Absolutely agreed. I think because the gaming industry is relatively new, it lags behind other sectors on unionisation, and that is definitely something that should change. Not necessarily to emulate Hollywood, but unionisation definitely.
Yeah, that would be ideal. Although whether game artists would be best fitted to a tech workers union or an artists union (which does exist in some places) is a question that would need to be answered.
I’m sorry, but your reasoning is absolute nonsense. Maybe game developers should unionize, but suggesting that it should work like Hollywood is pretty ridiculous.
The huge studios would function just like in Hollywood.
Okay, so fuck the developers at big studios just like how most of the people working on movies get fucked now? You think because a deal was reached by the union that the big studios aren’t still just running to the bank with their loads of cash? The recent strike (and most strikes in Hollywood) were mostly about residuals. You know why? Because people who aren’t above the line in the credits get shit pay. At least in the games industry most people are employees, get paid up front, have a salary, and whether the game succeeds or flops they get their money. And most people don’t get laid off between games. You’re getting paid your salary even while there is downtime. In Hollywood, if the movie flops(*), you’re shit outta luck, my friend. Hope you’re happy with whatever you made during production and you’re able to find your next gig quick. Because you’re not an employee of the studio, you were working for a production company on this one movie and now you gotta fend for yourself because the movie’s done and so is this LLC.
(*) which brings us to the big fucking asterisk in how Hollywood “works”. Movies don’t make money. Not on paper anyway. It’s so bad, it even has its own name: Hollywood Accounting. The gist of it is that they use creative accounting techniques so that profit sharing agreements (like the residuals that were just fought so hard for by the unions) pay as little as possible.
And yeah they would want to pump out those blockbusters, but nothing would stop indie developers from developing.
What stops indie developers from developing now? Indie game developers have it way better than indie movie makers. They have better platforms for distribution, a larger audience, and much lower cost to entry.
I would allow for consistent and fair discussions for the unions and studios as to how pay will be done.
Yeah, because that’s what Hollywood is known for…
It will also put in safeties for crunch and other abuses.
Crunch (and other abuse) still happens in Hollywood production, so… Nope, sorry.
I’m just saying [the Hollywood model] makes way more sense as a model for how modern AAA games are made.
No fucking way. As someone who was a salaried employee for 15 years in the A to AAA game industry over 7 projects, some of which failed but I still got paid, with bonuses and stock awards and job security, please fucking no. I’m glad I didn’t have to fight for a new gig every couple of years and hope for residuals.
Very well said. I think there is an argument that the gaming industry would benefit from more unionisation (there are very few sectors that wouldn’t benefit from it!), but emulating Hollywood doesn’t seem like the answer.
I think it’s fair to say they’re are some significant similarities between the two industries. They both focus on large, multi year creative projects with unknown returns. I’m not sure emulating Hollywood is the answer, but they can at least look at how existing Hollywood unions have approached addressing any similar problems
Indie game developers have it way better than indie movie makers. They have better platforms for distribution...
It kills me that there's no Steam or GOG for TV and movies. My options are either Blu Rays, when they exist, or streaming, even if I buy the movie outright.
You mean delivering an actual file/media that you can watch without streaming? I know Netflix has the ability to download stuff to watch offline later. I assume other platforms support something similar. That’s pretty close to steam or gog where you don’t own a copy of the game, you own a license to use their copy.
Edit: But yes, I do sometimes wish I could pay per title and not have to worry about subscriptions to maintain access to certain things.
It's not close enough if I want to run it from a PC or Steam Deck. They only allow it on mobile where they can enforce their DRM. Then those downloads are only good for a few days before they need to be renewed and they run into all sorts of technical problems trying to enforce the DRM.
Studios actually got tired of doing this, because rehiring is expensive, and ended up on a post launch DLC pipeline to get closer to keeping everyone working.
There are some times the camera angle is changed and locked to make it 2d side scroller for certain parts, and some parts reminiscent of some arcade games like 1945 Air Force: Airplane. And “hacking” opens a mini game mode that feels like a mobile game. On top of that, the lore and story is great and gameplay is fun. There are also collectibles if that’s your thing. And it still has the classic leveling and gear progression common to JRPGs.
Artistically,it was crazy, especially in the very early game. The homage to bullet hell, then the changes of perspective, a very immersive soundtrack. At time the most “normal” action RPG yet combined with existentialism and analysis of consciousness and self sacrifice.
If you like strategy games. This is one of my favorite games of all time. I haven’t seen anything quite like it sense. Close, but nothing hit the genre mix like this game.
@JohnnyCanuck is right in a bunch of important ways, but there is one additional factor to consider. The reason the Hollywood guild system works the way it does is because no one is contracted to any given studio. It used to be that actors and writers were required to have locked-in contracts - they couldn't work for anyone else - but that hasn't been true for a long time. (There are exceptions: writers and actors can choose to have multi-picture/script deals, in exchange for an up front wad of cash, but it's not the norm outside of the really heavy hitters.)
A standard union protects a worker's existing job, and helps that worker negotiate terms for an existing job.
A Hollywood guild protects a worker's future jobs - because the one they have now will absolutely not be the one they have in 2 years, a year, maybe even in 6 months. This is the nature of the Minimum Basic Agreement (MBA): it dictates minimum terms of employment. It's not designed to give writers/actors the best deal, it's designed to give them the least shitty deal the studios will agree to.
