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MudMan, do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

Look, Valve people speak a very specific way. It takes a while to wrap your head around what they mean.

The quote you're giving me is Valve-speak for "we were cool with your double-dipping DRM back when it was free for us but we now would prefer you don't add it to your game because it makes it harder for us to sell your games on Steam Deck where we control the whole platform".

And yes, those things do apply to Steam. You absolutely don't own your Steam games. Those go away with your account, unless you're actively extracting and repackaging those files for backup. This is itself a breach of Steam's EULA and not a service they provide. It is absolutely a piracy mitigation tool and, while there is a "Offline Mode" you are not allowed or able to install or play your games without online verification as a general rule.

The notion that multiple people here are questioning the fact that Steam's DRM is, in fact, DRM because it's crackable is kind of shocking. It's a testament to their PR, for sure, but also to their ability to do long term moves due to being a private company. It didn't take a genius to understand that the real piracy dampener for PC gaming was availability, price and convenience rather than technically profiicent DRM, but it did take a competent CEO with no shareholders in his way to deploy that strategy.

But that doesn't mean it's not DRM or games-as-a-service. It absolutely is. Valve invented or perfected DRM, online distribution, battlepasses, monetized UGC and, technically NFTs. The branding exercise required to do that and still be perceived as a fan-favorite, user-first company should get a TON more credit than it does in marketing schools worldwide.

MudMan, do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

It matters because it's there. If it was meant to not be DRM it... wouldn't be DRM. That copy is very much designed to justify the fact that Steam allows games to publish with double or even triple DRM solutions under the Steam platform.

In practice, the DRM matters because it discourages keeping a backup of fully owned game files. On GOG it's trivial to backup offline installers, which are provided explicitly (and I do keep a backup of games I only own on GOG, by the way). Steam explicitly limits your access to your games and how you use them, presumably to support a secure microtransaction environment within the Steam platform. That'd be the "ensures the Steamworks features work" bit in that text.

That's extremely nontrivial for Steam, for the record. Disputing the ability to drive separate MTX under Steam is why several major publishers ended up withdrawing for a bit until they realized it's not commercially viable and Steam is effectively a quasi-monopoly on the PC platform.

MudMan, do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

I'd argue the "illegal things" fit my definition because, again, you do not lose access to legitimately purchased things for doing those things in the physical world.

Likewise for banned bought-and-sold accounts, of which there are some examples online. Selling things or telling someone your credentials is not illegal, the only basis to remove access to the account on that would be the EULA.

MudMan, do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

Cool. I don't disagree with any of that, for the record.

It's the defensiveness and outright denialism of the tradeoffs that I'm calling out, if anything.

MudMan, do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

But they did it. They made it work. Somebody else might have, I suppose, but it was literally them. EA was trying hard to push online activations and failing miserably. Download managers paired with DRM were a dime a dozen and were not making a dent. It was Steam.

They took the most anticipated game in the PC landscape and acquired the most played mod, bundled them together with their trojan horse of a DRM-cum-online store and forced the entire PC community to buy into it or be unable to play the big stuff.

That´s what they actually did in the real world. I remember, I was there.

So given that Steam absolutely counts as "shitty DRM" in my book, I'm not sure your representation fits reality. Like I said above, I buy DRM-free games whenever possible and my Steam account is still growing way faster than my GOG account despite prioritizing GOG.

MudMan, do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

"Service" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. As is the narrow band of time and games you're referring to that required online activations at all. For a long chunk of PC gaming even games with a CD key only performed an offline algorithmic check on the key.

So yeah, if you breach the EULA in a service you get banned. If you own a thing you don't get it destroyed for a separate infraction, though. Which is my point.

And honestly, I seriously doubt that they wouldn't get away with an account ban in the EU. There are many ways in which the EU does good stuff to curb abuses of so-called "services", including dragging Steam kicking and screaming into having a semi-functional return policy, but EULA-based infractions driving account bans hasn't historically been one of their pet peeves, and there are absolutely examples of people losing access to large libraries out there.

MudMan, (edited ) do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

No, wait, it literally WAS Steam. I mean, it wasn't just Steam, but those guys were there at ground level. Valve is ultimately an offshoot of Microsoft, it's not like becoming the main app store on home PCs by introducing structured DRM, sales and download management software wasn't part of their plan.

So let's be clear about what we're talking about here. Denuvo? Yep, that sort of DRM predates Steam. License limits and online activation? That's contemporary to Steam and it's the problem Steam is trying to solve. Online app stores built around DRM? Steam is as early on that race as it gets, and it's absolutely built for that purpose.

I like it as a piece of software, too, it's well made, but why whitewash it?

Plus, I have to point out that you seem to be arguing two opposite things at once. Is DRM inevitable? Well, since you seem to be correctly arguing that DRM-free alternatives do exist and seem to be financially viable... I'm gonna say no?

MudMan, do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

Right. See, you think that list of bannable reasons at the end is making this sound less dystopian and DRM-abusive and stuff?

