of a ROM for Mappy Land on the NES they have their lawyers on speed dial. ( Me typing that sentence means someone from Nintendo is now watching this thread to see if anyone links to a ROM.)

HobbitFoot,

I don’t think Nintendo ever tried to be a tech company. They have always been a game company first and foremost. If they were ever a kind of tech company, the closest analogy would be Apple, another company that focused on consumer electronics.

Linktank,

I wouldn’t say ALWAYS, seeing as how they also tried their hand at taxis and love hotels for a while there.

barnaclebutt, do games w YouTuber Faces Possible Jail Time for Reviewing Gaming Handhelds

Man using a computer gets arrested for using a computer on YouTube. Amazon, seller of disgusting emulation game stealing piracy devices, is completely innocent.

secret300, do games w After shutting down several popular emulators, Nintendo admits emulation is legal

Nintendo needs to burn. The fact they can just shut down whatever they want is disgusting and needs to be stopped.

john89,

Copyright and patent laws need to die.

Lost_My_Mind, do games w YouTuber Faces Possible Jail Time for Reviewing Gaming Handhelds

Remember when Retro Game Corps almost had his youtube channel shut down by Nintendo for showing Nintendo footage on these handhelds?

Yeah…he’s probably thinking to himself “Welp. Time to retire.”

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