Why does this matter?
It matters because what most people think of as "Hollywood" is all the extremely pretty, extremely powerful, extremely prolific actors and writers who make lots of money and show up on magazine covers and in media podcasts. (No writer is showing up on a magazine, I don't care how pretty he is.) But the MBA is there for the day players, the low rung people, the staff writers, the gal who had one spec script produced in her career so far.
What the WGA managed to achieve recently with its negotiations is an absolutely phenomenal success. But it still only really impacts the MBA - the minimum basic agreement!
So... uh... why does this fucking matter?
The game industry doesn't really have superstars. It doesn't have the equivalent of Tom Cruise and John August. At least not at scale. And the ones who are that shiny are usually studio heads or creative directors, not "employees." So they wouldn't be covered by a union anyway (which cannot apply to managers - i.e. anyone who has authority over other workers).
Suggesting that the game industry adopt the Hollywood guild model is to suggest forcing a pear into a box shaped like an apple. The MBA protects low level employees in their future employment, and isn't really all that great - at least not the way most non-insiders think. It still results in a ridiculous number of workers making poverty wages.
Is that what you want a game voice actor to have? A minimum basic agreement for their future employment? A programmer? A graphic designer?
No. You want them to be in a union.[1] Which will protect their current jobs and create conditions for advancement, sufficient income at the lowest tiers and long term stability. None of which the Hollywood guilds really do.
[1] The distinction between a union and a guild isn't a "real" one in modern U.S. law, strictly speaking. But conceptually, as above, a union is for people in regular employment with a single employer, and a guild is for (effectively) contract workers. The terminology of "guild" came from the older, pre-industrial idea of "the X workers guild" (masonry, carpentry, bricklaying, etc.), which were really just social organizations that sorta kinda acquired enough power to flex their muscles against the people who were contracting them by having minimum demands in solidarity within the guild (does that sound familiar...?). Guilds eventually "became" unions in the modern sense, once people were working with single employers over a long term. Put simply (and a bit stupidly), unions make contracts between workers and companies; guilds make contracts between workers and their industry. Part of the reason gig workers (Uber/Lyft/etc.) in California have been more active about getting better terms is because that state is super familiar with how guilds work, which is exactly what gig workers need, since their employment is with the industry as a whole (they can work for more than one company), not so much with a specific company. (It's also why they're having a much harder time - because California employers are super familiar with all the shenanigans Hollywood studios use to suppress the guilds that feed into them.)
Maybe I misunderstood something in your explanation. But afaik, jobs in the videogame industry are very much like freelance jobs and the position you have today is going to be very different from whatever you will be doing in 2 years or whatever. Heck, you are lucky if your contract lasts more than six months. Same for VFX jobs.
Jobs in the video game industry (especially AAA) are mostly NOT freelance. Most are full time employee positions. Even non-AAA and specialized studios that do work-for-hire tend to have employees. Certain parts of the video game industry, like art and QA tend to be contracted or outsourced, but even then the contractors are often provided through a 3rd party company that employs and provides benefits. Contracts for engineers, designers, writers come into play for shorter periods to ramp up numbers during production and fill gaps. But that’s usually a small percentage of the team.
I haven’t seen anyone mention Kenshi, so I guess I will.
Kenshi is a post-apocalyptic, RPG, RTS, city-builder hybrid. You can play as one individual character, or you can build up a squad to roam an entire continent full of towns, people, and everything else that wants nothing more than to push your face into the dirt and watch you squirm. It’s an intensely brutal game, but one with an aesthetic that I can’t get enough of.
There are different races of playable characters (from humans, to hivers, to shek, and skeletons) all with their own different stat bonuses and handicaps. If you lose a limb, you can either find someone who sells prosthetics or just leave that character crippled for the rest of the game.
There’s kind of a story, but the game is mostly just you existing in this world and learning about it. There are plenty of different factions you can join or help out, and there will be consequences for choosing a side.
It’s also incredibly moddable, with the steam workshop having thousands of mods already.
Surprised I haven’t seen I Takes Two here yet - it’s a tour de force of genres.
If you never played this game and want a close to perfect coop experience, you should definitely give this a try. It’s perfect for a session with your SO, and it doesn’t rely on neither massive skill nor gaming experience.
I loved every bit of the journey that me and my wife was on with It Takes Two.
Check out neebs gaming on YouTube. Excellent and very funny. I also highly recommend their subnautica series, not to give too much away but it follows a different script than the story in the game. It is amazing, and the quality of their videos is top tier.
Been plugging away at Armored Core 6. I’m kind of over it. It’s been a fairly average experience and at this point I’d like to wrap up the story and move on to something with a little more meat.
Uhm I’m new here. Do I tell about the game I’ve played in this week, or what will be played on the next week?
If it’s the first one, then I’m in the middle of siphoning as many titles as possible from the Karling and Makedon dynasty in Crusader Kings 3 as the Piast family with Polania/Poland. Somehow I’ve managed to create an heir from the Piast family to the Byzantine Empire just with marriage. Karling dynasty still has 2+ kingdoms and several duchies. Another priority is to take Jerusalem from the Muslims.
Games you played last week makes more sense in my opinion, since you can potentially talk more about that (since you actually played them already), but you can of course also just say what you plan on playing next, and maybe others can give tips or answer questions.
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