It's kinda doing the opposite.

Don't get me wrong, most of those are scummy (not sure about the account sharing one, though), but in real life you at best get fined or banned from a store or something. Nobody comes into your house and sets your 20 year old game collection on fire for being a bit of a dick.

Which, hey, whatever, I don't expect my Steam account to get banned any time soon. But the EULA is very clear that none of those games are a thing that I own and I don't get to give them away and people don't get to inherit them eventually and if they DO decide I'm a scumbag those games are gone.

And that sounded quaint and hypothetical in the early 2000s, but dude, that account is a significant share of my assets by now. If I had bought all those games physically I could live on reselling them for months.

MudMan, do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

I do buy from GOG. It's my primary online store. I only go to the others when something isn't available there. Which is most of the time, because we live in the lamest dystopia.

For what it's worth, fanboys are gonna fanboy, but I have no need to deny Steam's conveniences to call them out on the anti-property DRM crap. Absolutely piecemeal DRM is worse. Not that Steam made it disappear, I had a game install Denuvo on me over Steam just this week.

Absolutely digitally purchasing games is better than digging up optical media for DRM checks. Absolutely it's better to have worldwide digital launches where you just... get the game the second it launches instead of running around after it like a crazy person.

But we do live in a DRM dystopia where we own nothing and are supposed to like it, the tens of thousands of dollars dumped into my Steam account will go away the moment a Steam moderator decides they don't like me and they will certainly evaporate after I'm gone, and many, many games are now lost media like we just started making TV but haven't invented video tapes yet.

All those things get to be true at the same time. I was kinda joking with my original post just to remind people that Steam was far from controversial and beloved at launch, but since we're talking about it... yeah, hell yeah, we gave up on basic ownership for the sake of convenience and Steam was absolutely part of that process.

"God damn you all to hell" indeed.

MudMan, do games w Steam's Oldest User Accounts Turn 20, Valve Celebrates With Special Digital Badges - IGN
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

I'm just here to remind people that those guys are active shills that sold out immediately back when all of us principled ones were raging about them forcing always online DRM onto Half Life 2 and actively boycotting it (and still playing a cracked copy anyway, because hey).

And you know what? We were right. Turns out it DID make everything a nightmarish hellscape of big brother-esque remote digital rights control where you never own anything you buy. Those 20 year old veterans ruined it all.

So yeah, they get a badge and I get to go "you maniacs, you blew it up!" and so on.

MudMan, do games w Baldur's Gate 3's companions were overly horny due to a bug
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

Aaaw, but I liked getting jumped by everybody immediately. Made those charisma points feel earned.

MudMan, do games w Why do modern strategy games hate the grid?
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

We're getting into the weeds of DnD now and I'm not into the tabletop side of things enough to be that guy for you, so I suggest you google these things from better sources.

But basically, as I understand it there is an open license that allows people to make RPGs based on the DnD ruleset and actually sell them. Been there for ages, it's at the core of several other popular systems, including Pathfinder's "just keep playing 3rd edition forever" take. Hasbro tried to shut that down and monetize those derivatives as part of a wider push to milk the recent mainstream popularity of DnD (on the plus side that's also how we got BG3 and the new movie, so... take the good with the bad, I guess?).

Fan pushback was swift, strong and mainstream, so I believe they pulled back on those plans for now.

MudMan, do games w Why do modern strategy games hate the grid?
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

Yeah, in Midnight Suns specifically I don't think the grid would have worked, because that game is built on grinding extra turns and extra damage from interactions, so you need to be able to line up things with each other. Like, you don't just want to hit, you want to hit so that the guy goes flying into an explosive that topples a thing that then falls on another guy. It's more of a puzzle game than anythign else sometimes. They even have a challenge mode in there with those sorts of setups.

I think it's perfectly fair to be mostly into grid tactics, it's almost a different genre. I don't think you can legitimately look at BG3 or Midnight Suns and suggest it's the same type of thing as Final Fantasy Tactics or even XCOM. There's connective tissue there, but it's like comparing, say, Devil May Cry and Tekken.

MudMan, do games w Why do modern strategy games hate the grid?
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

Hah, yeah, I guess they technically weren't. Could have fooled me, because if you didn't play those by pausing, queuing up every action and then only unpausing until you can queue up the next I don't know how your brain works. BG3 is basically a Divinity sequel, though, and it goes for that same improvised feel where you're supposed to go through the game chucking bags full of rotten fish at enemies instead of engaging with the actual combat rules. I agree that it's a very different feel in both, though.

CCG is "Collectible card games". I look at Midnight Suns as a card game with some positioning mechanics, more than a tactics game. It makes a lot more sense like that, in terms of the small puzzle-like encounters and the turn optimization and so on.

MudMan, do games w Why do modern strategy games hate the grid?
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

I feel like a lot of design decisions downstream are dependent on that choice. You could absolutely lock gridless combat to a grid, but I don't think it'd feel the same.

I'm trying to remember a game that has done that, because I'm pretty sure there's at least one.

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